Dancer Archive
Thread: WHY DID ENTERTAINERS GET CAST ASIDE IN THE CU? SOME IDEAS TO MAKE IT BETTER.....:)
Tegman wrote:
- People in an entertainer group can't aid another in the entertainer group if that person is attacked.
Tegman wrote:
Some ideas:
*Make it so we can deside who to buff.
So is dancing then worthless? Part of the reason I feel many feel dancing was worth nothing was that for over a year, we really had no reason to care who we danced for, where we danced, or why we danced. We simply just set a macro and waited until somebody said "can u buff me," or "/invite plz." I am of the opinion that our dance should not be simply a thing we do as a condition for something else we'd rather do, but rather, something that we do and maintain doing because we want to. We have controls on who gets mechanics. It is called /stopdance.
I actually enjoy the passive system we have now. It makes my dance worth something. And I make the decision every time I am performing who I do and do not buff. Because I decide whether to dance or not dance. On top of that, we have /deny. A command I rarely use, but is nevertheless there.
Now I do agree with you that it may be in our interest to have greater tools in order to understand who we are buffing. Perhaps a system message, "[player name] is watching you." That way, we will be in a greater position to understand the cantina dynamics. But fankly, I am very, very skeptical at the possibility of another "/" or radial command that gives us an illusion of control. Because all this does is just make our dance worthless for the sake of something we can sell that has nothing to do with dance.
Tegman wrote:
*Make it so battle fatigue only can be healed in the cantina, and by entertainers and that BF reduces a characters accuracy and speed (combat-wise). That way entertainers would get a more important role.
I have yet to see any doccumentation of what BF does or does not do in this new system. It would be interesting to find out. Right now, it seems that we are all just "dancing in the dark" regarding BF. But I agree that BF is not important to this game because it gives us something to do. I would argue that even if entertainment was never a factor in the game, a combat simulation in a persistant world would have to create something like BF to simulate the condition of stress under fire for prolonged periods. Even the best troops cannot maintain peak efficiency indefinately, and that is why the first rate armies and navies of the world take morale issues and combat rotation very seriously. From a design perspective, BF also provides a much needed rotational mechanic to ensure that one or a few players are not hogging content and POIs that others wish to visit undisturbed.
Tegman wrote:
*Make some drinks that only are sold in the cantina by the bartender which can help the buyer regain battlefatigue faster when watching an entertainer.
I do agree that players need more of a reason to go to the venues, and other things they can do. I used to think that perhaps it would undermine the show, but I am quickly warming up to the concept. But as far as a drink to push our patrons out of the door faster? I thought it was our job to make them wish to stay in the cantina, not figure out ways to shove them out the door faster.
Tegman wrote:
*Make it so we can have groups of 20, or even better, create a special entertainer group-mode that allows many more to group(see below).
Entertainer group:
- Allows for for people to group (20-40?)
- You can only be in a normal group OR an entertainer group.
- You must be at least novice entertainer to join.
- People in an entertainer group can't aid another in the entertainer group if that person is attacked.
- In combat every entertainer in the entertainer group is alone when it comes to aggro and xp etc, so it can't be abused. It's only meant for being able to create large entertainer groups.
When thinking about groups and group size, I wonder exactly how big we really need to be, and for what purpose. Why do we need one huge group in each venue? Why can't we have multiple groups, each of which are doing interesting things?
Yes, I have been at the Cantina Crawls, and I have seen the large groups that are there. I have also seen how we can deal with groups that outstrip the group size. We simply coordinate a show between groups through established chat channels.
Musicians, unless they get more unique instruments and sounds, can more or less portray all their unique sounds in a group of eight just as well as in a group of twenty. And moreover, it tends to make each contributor in the small band that much more essential to making the piece sound good.
Yes, it is possible to cram 20 dancers in a chorus line pretty much anywhere. In certain venues, such as the NPC stages in the theatres, one could actually fit twenty quite comfortably. But in the cantinas, hotels, and player city stages? It could get cluttered.
If its a matter of chat, I would argue that we should want to be able to talk in spatial. Certainly our patrons would appreciate it. Things such as spam ruins spatial, don't get me wrong, but this alone is not a sufficient justification in my mind to abandon spatial altogether. Spatial chat indicates to everyone around that we are live and paying attention.
I do understand that sometimes we find /groupchat appealing. I try and stay out of there in most cases, unless there is something that I really shouldn't bother patrons with, like "I'll train you in would healing 3," or "make me the leader." I know I'll get crucified here for saying it, but gabbing in /groupchat, for me at least, is a bad habit for a performer to get into, at least while performing in a venue.
