Dancer Archive
Thread: An idea to nix bots (not mine I might add but spreading the word)
Page 4 of 4
psycocat
Sat Aug 06, 2005 3:27 pm
#40
oh that is good...but it sucks for anyone doing combat. at least they are attempting to make this more a "multiplayer" game. I just wish it were less jarring....
ok back on topic. That drink Idea sounds good. It would allow chefs and entertainers more interdependence, more like what we had before. That and coupled with a radial/popup window would be good and help stem the tide of AFK-iness.
PoetDancer
Sat Aug 06, 2005 4:48 pm
#41
So if I understand this correctly, we think that this is fair to ask of our patrons just so they can get in and out of the cantina:
1) They buy a drink.
2) They are able to drink it.
3) They are able to find an entertainer before the effect wears off.
4) They /watch the dancer.
5) They askthe dancerfor a radial menu click.
6) They maintain the /watch for the proscribed time.
If any one of these is not done, in the proper sequence, and in the correct window of time, then they cannot get the thing they desire.
I am sorry, but I believe this is too much to ask of other players who visit the cantina. If we want the cantina to be a place where nothing bad happens, why are we creating an environment where so many things can go wrong unless they and we follow a "cookbook?"
The more complicated, subject to error, strict, and byzantine the procedure is just so a patron can get in and out of the cantina, the more it resembles a trip to the dentist, and not a trip to the local tavern. I'd rather our profession not be about alchemy, and making our patrons deal with "red tape," just so we can serve them. It should be about dancing.
I am all about mitigating unattended activity, and apathy in the cantina. But making things more obtuse and complicated for our patrons and ourselves is not, in my opinion, the way to do it.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 08-06-2005 06:49 PM
DanceRulez
Sun Aug 07, 2005 2:59 am
#42
No, Sirii, I don't think you understand correctly so let me clarify some points:
In a way I'm kind of surprised that you seem to have such a negative response to my idea. I know you prefer a totally passive approach where I guess neither the performer nor the patron has to do anything at all but be within range of each other and any bonuses, buffs, or benefits simply happen on their own. We've never had a system like that in this game, and I think there are flaws in such a design if it were to be implemented, but I will not discuss my thoughts on that here.
In truth, Sirii, part of my inspiration for these ideas was actually trying to take into consideration some of your views specifically as well as the general sentiments of others. Here's the thing, it's well known that in general most of us dislike the whole AFK macro thing, so I was trying to think of something that couldn't be macroed. I also know very well that you, and others, don't like the idea of having to modify your performance routines or be bothered by pop-up windows to accomodate some game mechanic.
Now we know that the devs have promised us some kind of new "non-combat buffs" even if we don't know what that means yet. It could be that whatever they're planning is some kind of single, multi-purpose buff that works like the inspiration buff. It grants many different bonuses at once, and the customer can simply use whatever enhanced abilities pertain to him or her. I think, however, that it is more likely that these new buffs will be single enhancements that affect only one skill, which means that there will have to be some way of choosing which one, or ones, you can get. If that's the case, then either the customer or the dancer will have to do something to specify which buff is bestowed.
With the above considerations in mind, I figured that the entertainer would rather not be the one who specifies which buff is given (and in fact, by your own reasoning, this would be an added source of error as the entertainer might make the wrong buff selection and fail to give the customer what he or she wanted) as that might involve performing some special dance, or song, or flourish combinations or whatever that would force us to perform in some specific way or it might involve us having to make the choice on some added ui menu or something that would be an added distraction.
That leaves the customer to be the one to decide which buffs to receive, so there has to be some way to do it. My original suggestion involved the customer selecting from some pop-up menu or something via the radial dial. I think there are systems that already work this way. My follow up idea replaces this artificial pop-up menu with something that already fits well in the cantina environment (in fact it occurred to me while I was in a cantina watching the Kreetles perform and hearing someone over at the bar asking for drink specials, and I thought to myself that it was a shame that there's no real benefit or any effect at all from having a drink in a cantina). Simply put the customer makes a buff choice simply by using a particular drink and then receives the buff when granted by an entertainer. It's really no more or less than that. I just really liked the concept that there was a reason (as in game mechanic) to enjoy a drink and a performance at a cantina and receive a benefit from it. I also liked the fact that chefs could be tied into it too.
