Dancer Archive
Thread: So What Will Be The Point of Being a Novice Doing Basic 2?
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 07-10-2005 10:36 AM
A Novice Weaponsmith doesn't sell many weapons. (Even though "weapons" are his only true "hook.")
Some Master Weaponsmiths don't sell many weapons because they're unenthusiastic about expanding their role in the game.
Some Master Weaponsmiths gain a large share of the market by offering the best weapons / deals on the server, even though their personality leaves much to be desired.
Some Master Weaponsmiths make smithing a hobby, and not a profession.
Substitute "Entertainer" and "Inspirations" for all weaponsmith-related terms in the above sentences and you'll realize....
It's
Just
Part
Of
Life.
**double post**
Message Edited by Schardour on 07-10-2005 12:18 PM
I'll take up your challenge, Til.
A Novice Dancer doesn't sell many buffs. (even though "buffs" are his only true "hook")
Some Master Dancers don't sell many buffs because they're unenthusiastic about expanding their role in the game.
Some Master Dancers gain a large share of the market by offering the best buffs/deals on the server,even though their personality leaves much to be desired.
Some Master Dancers make dancing a hobby, and not a profession.
So I have done as you asked. I have substituted the words, and I am wondering why these professions have to mimic the gameplay of weaponsmiths. If I wanted a game that resembles weaponsmithing, then I think I would be a weaponsmith, and not a dancer. In fact, I am a dancer specifically because it allows me to play an important role, just by being amusing. What it seems you want is a game the buffbots played of, "let's just go through the motions and get paid for buffing." Well if that's the only real way to make this a profession, then why do we even have to make patrons sit through a dance or music at all? It seems to me to be a waste of time for them, and for us.
If it is just the way it is, and I have to deal with it or quit. Then it seems to me that I should be asking the same of you, Til. If you are unhappy with the way the professions work, and have "industrialist envy," then why not go to the myriad of other professions that give you exactly the sort of gameplay you want? I am not good at the sort of game you describe above. That is why I am in this profession, because I don't want to have that sort of gameplay.
The problem is, I do expect that the extremely sweet and kind Novice Entertainer to offer the same product that a Master offers, because that Master has no real "performance ability," as judged by the patrons they encounter. Because that is what ultimately makes inspirations work today. The only real difference is a time differential, and not a difference in kind. It is something that gives the novice a game to play. Because the only game that the novice has under your vision is to "AFK until they master."
That is not acceptable to me, because there is nothing "social" about "selling buffs."
If one wants to sell for a living, there is merchant.
If one wants to buff for a living, there is Doctor.
But what else is there if you want to perform for a living?
Only these professions.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 07-10-2005 12:13 PM
My point was that they're entirely two different facets of our profession that cater to two aspects of the game. Economic survival is important for any profession. Entertainers have a second facet, and that's the social role we fulfill. I agree, if one wants to only buff for a living, then they can become doctors. I've said that many times. But we're not buffing. Inspirations aren't on the same level as buffs. Inspirations are on the level of Battle Fatigue. I'm not making a one-sided argument here. I'm not focusing solely on the social aspect of our profession, as you seem to do. I'm not focusing solely on the economic role in the game that Entertainers have to fill, as a buffbot would. I'm looking at a harmonious mix of the two playstyles. You can differentiate yourself by providing a grand performance for the masses, but you'll never see this profession become totally dependent on the aesthetic appreciations of the other players. You're playing an online game with players ranging in age from 8 to 50, and from every walk of life. Very few of the rich, well-to-do patrons of the arts that you seem to think we should be catering to play online star wars games. I'm sorry if I'm being too pragmatic, but it's the god-awful truth.
By definition, a Master should be better at their trade than a Novice or Apprentice.
Economicallly speaking, that's defined with Inspiration speed.
In terms of Performance, it's defined by the number of dances one knows, and the effects they can pair with those dances.
Novices still have product and ability to offer, but it's not as grand as the offering of a Master.
It's as simple as that. You'll never see it become so complex that a Novice can provide something extremely sought after at equal or better quality than a Master. That would involve losing early skills as a player progresses, something that was thought about and abandoned before.
The point that I think you're missing in my post is...
The two playstyles don't have to conflict. Players can still participate, to some degree, because it's necessary, in the economy through the sale of Inspirations, a basic hook akin to that offered by Battle Fatigue early in the game, but aimed at a different audience.
You can still offer performance-based services to the "patrons of the arts" that you so adore and ignore the players simply looking for buffs.
