Dancer Archive
Thread: FOCUS: Skill Point Cost
Chessack wrote:
Basically, skills cost should scale with how useful the skills are. IDs are just eye candy now, so they are getting skill cost reduction. If we remain just eye candy as dancers, then a skill point reduction is also in order. If we get actual useful things to do in game (which I would like to see ALL profs have, including ID) then the skill cost should stay as it is.
I have to agree with Chessack....
In the days before the Combat Upgrade, it made sense to talk about SP as being the measure of skills. After the CU, I think it is more fair to talk about Combat Levels as the appropriate measure.
There are two real "combat engame templates" today: Level 57 (master non combat, master combat), and Level 80 (master combat, negligable non-combat).
The reason I do not include hybrid support and crafting templates under 57 is that theycurrently have so little content potential in the endgame, the owners of said characters tend to either be second paid alt accounts, second force unlocked accounts, or guild utility or log in as needed accounts. If Rage of the Wookiees is any indication of what the future holds, suffice it to say that content will be tied much more closely combat ability, rather than through support and economic utility.
So rather than talk about how much a completed template in dancer should be worth in terms of SP, it might be better to think about how much a completed curriculum in dance should be worth in terms of combat skill levels given up short of 80 to pursue dance to its conclusion in mastery.
Personally, I think a maximum possible combat level of 57 for a Master Dancer is too much of a sacrifice for anyone other than the multi account user. I would rather have the maximum combat level raised to perhaps 70 or more. This of course would mean either:
1) An SP reduction for dance/entertainer skills.
or
2)Combat level utlity in dance/entertainer skills so we may gain the benefits of level mitigation and health increases.
Umi
Pro:
Reducing SP requirements would allow Entertainers to get to content through other professions, whether through combat or crafting.
Cons:
Removing SP requirements all together, without removing the ability to AFK, will compound our bot problems exponentially. Some people will have nothing better to do than create "free" Entertainer toons who spam incessantly inside cantinas, just to drive us nuts.
Rather than getting skills we've been waiting for, I'm afraid we'll be settling for what we have at less of a cost. I think Dancer and Musician deserve a better game experience.
Message Edited by Warryyr on 06-15-2005 09:31 AM
Right now my only use seems to be the ability to place theaters and cantinas.....
We just need more content and more use. I don't think we should lower the SP requirements at all. This basically would devalue us...as it devalued Image Designers (I was an image designer then and as soon as they did that so many people became one that I quit). Our only use now is to look pretty in a cantina and heal bf that is basically nonexistent. Masters of the entertainer professions have absolutely no real value anymore. Dancers and Musicians suddenly have no differing traits. This has further devalued BOTH professions. It is true that in this game combat level is basically what determines your worth. Masters are wasting valuable skillpoints by not being able to delve into combat professions to otherwise enjoy the other avenues of the game that so far have been most of the ONLY portions of the game examined and constantly renovated. How many quests do you see come out monthly for an entertainer vs combatant? Even crafters have more crafter specific quests than entertainers do.
Honestly, the inspiration buff should be solely on the ENHANCEMENT mod that we carry now because the devs forgot to delete it. By doing that, novice entertainers using up only a mere 15 skill points would no longer be able to delve into the profession for inspiring purposes only. This would make the elite entertainers more respected. I think making more worthwhile quests for entertainers, even making the entertainer terminals worth visitng and on an entertainer level increment (I can get 29k missions that I can do in 10 minutes each on regular mission terminals...yet as a master dancer I still get only 1.1-1.2k for a gig that I may be doing at a cantina that I have to travel to and dance at for 10 minutes) would somewhat help the profession. I believe that as a dancer/musician, to help there should be an alternate, entertainer's route to Jabba's throneroom full of entertainer based quests (this would be for novice dancers and musicians only). We should be able to recieve props/costumes for entertainer quests. Right now, I had to pick up pistoleer again (which I was going to do anyways with the CU) just so I could usemy ubese pants for part of my costume. Entertainers right now are extremely limited in what they can do and most are diving out of the cantinas to join in with the combat-quest oriented new SWG. I'm not really complaining about all of the combat quests...they're great! We just need more serious entertainer quests and some serious uses for musicians and dancers (separate uses). If you won't include more entertainer quests, atleast give a combat level increase for mastering the professions...or maybe an agility mod that would help in our defense. If you can't do one...do the other...and if you can't do the other, just attempt something to make us more than eyecandy.
Message Edited by Aysoru on 06-14-2005 03:39 PM
Pro: Freedom to partake in other areas of the game for personal benefit w/o sacrificing our ability to perform.
Currently, we are punished by trying to benefit from other areas of the game (combat, crafting). We are forced to sacrifice our entertaining skills to buy advancement in the other areas of progression, yet it is those other areas of the game that the game world is driven by (not by us). We have to cater to the strains and pressures of the non-Ent systems to realize any true interaction with the game world as a Performer (or Image Designer), yet to be successful against these strains and pressures, we have to abandon the very skills and play style we are trying to support.
