Dancer Archive
Thread: Detailed proposal on how to get all the cantinas used
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Psionic_Maji
Fri Feb 25, 2005 2:00 pm
#1
Warning Math involved 
.
.I was working ona system that would reward those cantina's that were less fequently visited, and makethe system completlydynamic. For eachcantina in the galaxy imagine a pool of +25 cumunitve points per cantina. For sake of demenstration i'll stick with Naboo (Theed, Lake retreat, Keren, Kadaara, Moenia)and Coriella. (coronet, doaba, tyrnea, kor vella, vereni island). If these were the only cantinas in the galaxy we now have a pool of 250 points. (remember there are more but this is for demonstration). Each of these cantinas get a certain number of points based on percentage ofhow often they were visited. Lets say that the cantina get the following distribution of visitors:
Coronet- 50%
Tyrena - 5%
Kadaara- 5%
Doaba - 3%
Vereni Island - 2%
Theed - 15%
Keren - 10%
Kor Vella - %5
Moenia - 5%
Lake Retreat - 0%
First of all, each Cantina starts with125% scoreto buff percentage and% exp gain. (remember a 100% buff is a NORMAL buff/EXP gain, with the numberhigher then 100% is an increase, lower then 100 is a decrease)As a cantina gets used more take the starting benefit subtracted by the quantity of the total pool multiplied by how often it is visitied),
Starting benefit - (total pool * %visited) = %total
This couldbe cappedas low as 50% (in both buff score AND exp). Perhaps even have no lower cap, going as low as 0%.Patrons will want to go where there is a good buff, theentertainers where there is good exp (or not care where they go).In the above example the cantinas would have the following scores
Coronet:: 125 -(250 * .5)= 0%
Tyrena 125 - (250 * .05) = 112.5%
Kadaara125 - (250 * .05) = 112.5%
Doaba 125 - (250 * .03) = 118.5%
Vereni Island 125 - (250 * .02) = 120%
Theed 125 - (250 * .05) = 87.5%
Keren - 125 - (250 * .1) = 100%
Kadara- 125 - (250 * .05) = 112.5%
Moenia - 125 - (250 * .05) = 112.5%
Lake Retreat125 - (250 * .00) = 125%
People would then stop going to coronet and head somewhere else, lets assume they go to tyrena, now tyrena will start to go down in percentage and people would then go elsewhere again. The way to record this would be relativly simple, record how many of people are in a cantina and update this number once a minute, base that on how many people have been in the other cantinas and you will get your percentage. Perhaps update the cantina's themselves once every few hours or so.If this ever went into effect, i wouldexpect the numbers to vary wildly. As time goes on you would likly see these even out. Once these above numbersare prefectly even, all the cantinas are being visited 10% of the time. They will all give normal EXP and buffs, but in order to keep them that way, they must stay evenly visited, should one get to high or too low it will be abandoned for a time and allow it to "recharge" a bit.
Remember there are lots moreof cantinas, dathmir, tatooine, lok, naboo, endor,rori, etc. Player cities would always remain at 100%.
Doctors and med centers could get a smiliar formula for med centers, but med droids completely throw it out of whack. Could a corr bring this to the attention of the devs? :-D
Panthu
Fri Feb 25, 2005 2:52 pm
#2
Psionic_Maji wrote:
Could a corr bring this to the attention of the devs? :-D
A) Math is hard! 
B) Sart has pitched something like this as the Ent Corr... before he did, Arjun (the old Jedi Corr) pitched something sort of like it. So, while I don't know that it will ever happen just like this, it must have some merit if people keep pitching it. 
Nice write up btw!
shadowdefender
Fri Feb 25, 2005 2:58 pm
#3
This is a great idea and I would love to see something like this implemented. I am always disappointed when I go to a player city and find no one in a cantina at all.
Xyrdre
Fri Feb 25, 2005 4:23 pm
#4
Whereas there have been several versions of proposals to get people to spread out to different cantinas, all of them have always left something to be desired in my mind thusfar. And usually, I think it's been some kind of negative reinforcement that's sat wrong with me in one way or another.
The audience goes where they go for a variety of reasons, I think. Whether that was 'convenient' starport/shuttleport travel lanes and hubs, or just because they become creatures of habit. Or on the other hand, the audience may go where they expect to have the highest probability of entertainers. More likely, it's a combination of those factors. Some of that may be mutable now though, with JTL instant travel reducing the effectiveness of Coronet or Theed as central travel hubs to the rest of the galaxy - but people can be creatures of habit, especially if the other elements are still at work.
This proposal includes allowing forentertainer mechanics and experience gains to drop below the norm for their skill levels, thus 'punishing' the entertainer for going where the audience is. Which... seems a bit counter-intuitive for a performer. Seems we'd want to be playing the hotspots of the galaxy. Okay, so let's drop the idea of it going negative from 'normal' for a moment. In similar proposals in the past, the guess was that those other cantinas that got the bonuses would just become the temporary new Coronet/Theed, until their bonus died off. Resultmight be thatboth entertainers and patrons were forever trying to guess where the bonus was going to be hour by hour, and that seems like it'd make it difficult for audience and entertainer to reliably find each other in practice.
I think that perhaps the reason that we haven't found a really elegant way to get a more even distribution and desirability of visiting a variety of cantinas throughout the galaxy is that we've lacked the draw to do so. The only real game element we've had to work with to entice either ents or patrons to spread out is in manipulation of either XP, EH or buffing bonuses, or penalties to those by going to the 'overused' venues.
