Dancer Archive

I'm about to open a BIG cantina...PA Hall most likely...scouting for perfect location already. I've got a great domain name already registered for real world promotion and in-game finanacial backing for the long haul.

Goal is quality content and experience for participants...not stictly income. To that end we seek to include gambling, NPC bartenders and waitresses, vendors, a Champange Room, a dueling room, private rooms, social events for members only, and more.

Access to the club will be by paid membership ONLY and we will reserve the right to ban any member at any time for any reason. This will either be a cover charge at the door or perhaps a one time membership fee.

The big remaining issue to be decided is how to ensure ONLY top notch entertainment. I am interested in ideas on how to do this. Some ideas I have had:

1. Master entertainers pay for access to these high end clients and the right to perform in the club
2. Master Entertainers apply and are approved one by one on a personal basis
2. Form a Master Entertainers PA and limit performers to PA members only
3. Hire Dancers and Musicians

One other problem I have is...how to I keep less experienced or immature entertainers out of the club or in the least how to I keep them from performing?

I could let any entertainer pay the fee and come in as a customer...and if they perform I ban them. Or I could flat out not allow less experienced entertainers.

Thoughts?

I'm trying to come up with rational discussion here, but I keep coming back to...is that really your name? Lick MyBottom?



- J

It works doesn't is :-)

Hard to stand out in the game...the name helps A LOT. Wait until you hear the name of the club ;-)

I'm going to ignore your screen name for the moment, though it's off-putting. Your questions sounded genuine, and do have some discussion merit, so at the risk that you're just trolling (in which case, shame on you ), I'll endeavor to answer:

First, if you want quality entertainment, the best way to find it is to hook up withmusicians or dancers at other private parties, weddings, clubs, etc.- NOT cantinas. Not all of them are under exclusive contract. Look for the ones you think fit your standards. If I were doing it, I would value musicians who knew how to coordinate their songs and instruments, dancers who not only looked good and had pleasant personalities (do they actually talk to customers? Are they articulate, original?) but who also had some unique style of their own (for example, I use a snake in my act in addition to the usual smoke-bomb costume changes). Once you find one, two, or three of these and talk to them, get THEIR opinion on other entertainers who would fit your standards. Entertainers are generally pretty well informed about other performers on their server. And, frankly, you're not going to find the best in cantinas anymore.

If I were you, I would only go after Master dancers/musicians. They will have all the songs and dances on their repertoire, so a coordinated show would be easier to pull off. Even a novice musician with Music 4 isn't going to be able to do Virtuoso, so ask yourself how important it is to you.

As for charging the entertainers, I wouldn't. If they're going to work for your establishment, you either let them in free or you'll lose them. In fact, you may have to offer them a percent of the gate or a flat appearance fee to get the best. If you want them to appear badly enough, make it worth their while.

Another point: if you build anything smaller than a PA hall, it's going to be cramped. I've danced in about every house style, and the only Large that gives performers any room (this side of a PA hall) is the Tatooine Large. The others just don't cut it. And if your place is crowded, you WILL have people standing on the 'stage', crowding or blocking the entertainers. A PA hall is perfect.

For activities, I'd stress that you keep your own loose schedule for an evening's entertainment. Perhaps music and dancing for the first hour while players mingle and watch the performers. Then, open the gaming tables, then an hour or so later hold competitions. The last club I worked at held weekly "nude wrestling" matches, which were really only fist fights in underwear that excluded all TKA special attacks. Bare fists only. But even that can get boring, so be prepared with other ideas to keep your guests entertained. The lifespan of most evening's club business is 2 to 3 hours. Beyond that, many players get bored and leave or have to log for the night. (Don't forget the ones in weird time zones!)

Last point: If you intend to offer "private rooms", it's going to rest on YOUR shoulders to be sure everyone who enters your place, whether performer or guest, assures you they are over 18. You have to ask them bluntly and get a direct answer or I'd kick them out. If they tell you they're 18 and they're not, I'm not sure how much that remains your responsibility but at least you made the effort.