It's a no win situation as it stands. We want to spend the majority of our game time Entertaining, yet the game world makes that very hard for us. We need first and foremost engaging and dynamic interaction with other players - which means we need to be able to interact with many different player types in many different game situations. We need to be able to have the "lifestyle" that comes with a glamorous life in show biz: clothes, big houses, fancy vehicles, and the ability to travel - this all requires an income that is much better achieved through combat or crafting.
Reducing our skill point reduction drastically is one way to allow us the option to pursue entertaining as a full time play style, with out having to sacrifice either income or survivability. Training up your combat level would give you the ability to live longer and a greater chance of surviving a combat encounter, even if you a not a very skillful combat player and try to avoid combat situations where ever possible. Training up a crafting skill greatly increases your ability to earn an income at the master level of the craft, even if you are not a very savvy trade skill player.
In the end, this just opens doors for us. It takes off the burden we have suffered from our desire to truly seek out a Social Play style.
Con: The Ent Community could take a hit in its already shaky social standing.
People don't really hire bands anymore, not like they used to... they don't really get a dance troupe to perform at their weddings and guild events anymore, nothing like we used to see at least. We had this strong for the first few months after launch and then after a series of different unfortunate developments, it increasingly declined. This left a core of Entertainers who no longer received the same treatment from other non-Ent players they had once enjoyed, but at least we still knew each other. We turned to each other and made our own micro-game community as we slipped further and further out of sync with the rest of the players. We no longer had a clear role and value in their world, so we retreated to our own.
Like all small loyal tight knit groups, we tend to lean toward elitism. 
Not everyone does what we do, so we must be special. When everyone can do what we do, will we still be special? Will anyone ever hire a band or a dance troupe again once these skills are available to all? Will it mean anything when you say "I am a Dancer" or will it just receive a "yeah, so am I" from the crowd?
This is the only real downside. No matter how it's worded, this is what our hesitations really boil down to; we don't want to be further cheapened in our credibility. However, I really do think this is a fair trade. I will be the absolute worst master combatant out there, but I will train up the skill and put in the effort just so I can wear armor and have health when I have a need to be in a dangerous spot. I might say "I am a Rifleman!", but I would suck and people would see this. They would not take me out on a hunt again after the first time. 
True performers are shown through their player skills, not their game skills. A master Dancer title doesn't make you a great performer even now... and it won't when more people are allowed the joys of entertaining with out having to sacrifice their preferred play style. Seems like a fair trade to me in the end. 
Chessack wrote:
We have gone over this before, and I suspect you will get the same answers... we need more details than just "should skill points go down." Along with what? The game otherwise staying as it is now? Other changes to the profession?
Here is why I ask: If things stay as they are now, we need a skill point reduction. Why? Because a novice with 15 pts spent can do exactly what a master can do (it takes longer, but there is no functional difference). It should not cost another 80+ points to just speed up what we do. If the entertainer profs stay as they are, I would advocate making them all be like ID in terms of cost.
HOWEVER, if things are going to change and the dancer and musician profs are going to get serious improvements, and become things that will be actually useful to master rather than just additional eye/ear candy, then skill point costs should remain high.
The bottom line is, I don't think people should be able to get nearly the same benefit for 15 points as for 85 (or so) points, so something has to give. Either the 85 points needs to be made WORTH IT, or the total cost needs to be reduced.
With politician, they got rid of the skill point cost rather than make mastering it be actually worth while. If they want to go that route with entertainers, that's fine with me.
Basically, skills cost should scale with how useful the skills are. IDs are just eye candy now, so they are getting skill cost reduction. If we remain just eye candy as dancers, then a skill point reduction is also in order. If we get actual useful things to do in game (which I would like to see ALL profs have, including ID) then the skill cost should stay as it is.
I guess that is not the kind of answer you wanted but it's all I can give you.
C
1. Beef up content to match SP cost. Make dancer and musician functionally, not just aesthtetically, different. The solution I prefer.
2. Lower skill point cost to match our content. This will be kind of like giving up, but if it becomes clear that new content is not forthcoming, I'd rather have the SP costs lowered than keep them as they are with little content.
NJ62 wrote:
My feeling is that the current arrangement is unfair. The skill point cost is not justified by profession abilities, and something's gotta give.
1. Beef up content to match SP cost. Make dancer and musician functionally, not just aesthtetically, different. The solution I prefer.
2. Lower skill point cost to match our content. This will be kind of like giving up, but if it becomes clear that new content is not forthcoming, I'd rather have the SP costs lowered than keep them as they are with little content.
NJ, your posts always seem to sum upmy feelings perfectly.
Message Edited by Jutewr on 06-20-2005 10:11 PM