Tegman wrote:
*Make it usefull to be a master dancer/musician. For example, novice entertainers shouldn't be able to provide a buff lasting for more then 1 hour, novice dancers/musicians shouldn't be able to provide buffs that lasts longer then 2 hours. And masters should be the only ones able to provide 3 hour buffs.
It seems to me the types of players that are attracted to these professions desire the master level for completely different reasons than the utility of the thing. They wanted the title, they wanted the dances, and they wanted the effects. The last months under the old system I think showed many of us that too much utility can be even more deadly to this profession than not enough utility. My only requirements is that we have:
1) A reason to put on shows.
2) A reason for patrons to want to see shows.
3) A reason for us to want to put on good shows, rather than unattend in vacant characters with no regard for aesthetics.
4) A reason for patrons to prefer seeing a good show, rather than a bad show.
What we have now accomplishes this in a manner similar to the "good old days." For you must remember that when this game launched, we looked like this:
1) Threethings we did. Two of which were understood: healing BF, and healing wounds.
2) Buffs were an almost mythic concept. We had the stats for it on our skill tally sheets,and there is some anecdotal evidence that some players did get enhanced in some way, butit was utterly passive in its application, and something that was never actually proven to be an ability we had.
3) No /deny command.
4) No entertainer terminals.
We were empoverished in many ways as compared with our experiences in the time between then and now, but those halcyon days were some of the best days to be an entertainer. No doubt, we need more things to do. But this system provides, as the developers have stated, a firm foundation that doesn't seemed contrived.
PoetDancer wrote:
If its a matter of chat, I would argue that we should want to be able to talk in spatial. Certainly our patrons would appreciate it. Things such as spam ruins spatial, don't get me wrong, but this alone is not a sufficient justification in my mind to abandon spatial altogether. Spatial chat indicates to everyone around that we are live and paying attention.
I do understand that sometimes we find /groupchat appealing. I try and stay out of there in most cases, unless there is something that I really shouldn't bother patrons with, like "I'll train you in would healing 3," or "make me the leader." I know I'll get crucified here for saying it, but gabbing in /groupchat, for me at least, is a bad habit for a performer to get into, at least while performing in a venue.
I agree with you here alot... I don't think we should be "Hideing" in /group chat.. we are in cantinas to entertain people, and Tho are dances/Music is(are??) nice. sometimes thats just not enough... I have heard some very funny connversations in /groupchat and I think we need to bring that out into the open for eveyone to get into and enjoy.
Tegman wrote:
In combat every entertainer in the entertainer group is alone when it comes to aggro and xp etc, so it can't be abused. It's only meant for being able to create large entertainer groups.
I don't like this at all.
Instead I would say inthese "Party" groups, No combat xp can be gained...
Tegman wrote:
I for one, do this as a living, and I really want to be able to make money on it, as well as enjoying it. Its not a matter of being "in control", it's a matter of making us able to earn our living in some ways. We can compare it to doctors...they help people with their buffs and can deside who they want to buff, and I think we should have the same choise as them. And making them asking us if they can get a buff, that itself will encourage interacting with eachother. And I dont like the idea of having to use /deny... not my way, I'd rather have someone talking to me asking if its okay to get a buff, start a conversation and help them out
And, I think that will help us with some of the "buffbots" which is everyentertainers nightmare, right? If you have to "give them permission" (sounds so harsh hehe) then you have to be at ATK, it encourages people to be that, encourages interacting
Let's not think of what we do as being like a doctor. Let's think of what we do like being a dancer.
No doubt we wish to get paid. No doubt seeing a show should come with a price. But let's not think of what we do in terms of taking money out of our patron's bank accounts to give them a "/" on top of the same dance they can see without a "/."
Because really. That is not fair to the entertainer base classes. All they have is their show, and it isn't fair for them that we give away everything they can possibly give, and get tipped on the basis of the things they cannot give; basically giving away everything the entertainer base classhas.
That is also doesn't make sense on an intuitive level. When we go to a ballet, does one person get a different performance than the person right next to them, even though they see the same moves? Then why should /watching the same dance give different effects depending on what we do in terms of an active authorization?
No. There are better ways to get paid in the spirit of what we do that doesn't try to superimpose a doctor's game on top of ours. The desire to have a doctor's game should be fufilled by the opportunity to be a doctor.
In fact, the closest thing entertainers resemble in the real world to SWG professions are not doctors, but bounty hunters. Paid professionals who are hired on to do a specific, highly skilled job. Just as bounty hunters have their own subsystem or meta game, soshould we.