This is my opinion from my own experience on Kettemoor:

If you don't care about roleplaying interaction between dancers and customers then sure you might want to limit your performers to master dancers and musicians. I, however, find it relatively disheartening that people here say that.

I would say the many of the very long term solid roleplaying entertainers we have on our server haven't reached master level and thats people that started at the beginning. Why? Because they roleplay or help with the community. When I ran the Glitter Pit I wanted roleplayers, they were far more valueable to me in a club then their level of attainment. Roleplayers generally knew their dance/music better at any leveland they could truly make the clients feel special, which is worth more than special affects and costumes, its personality.

Bar none, the lousiest time I had was turning away bitchy master dancers who felt because of their status they were owed the place to dance anywhere they **edit** well wanted, and their customer interaction was lousy. These were not people who botted their way to the top. I knew them from day one, but their culture was cantina culture. The defined roleplaying by talking in an entertainment chat about costumes and fans and never developed ways to be aware and reach out to audiences. They didn't care about my club or my customers they just wanted somewhere famous to dance so they could put that in their list of accomplishments. The ego was amazing and so I hired all non masters who actually cared about backgrounds and audiences and whats more, the place they danced.

They have I think all attained master now but its for their creativity and personalities that I like them. And I see a lot of young up and coming dancers and entertainers who would automatically be passed by for gigs and cantinas because they do not have master in their name.

I find it sends a definite signal to the entertainment community with that sort of elitism. Especially since you are thinking of a PA Hall. There are 4 major areas you could have 4 separate entertainment groups (mind I'm using a Naboo hall as a pattern). The rooftop where you could have dancers under the stars or sun with a band and servers, the main room with lounges and a small staired stage, the basement with the long conference room and the first floor conference room behind the main. You could have entertainers at different levels of skills in each of these areas. Maybe the roof is for the cheap people and the novice musicians and dancers. The main floor for your skilled non masters and the other areas for your masters and special clients requiring extra service. You could even use the area to progress your dancers through and up their pay so there is a sense of accomplishment.

I think limiting to masters only will be cutting out a lot of potential entertainment and good entertainers. Then again if you have the 10 masters on hand waiting for work throw them all together and make a cantina you think others will enjoy.

What ever happens I genuinely wish you luck in making a successful cantina, because I support any thought out entertainment venue that helps game immersions and gives the entertainers more of a reason to be.

Hello there.

I see that you are on Bloodfin. I saw one of your posts on the Bloodfin boards. Anyway, I thought I would give you a little info on some of the other player run cantinas. It might help you in your planning.

Anyway, I used to dance in a club that my friends started up. They called it a brothel (hehe, it wasn't, but when we called it that, it generated more interest.). Anyway, it had a "Champagne Room", as you would call it, where some of the dancers would offer lap dances, but no cybering. If you are going to offer that sort of service, it must be stated up front what the terms are. 15k for 15 minutes, etc. That way, it is a business transaction and not something more personal. We don't need dancer stalkers. Hehe. But don't make the Champagne Room the only thing going for your club. You will have a hard time finding dancers. At the club where I danced, there were only two dancers giving lapdances. The rest of us just danced on stage. The club was well run and definatly not sleazy. The club was a fun place to hang out and onlya few patrons came for the um... extra services.

The cantina had a 300 credit cover charge and vendors inside (food, drinks, spice) and it had nice entertainment, a great atmosphere, and lots of nice patrons. Many of the UbErLeEtD00ds refused to pay the cover charge, therefore, they were not present. However, after a few great nights, the cantina hasn't really been active since. Whenever the owner sends out an invitation, tons of people show up, but that's the only time it's active. I stopped going because the club was on Naboo and I live on Tatooine now. Plus, the location is in the middle of nowhere.