Weaponsmiths have that same freedom. Artisans have that same freedom. No other profession is just as competitive economically at the Novice level as they are at the Master level. Battle Fatigue and Inspirations were both products that we sold, and a clear distinction was made based on skill level. Performance was separate from the concept of economic participation then, and it remains so with Inspirations. There's no evidence to suggest that the Inspirations coming in our future are going to act like buffs with differences in power, only in speed. The same was true of BF.
I don't see what your problem is.
Then my question is, where do you want this profession to go?
If it is a matter of inspiration speed, then I agree. It will not be as problematic.
But if it has something to do with the Master being able to duplicate everything the novice can do, plus a whole lot of things the novice cannot do, then what have we really turned this profession into, other than an attempt to unattend to master status, and sellinspiration cycles?
The entire profession to some of us seems to hinge on AFK. But what is an AFK entertainer other than an entertainer that refuses to even try and be entertaining? I honestly believe that despite what we hear proclaimed on the boards from our detractors--all other things being equal--patrons will prefer to see that whatever time that is spent there was done in an amusing way on their behalf.
But that's the key. All other things have to be equal. If inspirations are to be a legitimate "hook," then that hook cannot be the exclusive property of the highest level dancer in the venue, or on the server. All must have an equally strong hook, no matter what the level, or otherwise we really haven't given the novice any way to get an audience, or any game to play other than, "AFK to master, so one can start playing," and we haven't given the Master any game to play other than, "exist, macro, and collect /covercharge."
Sirii, I've always tried to consider what everyone in here says on an issue and keep straight who feels what, but you've lost me on this one.
Contrast this:
PoetDancer wrote:
So I have done as you asked. I have substituted the words, and I am wondering why these professions have to mimic the gameplay of weaponsmiths. If I wanted a game that resembles weaponsmithing, then I think I would be a weaponsmith, and not a dancer.
PoetDancer wrote:
Which brings up an interesting dillema. On the one hand, many of us (myself, Sal'tee, FFW), view the profession as our "role" and "calling" within the game. The cantina is a place of work, and our "crafting station."
~*snip*~
[more on your group]
Some want these professions and the venues to be about playing a vocation that is just as valid as Armoursmith, or Pilot.
PoetDancer wrote:
5) There is a lot of talk about this "third space" theory, and it seems that most entertainers who want the cantina to be a "third space" for them are not considering we who wish the cantina to be a "second space," or a vocational space. To me, I don't go to the cantina to "hang out." If I wanted to do that, I'd be a rifleman, or Teras Kasi, and I'd be the one who is relaxing, and not working for tips.
If you are saying something else though, I'm really confizzled. 
Panthu, I am glad you are asking me. In fact, I think this thread is getting to the heart of what I thinkare the true issues at stake, and the issue that divides many of us here.
I want to be paid for cracking jokes in the cantina. I want to be an entertainer so I can actually amuse the patrons while they get the things they go to the cantina to get. I look at the profession in these terms. When a patron comes in the door, the thing that goes through my mind is, "what can I do to get this fellow to tip me?" This usually means I have to say and do things that I think might get me tipped or watched, so that the patron can enjoy themselves for the time that they are there. Sometimes I succeed. Other times, I fail. But to me, its the only real thing that makes the profession a challenge. So I think of myself as a professional, since I hone my technique. And the skill boxes and level progression gives me more tools in which to amuse an audience, such as lights and dances.
And though I consider myself a professional like a weaponsmith, the great thing about these professions is that I would have hoped I wouldn't have to play a weaponsmith's game to be professional. I never had to before. The closest thing we had to that was the pre-CU buffing game. And the bad thing about that phase was that nobody really saw the need to create a show, or to amuse anyone, or do anything except give and receive "/" commands. For sure, some wanted to create a show, and some wanted to see amusement in the cantina, but those things could just as easily be dispensed with, since they really didn't have much to do with the things that were given and received in the cantina.
Many of us say, "but nobody really cares about that anymore," or "patrons just want to pay for 'goodies' and leave," or, "that is forcing a playstyle nobody really wants but you," or, "what about we entertainers who do not feel we have to do that in order to be a dancer." I have found that these statements do not explain the truth, but only part of it.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 07-10-2005 03:24 PM
Schardour wrote:
The two playstyles don't have to conflict. Players can still participate, to some degree, because it's necessary, in the economy through the sale of Inspirations, a basic hook akin to that offered by Battle Fatigue early in the game, but aimed at a different audience.
The problem I have is this, Til. We have multiple playstyles in the game. And it is exactly why we have multiple professions.
