Dancer Archive
Thread: Are you not getting the tips that you deserve?
It wasn't you, Cielago, but there are a number of dancers on this forum who complain that the "strippers" get more tips than the ballet dancers despite the laters having more skill. However I doubt they wonder why Britney Spears or any other teen starsells more CDs to youngmen than Pavarotti does.
And yes, I remember the Flawless Diamond posts well. Some of the newr folks may not remember them though.
To rephrase the statement which spawned all these objections, it was "Well, if you aren't getting much in tips you a) aren't very good at what you're doing, or b) are dancing in the wrong places."
- J
Sorry Leonae, I thought you were refering to me ...
If you remember FlawlessD, I think you can understand my point of view and why I am annoyed when I read Sultrina comments on the tip matter.
Fact : most players are cheap when it comes to tip and it is not because your friends or occasionaly an unknown customer do it that is the the norm and if a dancer can live by the tips and others can't that not mean they don't provide a good entertainement ! Sigh....
To rephrase the statement which spawned all these objections, it was "Well, if you aren't getting much in tips you a) aren't very good at what you're doing, or b) are dancing in the wrong places."
What about you Javier, do you think you are A or B ..from what someone suggested on the thread..I must be in the A class.
Thank you Javier, you made me smile !
I will stop to waste my time with this thread .....oh wait no.. I will throw a last line :
Sultrina which armorsmith made your nice mind shield or did you looted it ?
Issues of tipping are not limited to entertainers. While working my way through Medic and later Combat Medic I spent quite a lot of time in the Medical Centers, not to mention doing impromptu heals outside the Cantinas using my droid(s). The most I ever got tipped was 2500, and that was during a raid--I guess it was a true tip, you know, To Insure Promptness (that's right, the word's an acronym.) Usually if I got tipped it was 400 or less. I'd guess about 90% of the time all I got was a thank you, and sometimes not even that.
Obviously I don't have the scapegoat of fleshwrapped medics to pin this on, nor can I claim style of service--a heal is a heal is a heal. As far as engaging my patients, I'd say I made as much of an effort as many entertainers I see--chatting about where they're from, what brings them to wherever we happened to be, what bit them...the usual. This leads me to believe that the problem with tips is exactly what Sultrina says it is--they're voluntary. In other words, I got what I deserved, because in reality I deserved nothing.
Let's take this argument one step further--if I, as a medic, who in order to perform his duties must spend consumables which cost money to buy or produce, do not deserve anything for performing my duties, do you, as an entertainer, who does not consume anything in the performance of your duties, deserve more? I would say that you do not deserve more, but that you should get more. Yes, it's a difference in semantics, but it's a valid point nonetheless.
If you want to deserve pay wait for a player city to drop a cantina and sign a contract with the mayor. The same goes for me and my healing--I offer my services free of charge. If I wanted to get paid to do it I'd sign a contract. Or at least be up-front about it. "I'm sorry, but I can't heal you until you pay me." You can, to an extent, do the same.
I said in an earlier post that I'm a generous tipper. This is true, but it is not entirely accurate. I tip well when I receive a service--healing. When I wander into a cantina for some down time I consider it to be an even exchange--you talk to me, I talk to you, we exchange news, information, have a bit of fun (for those of you thinking I'm one of the patrons that prefers the scantily clad, /licking dancers, I'm not. I'd rather see a dancer in well coordinated outfit, like, say a luxurious gown...but that's me.) I may top off your action pool a couple times if there aren't any medics around that need the XP (at a cost of about 27 credits per charge to myself)...generally we call it even. So, again, what do you deserve? You don't expend money on consumables. Granted, those costumes cost money (I dropped over 100K on a dancer friend one night for just two outfits, so I know the pain of buying clothing) but those aren't necessary for your profession. Those are expenses you choose to take on, in the same way that my clothing (full med enhanced, all matching, coordinated with my fur) was an expense I chose to take on, but didn't need to. I wouldn't expect my patients to fork over more money simply because I'm wearing really pimp clothes that happen to have +32/+32 enhancements...why would you?