I then suggested it here to see what others think, and maybe have Eshie pass it along to the devs if there was a positive response to it. Again, I'm sorry if you just really think it's complicated and as pleasant as a trip to the dentist. All I can say is I disagree, but please don't misrepresent my idea either. My suggestions may not be an ideal way of doing things, but I think they work rather well given the systems in place now and the problems we already have. All I can do is let others judge for themselves whether they like my ideas or not.
PoetDancer wrote:
So if I understand this correctly, we think that this is fair to ask of our patrons just so they can get in and out of the cantina:
First off, "we" have come to no such consensus. *I* have merely offered a couple of ideas that occurred to me that I kind of liked and shared them here to see what others think of them. While there were some positive comments on my version of the buffing window, there has been very little comment so far on the drinks idea. Certainly not enough people have commented on either suggestion to derive any sort of group opinion on either idea, but offhand I'd take your opinion on both to be unfavorable.
As for the comment on trying to get the patrons in and out of the cantina, I didn't say anything about that, so I have no idea where you'd get that. In fact, taken together, the point of both my ideas is to create a more "cantina-like" environment where people come in, get a drink, enjoy a show for a while and stay as long as they like while receiving some benefit from the experience. Neither of my ideas have anything to do with rushing people through the process.1) They buy a drink.2) They are able to drink it.
Yes, if you must break these down into "steps" then ok, but all chef products work like this for all kinds of buffs, so I don't expect people would have a hard time figuring out how to use a drink in the manner I was suggesting.3) They are able to find an entertainer before the effect wears off.
Calling this another "step" is kind of missing the point. The drinks I was suggesting are meant to be used in a cantina or perhaps in general in the presence of a dancer or musician. The person seeking such a buff should already be in the presence of an entertainer before deciding to use such a drink in the first place, so this would not be an issue. As far as the drink wearing off, that is just so that the system doesn't have to constantly keep track of the effect for a drink. It is not supposed to be an impediment to the process. If you use a drink without entertainers around or without intending to get a buff either accidentally or on purpose, the drink's effect will pass after some time just as any other buff or food or spice would. The intent was not that the drink gives you the buff, but that the drink "opens your mind", if you will, and the entertainer allows you to relax and receive the benefit of the buff. That's just how I think of it. Ultimately it's just a mechanic and you could think of it anyway you like.4) They /watch the dancer.
There is nothing special about this. This is the way it has always worked, and I think everyone understands how to do this (aside from any "too far away" bug issues).5) They ask the dancer for a radial menu click.
This is not exactly according to my suggestion at least. Granted I do suggest that the patron request a buff from the entertainer, probably through a radial menu option or perhaps a /-command. The dancer (or musician) has the option to accept or reject the buff request through a right click menu in a special buff window by my suggestion. This does two things. It gives the entertainer control over his or her advanced services and, as long as there or no /-commands to control or navigate the buff window, there may be no way to bot it using in-game macros. I have a few more comments on this later.6) They maintain the /watch for the prescribed time.
Again, this is the same process as has been used before and is still being used now. There is nothing complicated about it.If any one of these is not done, in the proper sequence, and in the correct window of time, then they cannot get the thing they desire.I am sorry, but I believe this is too much to ask of other players who visit the cantina. If we want the cantina to be a place where nothing bad happens, why are we creating an environment where so many things can go wrong unless they and we follow a "cookbook?"
If you're still referring to my idea, especially the drink part of it, please look back to where I said that the order should be flexible so that the drink may be used either before or after getting a buff approval from the entertainer. There are just three basic steps for the customer: use the drink, /watch or /listen to the entertainer, and request a buff. Ideally the steps could be performed in any order whatsoever, though it's possible it might work better of the buff request option isn't made available until after a /watch or /listen has already been started, but that is a detail that could easily be worked out later. There really isn't much here that can go wrong. You are, however, welcome to the opinion that this is too much to ask of a cantina patron. I don't think so at all, so I guess we just disagree on this point.