I don't see how an artisan game is naturally "set up" to promote an entertainer-like playstyle. And yet we who are in these professions want to incorporate artisan style gameplay?
I don't see how a medical game is naturally "set up" to promote entertainer-like gameplay. And yet we who are in these professions want to incorporate doctor style gameplay?
This gameplay is unique in that our duties are roleplay based, and character driven. I cannot say that for the other 20-odd professions out there. Which means that if those players who select these professions specifically for the fact that they will have a game that depends in great measure on roleplay skills, creative skills, and character driven skills, where else will they go?
Schardour wrote:
A Novice Weaponsmith doesn'tOh sell many weapons. (Even though "weapons" are his only true "hook.")
Some Master Weaponsmiths don't sell many weapons because they're unenthusiastic about expanding their role in the game.
Some Master Weaponsmiths gain a large share of the market by offering the best weapons / deals on the server, even though their personality leaves much to be desired.
Some Master Weaponsmiths make smithing a hobby, and not a profession.
Substitute "Entertainer" and "Inspirations" for all weaponsmith-related terms in the above sentences and you'll realize....
It's
Just
Part
Of
Life.
You can't expect an extremely sweet and kind novice entertainer to offer the same product that a Master offers, even if that Master has no real "performance ability," as judged by yourself. Inspirations were included as a form of rudimentary income for the entertainer. It's a product that's sold. It's not grand artistic expression. Battle Fatigue was not an opportunity for grand artistic expression. It's not complexinterdependency. It's basic game survival. Rent has to be paid, clothing purchased, etc. (Expenses for an entertainer are relatively low, so don't expect to be grantedoutrageouslyhigh levels of income.)
The developers have defined us as a social profession, and not as a healing profession. We're not a heavy support profession. No matter how much you delude yourselves into thinking we're an integral part of the entire game, we're really not. BOTH Inspirations and Battle Fatigue were soft reminders to the rest of the population that we, entertainers,have living expenses. They're invitations to "the show." "The show" is something that most entertainers make a hobby of in SWG...they rarelyget richfrom it. "The show" is a social aspect of the game, and not an economic player. You can't place Inspirations and "the show" in the same psycho-analysis of the combatant because they're two fundamentally different animals. Inspirations and BF....those were simple hooks, as Sultrina said. One has replaced the other, and our hook is no longer associated with a negative experience. It's just as simplistic and unnecessary as BF, but it's not perceived as a wound. It's not a universally forced trip to the cantina.
Look at your post and tell me....is your problem with Inspirations or Uninspired Dancers?
You can compete on both levels. Only the latter, found in overwhelming numbers in the form of unattended characters,is harmful to the reputation of the profession.
Oh come on please. Does a Master Weaponsmith make his weapons AFK and Spams all the time NO HE DOESN"T. I t.ake it you want the buff bots back ?
And the problem highlighted in the original post seems to have been lost on you, surely its the AFK spamming thats the problem. Can you REALLY defend that, Its uneccessary, intrusive and in my book it's harrasment.
Sirii, I apologize in advance for not speaking directly to your points right way, but I just can't get past this. When I read your post above all I can think is "and what is it exactly she thinks the rest of us do?"
I mean, I spend a lot of time on my costumes. I spend a lot of time on my dancing. I always make an effort to entertain and draw out patrons in the cantinas. Pretty much all of my money has been made in game with either tips or gifts.
I know that Til, Esh, Drygo, almost everyone else who posts in here does these same things. What is it exactly that you feel like we are doing differently?
Oh, I completely agree that the profession is social at its core, but every profession in the game must be able to participate in the economy in some way, and at all levels of skill. Higher skill levels may extend greater proficiency in that process, but all levels should be able to work / perform a taskfor a living. However, if you want the social players to have a wider audience, you have toencourage those that wouldn't normally visit the cantina to come into our house and provide us with gameplay. That's where the idea of a positive "hook" such as Inspirations becomes useful. As long as it's not a truly competitive process (which I doubt will happen, given the size of our current bonus-blessings), it's a soft reminder that entertainers are here to entertain other players, and not just themselves. The audience is greater than groupchat.
PoetDancer wrote:
This gameplay is unique in that our duties are roleplay based, and character driven. I cannot say that for the other 20-odd professions out there. Which means that if those players who select these professions specifically for the fact that they will have a game that depends in great measure on roleplay skills, creative skills, and character driven skills, where else will they go?
) Any amount on the doctor bill is "too much for that quack," and I sure as hell don't leave a tip for speedy service in their office. 