Dancer Archive
Thread: Idea for solving AFK macroing For players and DEVs alike to read
"I will play the game the smart way and actually enjoy playing the game instead of being forced to grind out 200k+ entertainer xp just because some a$$hole thinks I should sit at the computer and watch the same dance moves over and over... or listen to the same songs over and over and over and over. "
If earning the entertainment exp is a 'grind' for you, you're in the wrong profession. I'm pretty sure that the people who actually *play* entertainers and enjoy it didn't see it as 'a grind'. I know I didn't.
Sounds more like you're in the wrong profession.
BTW, the EULA does mention that unattended gameplay is not permitted. Those of you saying that the macro system is ok because it's an in game system apparently missed the bit about 'unattended gameplay'.
There wasn't a statement saying 'unattended gameplay, unless you use the in game macro system, then it's ok'. There was also a quote from a dev post on the dev board which specifically mentions afk dancing as something they didn't intend.
That's their choice. They have their reasons for gaining those professions and the skills it entails. Maybe they don't want to socialize and are just getting the profession to heal their groups/PA hunts out in the wilderness. Surely not for free money. Most people don't tip the AFK entertainers.
I've got 12 years of roleplaying experience... I don't think I need to sit in a cantina for four hours a night, seven days a week, pushing the same **edit** buttons over and over again just to learn how to socialize. What about when an entertainer moves from one planet to another? That would be a whole new group of locals to deal with... should they surrender all their skills and start over so they can learn who the locals/regulars are and learn the contacts in the area?
I am and will continue to macro-afk my entertainer through the Musican and Dancing Knowledge skill trees. Because I don't want to sit in the same spot pushing buttons over and over listening to the childish chatter that plagues the popular cantinas. And in the backwater planets like Talus, there's no one to talk to except for the rare explorer that stops in just out of curiosity. Most people are ingrained to just hop a shuttle ot Coronet on Correlia to get entertained.
As for my server... my entertainer is on Wanderhome. My medic/pistoleer is on Starsider. Neither is named Sorrow. That was my first failed character on Eclipse.
Then don't be suprised if people who didn't macro their way to Entertainer or Master don't give you much respect. You've turned your back on the profession community and those who would come to the cantina.
As to moving to another cantina or area, you still have to be present and dance there and socialize, and yes learn a whole new set of information but because you're coming into a new place with all the old information too, you're that much more valuable for the community. You come in without that information or history and entertainers who are present do pass around information to each other they'll know just what kind of a dancer or enterainer you might be. One who engages and roleplays and adds to the game paradigm with creative input, or someone who just wants to grind for their own goals and don't care for entertaing. And if you have those high level songs in music and those high level dances but don't know what flourish goes best with what then you make yourself very apparent to those who take hours (yes hours) in game playing with choreography and finding ways to try to live the profession in a realistic way.
Do what you want, but understand the impact you make on other performers and the community in general for your choices so you know where its coming from.
Sorrow_of_Bestine wrote:
*yawns* You will never convince me that afk-macro'ing is bad for the entertainer profession. It's merely a tool that can used or abused. And you want to take away that tool from the people that use it responsibly, just because some people are idiots and use it irresponsibly. Deal with it. It's just a tool. I use it to make my gaming experience more fun.
So your mind is made up and you have absolutely no room for discussion? Isn't that what you're saying? Then you're going to turn around and try to convince us that running a BOT is the same thing as playing a game, and is actually fun?
Here's a tip for you: Most copies of Windows now come with eitherWord. Write yourself a little macro, start it running and go watch your movie. You will have accomplished just as much. Yep, sounds like fun to me.
Meanwhile, your insensitivity to the opinions of the MAJORITY of us who actually love Dancer or Musician and want to see it play an important part in the game world has spoken for itself. Your obvious misinformation on what it means to actually entertain is another brick in the wall that we see building over on the main board. Read a few threads over there and then tell me that most players don't already resent you.
Honestly.
Macro-afk'ing as an entertainer does not effect you in any shape, fashion, or form.
Good lord. With all the controversy here and on the main boards, I cannot believe you would actually say something like that.
AFK'ing has already done a great deal of damage to our image, for your information. Maybe you're oblivious to it or just don't care. Fine. Live in your little dream world if you want, but don't call it real.
How to add to what has already been said..
It's sad when a patron has to ask "Who is actually here" and out of a room often entertainers, only one is at the keyboard.
It's sad when a novice comes into the cantina, and a week later they've earned master dancer.