As for fights and dueling, I went to a gig for the opening of another club and they had a really fun idea. They had a huge duel. Everyone who was in the club challenged everyone to a duel, waited until everyone was red, then just had a free for all. It got everyone involved (if they wanted to be) and it was tons of fun.

Bloodfin is a special server full of um... interesting people. It has more UbErLeEtD00ds than regular folks looking for a good time. It's going to be pretty hard to keep a club open without constant advertising and offering something new and different. There are almost no roleplayers on Bloodfin. I have seen only 3 people roleplay seriously and I've been playing since launch. If you are going for a roleplaying perspective, I would choose another server. Hehe.

---

Tandava wrote:

I honestly do not think that technical expertise equals entertainment value and that's the difference. I don't deny that a broad entertainment palette is nice to choose from but its also unnecessary. In a few hours of a gig you often aren't doing every dance and song known anyway.

---

While I might not take issue with an assertion that it's "nice to have", I don't agree that a broad palette is "unnecessary". It needs to be as broad as it can be, else we may as well all surrender skills back to novice and stick to Basic1.

And as a matter of fact, the only dance I don't do during a gig is lyrical/formal -- typically, most venues just don't have the room for it, but if they did I would definitely put it on the menu as I think coordinated lyrical steps are one of the most beautiful effects we have. Otherwise, yes, we have a play list we go from, with each song matched up with a dance we agree to perform. We even use Basic2 and Footloose sometimes (ick!).

What I am concerned about for his sake are 2 things. The most impossible thing all private venues have seen on our server is keeping or getting entertainers to be in a place "regularly" (i.e. not a performing troupe but a staff) and keeping the customers coming. Not a single one on our server seemed to do a successful business as a perpetual cantina. Now a lot of this I blame on travel times with a lack of shuttles to player cities and a lack of player population awareness. Only a small portion of a server population ever visits these forums, much less regularly to get the name and location of a new place. Still its there and an issue.

It's the same thing on Chilastra - but I'll say here that of the 3 or 4 regular private club gigs I've taken in the past, I would have stayed at any one of them that had (a) managed to draw a sizable clientele and (b) had some variety in the entertainment they offered patrons - beyond gambling and fireworks, or /licking the dancers. I'd even dance for a cut rate if I thought the audience was going to be large and energetic. Like you, I tend to dance more for enjoyment than anything else, and the audience is my focus when I'm dancing.

If you say only master entertainers will be on staff you are also limiting the employment pool you might need to staff it. You are to a degree limiting the contact between master and non-master entertainers, and you are assuming only those who can play every song and dance every dance are the most entertaining in the profession.

I'm not assuming that at all, really. In these days, I can't ever be sure that a Master Dancer hasn't macro'd her way up and doesn't know squat about how to play. Also, according to the numbers Holo released yesterday, Dancing is the #4 most popular profession in the game. Granted, most of them aren't Masters, but Masters have become a dime a dozen anymore.

I just disagree. Besides the fact that the top four dances of the Dance tree/Master is only one dance anyway and since it doesn't fit with most of the band music itdoesn't generally do for more than a set or two in a show (Unless you are making an exotic dance show).

AsI said, you do make some good points, and I respect your opinion. I'm not even disagreeing too vehemently However, when we sat down to draw up the list of song/dance combos, it dawned on us that Exotic can actually look good with almost every one of them - even the fast ones. We consciously decided to limit the number of Exotic routines just to maintain a fresh eye-appeal to our act.

I would take people as dancers that maybe could only dance a few sets and then they mingle during the others if they were creative, worked hard, and had a good personality. Someday they'll be master and you know they'll be good. Its good for training, exposure, to make them included etc.

I agree - if for no other reason than I like to pull the good dancers out of the cantinas, away from the corrupting influence of the AFKers It's important, though, that these non-Master performers understand that they will not be able to participate in every song. They sometimes take it personally when it's nothing of the kind - I like your idea of mingling or doing something else to help entertain until they can join in again. The performer resentment is another major reason I recommend trying to get Master entertainers. Then the issue is moot.