Again, before I get flamed back to the stone age, I support tipping dancers. I even tell patients with mind wounds to seek you guys out and tip well (especially if they haven't tipped me.) But just because I believe you should be tipped does not mean I believe you deserve to be tipped. And I think this is the point Sultrina was attempting to make.
Oh geeze people READ thr frigging statement before you atack it. I did't say you sucked YOU did. I said ...
Since tips are voluntary every dancer is get exactly the tips they deserve.
I have tried in vein to point out that the entertainment industry is the way it is and crying about it wont work. I have tried to point out being more versitile might raise your tips. I have tried to demonstrate a custoer has the right to tip who they chose and the only thing you can do about that is make your act pleasing to the masses. You can all asume I pantie dance and /lick people for all I care Im done wasting my time in this forum. If you all want to go on strike because you feel slighted go ahead (by the way THAT is what this forum is about) I for one will NOT participate. Now go ahead and turn this around so Im the bad person because you can't get it trhough your thick head how tiping works!
Cielago,
Point of fact I was th first, the first instance of Sultrina's dance school is 6/28/2003 and the document was also posted in beta. My school does deal with novice entertainers every lesson uses Basic and Rhythmic as examples.
Syzygy-Gorath wrote:But just because I believe you should be tipped does not mean I believe you deserve to be tipped. And I think this is the point Sultrina was attempting to make.
OK so I am confused. You say a healer SHOULD get tipped but not that they DESERVE a tip... So are you trying to say they should get tips even though they DON'T deserve it? That seems a bit odd.
Ask yourself, why do you think a healer (medic or entertainer) "should" get tips, if you don't think they "deserve" a tip? This makes very little sense to me. Sultrina has said, "You earn tips; you don't deserve them." Well I think a little trip to the dictionary is in order here. Webster's New Collegiat Dictionary says,
deserve, v.t.&i., To earn (my emphasis). To be worthy (either good or evil). To merit.
Notice the very first one, that I underlined? At least according to the dictionary, to deserve something is to have earned it. So I am not quite sure what the conflict is here over whether something is "deserved" or "earned", since according to the dictionary, at least, these mean the same thing.
I hate to play the semantics game, but y'all started it. /grin.
Now on the issue, do we deserve tips or not? The answer is, yes, and on two levels.
On level #1, we are providing a service. It is traditional at least in Western society (which is where this game is played and the society on which SW is based), that you render payment in exchange for services or commodities. A weaponsmith creates a weapon. That is a commodity. You want the weapon. How do you get it? You render payment in exchange for the weapon. He gets your money, you get his weapon, and both sides benefit. Fair exchange.
How about healing? Well, there is nothing physical with regard to healing, but a service is being rendered. You have battle fatigue. I can heal the battle fatigue by doing certain things with my character. In exchange for me bothering to stop whatever else I may be doing and heal you, and thus providing you with a service, you ought to expect to render payment for that service. Failing to do so makes the persona freeloader, a parasite, or whatever else you want to call it.
That's just one level of entertainment though (the healing) and in my opinion a minimal one. The other service being rendered by the entertainer is actual entertainment... Chatting, telling jokes, being sexy, or whatever he or she chooses to do. This is also a service, but in this case it is sort of a player-to-player service, rather than toon-to-toon (roleplay aside since it is a separate issue). Here you could just heal silently, even to the extent of being AFK, and the level 1 service (healing) is accomplished, but the entertainment is not. The person being healed would presumably be bored with lack of interaction most of the time (to the extent that they often go AFK while watching just like some of us go AFK while dancing), and would be interested with interaction. Chatting, jokes, flirting, whatever, will make the time pass quickly. Thus unpleasant boredom is transformed (by the good entertainer) into pleasant time that moves by quickly, and this too is a service for which the person ought to receive adequate reward.