It's even more sad when that master asks you what the pretty lights are, and if they do them to.
Quite frankly, I am tired. I am tired of seeing a LAMEr achieve in a week what it took me three months of hard work to, I am tired of people thinking of me as a simple bot, and I am tired of the flak entertainers take. But I'm still here because I love my profession and there are afew people who appreciate what I and my friends do. If you're a LAMEr, scroll through your spatial chat.. I have quite a few patrons who tend to spit at all the AFKMrs and then proceed to laugh at them. And then I get the tip.
But some of you will say that macros are there, and since they exist they will be abused - and since the devs put them in there, then it must be all right. Well, last I heard the devs tend to take out exploits; this is just a much harder exploit to target since macros themselves area vital part of the game. A post earlier mentioned that a dev said they never intended for AFK-macroing.. doesn't that give you a clear picture? The entertainer is standing there getting 'free' experience, minus the twenty minutes it took to write the macro. At least the other exploits require you to be at the keyboard...
Let me end with an example from my cantina:
A novice entertainer arrives one day and starts playing music. He's very nice and friendly. He's there the next day, except now he's AFK and macroing. It turns out he's never there, and always on, morning noon and night. After a couple days his macro includes a /wave and /bow, and automated group joining. A week later, he's a novice musician and his macro includes asking the customers how their day is and responded "Oh cool", no matter how the person replied. He constantly switches music and announces every song. He even pretends to go AFK, saying he has to leave for a bit. Finally, he reaches master musician; and what does he do? Extend the macro so it includes the higher level songs and pulls out a nalargon. He's still never there. He didn't do it to bypass the work. So why?
I do not agree with the grind it takes to get to the new songs and dances. And I can easilly spend an evening working with a song or two to make a series of good flourishes. The same for dances. It's not that hard to play an entertainer.
*sighs* I don't even have any of the skills yet for the "pretty lights" and I know what they are. That is not a symptom of afk-macro'ing by itself. It's mostly just idiocy and a lack of common sense. There are people that don't know what Mask Scent is and they've got Exploration IV.
I spent maybe 20 minutes looking through the dancer/musician skill lists and read the little descriptions of the special abilities you get by mousing over them (some people may not have the common sense to do this). I can name almost any instrument you pull out, yet I don't have all the skills to play them yet.
So don't claim that just because people macro afk that they're ignorant. It's just a matter of taking a bit of time to read some skills. Anyone can ignore those skill descriptions... not just people that macro afk.
"He's still never there. He didn't do it to bypass the work. So why?"
I don't know. I'm not a mind reader. Why don't you send his character an e-mail and find out? Maybe it would give you some insight to one of the reasons some people like to macro afk. At least his macro is very well thought out and he can pass for an npc entertainer. I bet some of the people that play the game at oddball times are glad to find him there.
It's up to the individual entertainer to prove they're nothing more than a bot. Not even the most elegant macro can truly replace well thought out roleplaying. I don't even bother with any emotes, group joing, etc. in my macros. I just make them loop and pause for resting. And sit in a corner somewhere, way back in the back of the cantina. People coming in to look for an entertainer have to work to find me if they want to listen to an afk'er. I don't mind leaving my computer on running swg for the night. Especially in backwater places like Nashal on Talus. Almost all the time, I'm the only entertainer there.
If they remove being able to macro afk, it'll just serve to cram everyone into already overpopulated cities.
So don't claim that just because people macro afk that they're ignorant. It's just a matter of taking a bit of time to read some skills. Anyone can ignore those skill descriptions... not just people that macro afk.
Let me ask you a question, Sorrow. How many paid gigs have you done so far? Has someone paid you 5k or 10k to perform at their wedding, or maybe a grand opening for a private cantina? I've gotten as much as 25k for a private party (plus tips), and I take it as a personal responsibility to put on as professional a show as I possibly can.
It's in venues like these that we learn who the real Masters are. I cannot count the times I've shown up expecting to work within coordinated routines with people who know what the hell they're doing, and come away simply disgusted because half the group has never taken the time to practice and experiment with their skills - because they've been AFK all the way up the tree! They would be the ones who agree with you that it's just a matter of pushing buttons. And they stink.
At my last gig, one of the novice musicians got angry because the 3 Master Musicians wanted to play higher level songs and he wanted them to play SW1. (For a paid gig!? ) Another time, the dancer who was leading the /bandflos kept doing flourishes 5, 6, 7 in Exotic, even though it was patently obvious they were never really part of Exotic. Doing popular or rhythmic flourishes in the midst of the slow, sensual Exotic move destroys the visual. I've seen bands struggle when one of their number doesn't know how to stop playing, has never done a graduated step-in on a song, and will often play the WRONG song. They expect to get paid for this?