Besides on my suggestion he could have tons of entertainers at all levels entertaining to the various pay scales and still have his master entertainers. That might truly by offering the widest pallette of entertainment and skills rather than one set of entertainers that can do everything but only one thing at a time.

Actually, the last gig I took had planned that very thing. The problem was that the lower-skilled dancers didn't have that many options for steps to perform for each song. They had to repeat a few steps quite a bit, while the higher level groups enjoyed more flexibility.

I realize its just all opinion, and its his cantina and I wish him the best with it. Just something to consider or throw away.

I think your opinion is always worth something

Actually Tandaava, only two of us are master, and one was before joining the dancers. I know this because I've trained pretty much all of the other dancers recently in some skill or another, that was below master level.

Bar none, the lousiest time I had was turning away bitchy master dancers who felt because of their status they were owed the place to dance anywhere they **edit** well wanted, and their customer interaction was lousy. These were not people who botted their way to the top. I knew them from day one, but their culture was cantina culture.

Tandava, point taken - but wouldn't you say that what you saw was more of a personality issue rather than a direct result of their status? I'm currently in a regular band that tours all over, and we have a couple of folks who aren't Masters but are close. We do quite well in spite of that, further confirming your point. However, it also cannotbe denied that a band of musicians are limited when only some of them can play the higher level songs. Dance teams are similarly limited when they don't all have the higher dances - I've coordinated the flourishes for my Lyrical2 with another dancer's Lyrical1 and it looked ok, but she had no way of dancing with me when we shifted to Exotic.

It's not elitism as much as it is a desire to provide the very best entertainment possible from the largest performance palette possible, which is what the original poster indicated he wanted. Can non-Masters do that as well? You betcha, from a personality and devotion standpoint. From a technical standpoint, it does create problems that must be solved by the entertainer group.

Off topic, at the end of our session we usually invite audience members to come up and join us, regardless of their skill level. The band fires up SW1 and the dancers start Basic1 or 2, and it never fails to entertain the patrons. There's always a wookiee with a big gun or a Zabrak in his underwear to provide comic relief

I honestly do not think that technical expertise equals entertainment value and that's the difference. I don't deny that a broad entertainment palette is nice to choose from but its also unnecessary. In a few hours of a gig you often aren't doing every dance and song known anyway.

What I am concerned about for his sake are 2 things. The most impossible thing all private venues have seen on our server is keeping or getting entertainers to be in a place "regularly" (i.e. not a performing troupe but a staff) and keeping the customers coming. Not a single one on our server seemed to do a successful business as a perpetual cantina. Now a lot of this I blame on travel times with a lack of shuttles to player cities and a lack of player population awareness. Only a small portion of a server population ever visits these forums, much less regularly to get the name and location of a new place. Still its there and an issue.

If you say only master entertainers will be on staff you are also limiting the employment pool you might need to staff it. You are to a degree limiting the contact between master and non-master entertainers, and you are assuming only those who can play every song and dance every dance are the most entertaining in the profession.

I just disagree. Besides the fact that the top four dances of the Dance tree/Master is only one dance anyway and since it doesn't fit with most of the band music itdoesn't generally do for more than a set or two in a show (Unless you are making an exotic dance show). I would take people as dancers that maybe could only dance a few sets and then they mingle during the others if they were creative, worked hard, and had a good personality. Someday they'll be master and you know they'll be good. Its good for training, exposure, to make them included etc.

Besides on my suggestion he could have tons of entertainers at all levels entertaining to the various pay scales and still have his master entertainers. That might truly by offering the widest pallette of entertainment and skills rather than one set of entertainers that can do everything but only one thing at a time.

I realize its just all opinion, and its his cantina and I wish him the best with it. Just something to consider or throw away.