Any dancer who does either 1 or 2 is providing one level of service and ought to be compensated for providing that service. Any dancer who does both is providing even better service and the compensation ought to increase accordingly. That it does not cannot be thought of, in fairness, as a reflection upon the dancer, but rather, is a highly poor reflection upon the parasite who is taking service in exchange for no payment.
Sultrina, although I highly respect your opinions and agree with almost everything else you post, I simply do not agree that not making much in tips = dancer not doing enough to earn them. As we have all seen, many fighters think that unless you risk death/cloning/insurance/item decay, you are not entitled to one thin dime. And as dancers we do not incur such risks, so to them we are entitled to nothing. To someone with that attitude, whatever the dancer does is irrelevent, and lack of being tipped cannot be construed as a poor reflection upon the dancer.
The reality is simply that most of the people who receive the service of healers (medics as well as us dancers and musicians) do not appropriately reciprocate. It is a fact. They are cheap; they look down on us; they wish there was no such thing as BF because they hate the cantina; etc. That is simple fact. No matter how good an entertainer you might be, that fact is not going to change.
There are things you can do to improve your situation (clothing, behavior, venue, etc), but there are no guarantees (as you have said) and likewise just because something works in your town, on your server, does not mean it will work everywhere.
C
I meant what I said. Let me explain. We (and I include all healers in this) do not deserve to be tipped because this is a game. This is not a real-life occupation where we do it for the money and no other reason. In this universe we do it because we want to do it. Using myself as an example, I heal because I enjoy helping others. In that respect I heal for myself, not for my patients, and therefor I do not deserve a tip. I would like to be tipped. It would be polite for my patient to tip me. But by no means are they obligated to do so. If you find that the only reason you entertain (or do anything else in this game) is for the money, you need to take a long, hard look at your character template.
As far as tipping for conversation goes...that is something I simply cannot agree with. Do you seriously mean to tell me that you want to be paid for roleplaying? What about me? Shouldn't I get tipped for being a responsive audience? What about if I chat with someone in the starport to while away that 10 minute wait? Should I tip them? Should they tip me? That's absolutely rediculous. I can see giving a larger tip to an attentive, interactive entertainer...but tipping solely for roleplay? That's absurd.
Shifting trains of thought somewhat, maybe it would be better to think of these payments as gratuities. Technically they're not tips, they're an expression of gratitude for a job done, and done well. If you feel that you are providing a service that demands recompense, state your price up front. I certainly won't be watching you, but I'm sure there are those who will. But take note, you'd better not take a break while providing them a service, and you'd better do what you claimed to be able to in the time you claimed to be able to. Me, I prefer watching/listening to and interacting with dancers and musicians who do it because they enjoy doing it, not because they expect me to pay them. I do pay them--out of gratitude. Not out of necessity.
The same goes for medics, doctors, and combat medics. If you ask me for an expensive service I expect recompense for my material cost, but I'd tell you up front. If you ask for minor heals that in reality cost me next to nothing, I don't expect anything more than a "thank you." Nor should I. To be quite honest I'd feel like a healer whore if it were any different, and I don't think I could live with that.
BTW, I never watch anyone that is AFK (unless they happen to be the only one there).
You can spend your whole life learning to play guitar and practice untill your fingers bleed. That still doesn't mean your goign to be famous. Got that? You can deticate your whole life to guitar and still get booed off the stage because people dont like your music. Harsh? Yes it is thats the entertainment biz.
real life =! game life
Ok, the customer doesn't like my show ..but he still watching me to heal his/her fatigue..why does he keep watching me if he doesn't like my performance ? And don't tell me he will prefer to watch the dancer next to me which is either afk or don't provide a much more better show than I do.
You can all asume I pantie dance and /lick people
I appologize here. I didn't meant it was your way.
I used that as an example. Once a poster came here telling "us" that if we don't get good tip it was because we did something wrong or didn't know our job.. and the way this poster was doing a good job was by playing a whore.
Again, I bow and appologize if you thought it was what I meant.