Maybe in the chaotic world of public cantina dancing you can say it doesn't matter whether you are there at your keyboard (though I think it still makes all of us look like fools). But once you reach Master in a day or two, how foolish are you going to look when you show up at a paid gig and don't know how to play as part of a group?
Don't tell us it doesn't matter. What you're really saying is, "I don't know how it matters". It matters plenty.
I bet people that did not macro-afk still try to do flourishes 5,6,7,8 with Exotic. Some people just don't have that much common sense. Nor do they probably care at all. You cannot place all the blame for the reputation dancers get on macro-afk'ers. There are tons of entertainers that macro-afk and you probably don't notice all of them. A lot of them probably do it in their own home.
"It matters plenty." - Sinda
Whether it's an afk'er or someone just plain stupid... it doesn't matter at all. Take the time to teach them how to play/dance better and you just improve the overall quality of entertainers. By ignoring them, ridiculing them, you are creating a schism that will ultimately hurt the entertainer professsions.
That's cool about a Geisha house, Shadow, and I've been working on creating a similar kind of character, sort of. I'm curious though: how would you get the kind of reputation that would garner high-paying customers without spending a whole lot of time actually socializing in the cantinas? Sure you can advertise but why would they pay highly for service from a person they've never actually met - just seen their empty shell dancing in a corner?
Geishas spend years and years doing the lower-end entertaining and training, accompanying their mentor geishas to parties and events, building skills and a client base. The most revered and highest-paid Geishas in Kobe have been those that were good at the art of conversation and entertainment and their appointments are booked months in advance. From an rp point of view it would make more sense to work your way up the ladder in the cantinas building an actual rep then opening your own house and having the clients follow you.
And I don't care how long people have been playing rpg, mud, mmporgs, whatever, isn't the whole point in rpgs not to flex your skill muscles but actually *play a role*. Hell, I'm terrible at the rp aspect but I know that.
Anyway, I could care less about how you get your clientele butI thought I'd give you a different perspective on it.
To be honest I was on the fence about afk grinding at first. Ieven gave it a try one time for a few hours just to see what it was like. The experience wasn't all *that* impressive, the tips were bubcus, and I found myself dancing facing a corner in the middle of a table. So that's not for me. But dancing in skimpy outfits isn't really for me either. So there's that.
I do have a personal issue withAfk dancers affecting our reputation, however. Someone with a VERY similar name to mine with the same race, class, gender, and profession is on the same server on the same planet usually in the same city - they're constantly afk dancing. I was in the bar in Corelia for like fourteen hours yesterday and she was too - afk the entire time. She came on once and asked to be let back in the group after we'd booted all the AFKers from it a few hours before. I know for a fact people have tipped her instead of me - one guy sent me a /tell saying he tipped the other musician so I didn't have to split it with him but I hadn't received any money - turns out he'd tipped the other one.
But it's not about the tips so much as my reputation. I don't want anyone confusing me with someone who's never there just because our names are so similar. This is my first character and the only one I've played for a significant amount of time. I'm attatched to her. I've sent a request to CS to see if I can get a T added to my name but odds are they won't do it. I'm hoping though.
To add insult to injury I've even sent her /tells apologizing for the similarity explaining that I didn't know there was an exisiting character with such a similar name - no response. I followed up with another tell a moment later - got the afk message. The only time she's ever spoken directly to me has been to complain about booting her when she was afk for more than twenty minutes. How friggin rude is that?
I've worked very hard to develop my skills as an entertainer - not just playing music, dancing, and practicing hairstyles but honing my craft in conversations with canteen clients. Learning about questions to ask the other classes to give them interesting conversation.Having never seen combat I have to learn as I go. Tossing jokes around with the other entertainers is fun too sometimes.I've been working on creating little songs to sing with the music. I've logged hours and hours at my keyboard developing skills and friendships with tired players who are too busy to make a distinction between Suuli and Sulli. Is that fair?
"So," you tell me, "Move to a different bar." First of all, why should I move? I'm the one that's spent the most actual time there? I've made a lot of friends there. I have ventured out to the smaller venues and had a nice time, met some new people. But I *like* visiting my bar.