What we need is more of a game than, "start a macro, and wait for a request to grant a '/'." We need our own entertainment subsystem in the economy. Filled with system driven incentives, our own entertainer credit sinks and time sinks, a system driven rotational mechanic, and a reward forthose who vigorously pursue creating performances, and not for "generating goodies."
What followsis how I would personally like our game to resemble:
Imagine working hard, promoting your show in our classic sense now, and upon having enough patrons /watch or /listen, and paying a steep fee (say 15,000 credits), you become a member of the "Entertainer's Union."
Now its time for the BIG SHOW!
Imagine getting a band with musicians, dancers, and others who have their union cards as well.
Imagine the group leader goes to the mission terminal and books a show at the Coronet Cantina, the Tyrena hotel, a player city venue, or even a faction base (potential GCW tie here).
Let's say you book the Coronet Cantina at prime time for 30 minutes.
Imagine after the mission is taken, the system asks the leader for the band's name.
Imagine this name will be on every starport holonet terminal, showing the time, the venue booked, and the admission fee. It also shows your troupe's name on a scrolling marquee.
Then before the show, it will be time to go to the stage manager and pick up your items. Maybe the head musician wants to rent a...(you guessed it) Xantha! Maybe the wookiee male dancer will want the Krayt Dragon costume. Maybe the females will want the Peko Peko costume with the feathers and masque. But it all costs money, and must be returned at a set time, or get hit with a fine.
Twominutes before the show, the "bouncers" kick out all the AFK layabouts and bums to make way for your show.
Inconvenient? Of course not! After all, there are many venues they can visit Or even AFK in some home somewhere away from prying eyes if they do not wish to be kicked out. Missions and trainers? Well, 1000 credits isn't that much to pay. Besides, they can wait until the "off show" time.
Because two minutes later, patrons will be able to come inside for a mere 1000 credits, and get DOUBLE the mechanics of what we usually give, both in terms of length, and effect.
And 30 minutes later, after a hard, non-stop performance,you get paid...paid BIG.
...because ifyou stop the show for more than one minute, or if you fail to show up at all, thenyou'll loseyour union card, and have to work two bit joints, starports, and as an opening act for the other union performers going up 30 minutes after the gig you were supposed to be at would have ended so you can get a new union card.
Now. If we had a game like this, dears. Do you think we would be complaining that there is nothing to do?
I sure wouldn't.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 05-06-2005 04:03 PM
Yay, so glad it came up to discussion
I agree, some stuff that I said is just things I've thrown up in the air for us to start talking about, and after reading all you have written, I see some very good ideas and thoughts To me entertaining is so much more then buffing others and just standing around. I play ATK, and I treasure this pofession, I would never give it up.
I agree that we need to take groupchat out in the open, but I also think its great to be able to have groupchat, for technical stuff, so we can roleplay in spatial.
I really want the cantinas to come more alive, and yes, the stuff about not being able to help a fellow entertainer, came out wrong. It would be better if one, for example, didnt gain any XP when in "party-group" other then entertainer XP of course. Not being able to aid eachother wouldfeel weird...
I for one, do this as a living, and I really want to be able to make money on it, as well as enjoying it. Its not a matter of being "in control", it's a matter of making us able to earn our living in some ways. We can compare it to doctors...they help people with their buffs and can deside who they want to buff, and I think we should have the same choise as them. And making them asking us if they can get a buff, that itself will encourage interacting with eachother. And I dont like the idea of having to use /deny... not my way, I'd rather have someone talking to me asking if its okay to get a buff, start a conversation and help them out
And, I think that will help us with some of the "buffbots" which is everyentertainers nightmare, right? If you have to "give them permission" (sounds so harsh hehe) then you have to be at ATK, it encourages people to be that, encourages interacting
Groups, yes...a group of 40 would be too much, I think a group of 20 is enough and a good size I dont know if you have done any shows or not? But its not only the ones doing the actual performing that is doing alot of work at the show, so yes, I think its important that we can have larger groups then 8 to be able to coordinate in a smoth way, but 20 is all good (not that I say that we usually have 20 peeps when performing in a show /giggle)
If you really work hard, stay at ATK and get to the top, its nice to have something special to "come to", a master title or whatever, some special skills....It encourages people to get there, and I think there should be a difference in being a novice entertainer to being a master. As it is now, this can be "abused". Theoratically, one can place a novice entertainer in each cantina, and no one else will be needed there, they do the job. Sure it takes them a few more min, but they do it. Its important to have some "candy in the end", a goal
Remember, Im taking it to the edge. but some peeps do abuse the system.../sigh
All ideas that comes up are great, so I encourage you all to keep this conversation alive! 
******************************************
--,-'-;{@
Zana Iomih - Dedicated Entertainer