What though, if we had real cantina mini-games? What if we had 12 mini-games, and each cantina could have 3 of those, with some overlap, so that each cantina had a mixed offering of varied mini-games that could be played at that venue, but no one place had it all? Players wanting to play one or two particular mini-games would naturally prefer that cantina over one that had other games to play.
Ooh.. and if dreaming... what if we had different cantina interiors, so that style of venue might helpform a preference from player to playeras well? Having a mix of types of fun activities as the draw, and some aesthetic differences between the different venues, might go a really long way to opening up a much more rich and spread out cantina/social hub setting in SWG.
Psionic_Maji
Fri Feb 25, 2005 7:53 pm
#5
Whereas there have been several versions of proposals to get people to spread out to different cantinas, all of them have always left something to be desired in my mind thusfar. And usually, I think it's been some kind of negative reinforcement that's sat wrong with me in one way or another.
It would be very easy to manipulate the formula and put a cap on how low it could go. Make this cap 100% and now you have complete positive reinforcement. a &5% cap could also work, etc.You say this is negative reinforcement, but it is also positive reinforcement, rewarding going elsewhere. I was tring to draw a line and have a nice middle ground with easilly tweaked numbers. I'm trying to both penalize and reward, which is why i think it would go over well.
The audience goes where they go for a variety of reasons, I think. Whether that was 'convenient' starport/shuttleport travel lanes and hubs, or just because they become creatures of habit. Or on the other hand, the audience may go where they expect to have the highest probability of entertainers. More likely, it's a combination of those factors. Some of that may be mutable now though, with JTL instant travel reducing the effectiveness of Coronet or Theed as central travel hubs to the rest of the galaxy - but people can be creatures of habit, especially if the other elements are still at work.
I agree,if JTL wasn't out this probably wouldn't have happened. With this change /register might actually get more meaning, where people can find entertainers among various cities. The reason I included the negatives is to furtherbreak people of this habit 
, while rewarding going elsewhere.
, while rewarding going elsewhere.This proposal includes allowing forentertainer mechanics and experience gains to drop below the norm for their skill levels, thus 'punishing' the entertainer for going where the audience is. Which... seems a bit counter-intuitive for a performer. Seems we'd want to be playing the hotspots of the galaxy. Okay, so let's drop the idea of it going negative from 'normal' for a moment. In similar proposals in the past, the guess was that those other cantinas that got the bonuses would just become the temporary new Coronet/Theed, until their bonus died off. Resultmight be thatboth entertainers and patrons were forever trying to guess where the bonus was going to be hour by hour, and that seems like it'd make it difficult for audience and entertainer to reliably find each other in practice.
That is exaclty my concern as well, having no penalites and only bonuses. However, it should never be a guessing game. They should all be clearly listed on the planetary map what each one is, and talking to an ent/music/dancer trainer could give you the stats on the other cantina's in teh galaxy with a quick option to "find the cantina in most need of help". I wouldn't update the cantina's hourly, rather ever 3-6 hours, adding some stability to them, especially initially. For the first few weeks it would be crazy, lol. I think it would add long term stability though.
I think that perhaps the reason that we haven't found a really elegant way to get a more even distribution and desirability of visiting a variety of cantinas throughout the galaxy is that we've lacked the draw to do so. The only real game element we've had to work with to entice either ents or patrons to spread out is in manipulation of either XP, EH or buffing bonuses, or penalties to those by going to the 'overused' venues.
Agreed, but i thought my solution was rather elegant 
What though, if we had real cantina mini-games? What if we had 12 mini-games, and each cantina could have 3 of those, with some overlap, so that each cantina had a mixed offering of varied mini-games that could be played at that venue, but no one place had it all? Players wanting to play one or two particular mini-games would naturally prefer that cantina over one that had other games to play.
I would love to see mini-games in cantina's, i even thought of a way to put them in this sort of proposal, if the cantina drops below 90%, they are in need of repair and can't be used . However, this isn't enough drive to go hang out in Dathmir, when you can find the same game in Tyrena. It might see a little more diversity, but not on a wide scale.
. However, this isn't enough drive to go hang out in Dathmir, when you can find the same game in Tyrena. It might see a little more diversity, but not on a wide scale.Ooh.. and if dreaming... what if we had different cantina interiors, so that style of venue might helpform a preference from player to playeras well? Having a mix of types of fun activities as the draw, and some aesthetic differences between the different venues, might go a really long way to opening up a much more rich and spread out cantina/social hub setting in SWG.
This would beamazing as well, but by itself is not enough unfortunatly :-/.
Message Edited by Psionic_Maji on 02-25-2005 06:56 PM
Xyrdre
Fri Feb 25, 2005 9:24 pm
#6
Psionic_Maji wrote:
Agreed, but i thought my solution was rather elegant
Oh, I didn't mean to say that your ideas in particular weren't elegant. I think you did a good job with a well-thought out starting point for consideration.I meant to use'elegant' more in a general way, in the sense of not having drawbacks to be weighed against.
It's been a really long week... sorry if I was unclear in my intended meaning.
Psionic_Maji
Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:55 pm
#7
No, problem. I just wantt o see all of the cantina's being used. I am alsoa dancer myself.
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