Sure, if she were actually there people would probably confuse us and tip the wrong person but at least there wouldn't be the niggling thought in the back of my head that when I meet my mentor entertainers that they think I AFKed my way to the top. There's even the possibility of an interesting synchonized dancing Tony Orlando and Dawn kind of thing but she seems to be a jerk so that's out too.
So I'm a good example of how an afk dancer affects my life.
For the most part I honestly don't give two -bleeps- how other people play. Hey, it's their dime, like a lot of other people say. I can even understand that whole rationale about afk grinding at remote bars to help the road weary. But come on, can't we at least set some ground rules? I know that the possibility of jerks in the game is the nature of mmporg beasts but I think it's just part of the game designers' job to lower those odds as much as they can.
Yesterday there were some novice entertainers that were very nervous dancing through all the soul-less afk dancers that had parked their macroed butts front and center at the stairs. It looked sloppy, was confusing for the customers,and was upsetting to the newbies.
If I'm in a group I usually give people about fifteen minutes unless they say they're going afk for one reason or another but I have no shame about kicking afk players from a group. I've been called some pretty nasty names because of that but I could call afk players a lot more. Plus they're not there to stop me so...
This is all I ask:
- If you *insist* on AFK grinding please do it towards the back. Leave center stage for the people that are actually there.
- And, if it's not too much trouble, please don't put begs for tips in your macros.
- Don'tbe too surprised if you get kicked from a group. Feel free to ask to be put back though.
Thanks a bunch.
So that's my opinion. It's worth pretty much the paper it's written so there ya go.
I have to admit to making myself a macro sometime afterI hit novice dancer. I was so sick of hitting the buttons. I still was right behind my screen, even if quiet at times, I hate the idea of someone trying to engage conversation with me and getting nothing (zombie-affect). I did have a great time last night when my whole group apparently had gone afk. I used band flo and made all the people doing footloose "seed the grass" over and over. Payback, hehe.
I just don't have the time right now to spend hours upon hours playing SWG over and over every evening. I just started a new job that requires me to work from 3pm to 10pm and if I'm not too tired, I might spend an hour playing. Eventually I will settle down to a new schedule and either play really late nights and sleep in during the day or play before I go to work. I will spend my time going out with hunting groups and dancing and playing music for them. And once I've earned enough money, I'll open the Geisha house.
I am taking some TKA skills on the side to help with the maintenance and such, but those are hush hush. *grins* I'm also basing my geisha house idea off the style presented in the Scorpion Clan sourcebook for the Legend of the Five Rings RPG.
My whole thing with AFK macro's, is I just want to get through the boring part to where I can focus more on the roleplaying instead. If a patron seems reasonably competant at roleplaying and shows an interest in it, I will inform them of the geisha house and also I'll be looking out for other entertainers that enjoy roleplaying. Right now I'm just getting the skills I want so I can focus on roleplaying later when I know what schedule I'm going to have and can settle down to a routine.
"And I don't care how long people have been playing rpg, mud, mmporgs, whatever, isn't the whole point in rpgs not to flex your skill muscles but actually *play a role*. Hell, I'm terrible at the rp aspect but I know that." - Mrs.Pendant
Well, I was assuming people would just accept I spent most of the time actually roleplaying and not just rolling the dice. I've also been running D&D campaigns which includes playing many roles, even at the same time, for twelve years. I hate being saddled with limitations if there's a way around them. Macro-dancing while I sleep is one of them. I love being able to do that because it puts my computer to use at a time when it normally wouldn't be doing anything. And it's getting me closer to my goal.
"Someone with a VERY similar name to mine with the same race, class, gender, and profession is on the same server on the same planet usually in the same city - they're constantly afk dancing." - Mrs.Pendant
That's just really, bad luck. Odds are that's a very rare occurence and can't really be applied to the overall issue of afkmacros.
"Yesterday there were some novice entertainers that were very nervous dancing through all the soul-less afk dancers that had parked their macroed butts front and center at the stairs. It looked sloppy, was confusing for the customers, and was upsetting to the newbies." - Mrs.Pendant
And what about the non-afk dancers that park themselves at the stairs as well? Heh. I've seen it. I've seen musicians park themselves inside chairs and tables off to the sides. THe only thing about afk'ers, is you can't ask them to move.
" * If you *insist* on AFK grinding please do it towards the back. Leave center stage for the people that are actually there.
* And, if it's not too much trouble, please don't put begs for tips in your macros.
* Don't be too surprised if you get kicked from a group. Feel free to ask to be put back though." - Mrs.Pendant
Reasonable suggestions and ones that I have followed from the beginning.