The more complicated, subject to error, strict, and byzantine the procedure is just so a patron can get in and out of the cantina, the more it resembles a trip to the dentist, and not a trip to the local tavern. I'd rather our profession not be about alchemy, and making our patrons deal with "red tape," just so we can serve them. It should be about dancing.I am all about mitigating unattended activity, and apathy in the cantina. But making things more obtuse and complicated for our patrons and ourselves is not, in my opinion, the way to do it.
You strike me as an intelligent person, Sirii, but I can never understand your view of what makes a process "complicated". I personally thought the old mind buffing system with the /setperformance command was relatively easy, yet to hear you describe it, one might think that you'd need to be a hyperspace propulsion scientist to figure it out. Yes there were bugs in the system that made it fail inexplicably sometimes, and yes you did have to guess a bit on how long to give it or how many flourishes to do, but for all the mind buffs I gave, I had very few failures and few times when my finished buff came up a little short. I knew pretty much how to give a full mind buff if I wanted to, and I don't remember ever once hearing any customer complain to me that the process was too complicated.
Yet here again, you seem to think that this process of using a drink and getting approval from an entertainer, as well as using the old /watch or /listen command, is too difficult for cantina patrons. I don't know what to say. I'm sorry you feel this way for whatever reason, but it seems to be rather simple process to me.
As far as the process itself, I think the devs have shown that they can make entertainer buffing more transparent and more reliable in the way they have implemented the inspiration buffs now. If the new buffs work similarly, the customer will know whether it's working, and can monitor the progress.
In a way I'm kind of surprised that you seem to have such a negative response to my idea. I know you prefer a totally passive approach where I guess neither the performer nor the patron has to do anything at all but be within range of each other and any bonuses, buffs, or benefits simply happen on their own. We've never had a system like that in this game, and I think there are flaws in such a design if it were to be implemented, but I will not discuss my thoughts on that here.
In truth, Sirii, part of my inspiration for these ideas was actually trying to take into consideration some of your views specifically as well as the general sentiments of others. Here's the thing, it's well known that in general most of us dislike the whole AFK macro thing, so I was trying to think of something that couldn't be macroed. I also know very well that you, and others, don't like the idea of having to modify your performance routines or be bothered by pop-up windows to accomodate some game mechanic.
Now we know that the devs have promised us some kind of new "non-combat buffs" even if we don't know what that means yet. It could be that whatever they're planning is some kind of single, multi-purpose buff that works like the inspiration buff. It grants many different bonuses at once, and the customer can simply use whatever enhanced abilities pertain to him or her. I think, however, that it is more likely that these new buffs will be single enhancements that affect only one skill, which means that there will have to be some way of choosing which one, or ones, you can get. If that's the case, then either the customer or the dancer will have to do something to specify which buff is bestowed.
With the above considerations in mind, I figured that the entertainer would rather not be the one who specifies which buff is given (and in fact, by your own reasoning, this would be an added source of error as the entertainer might make the wrong buff selection and fail to give the customer what he or she wanted) as that might involve performing some special dance, or song, or flourish combinations or whatever that would force us to perform in some specific way or it might involve us having to make the choice on some added ui menu or something that would be an added distraction.
That leaves the customer to be the one to decide which buffs to receive, so there has to be some way to do it. My original suggestion involved the customer selecting from some pop-up menu or something via the radial dial. I think there are systems that already work this way. My follow up idea replaces this artificial pop-up menu with something that already fits well in the cantina environment (in fact it occurred to me while I was in a cantina watching the Kreetles perform and hearing someone over at the bar asking for drink specials, and I thought to myself that it was a shame that there's no real benefit or any effect at all from having a drink in a cantina). Simply put the customer makes a buff choice simply by using a particular drink and then receives the buff when granted by an entertainer. It's really no more or less than that. I just really liked the concept that there was a reason (as in game mechanic) to enjoy a drink and a performance at a cantina and receive a benefit from it. I also liked the fact that chefs could be tied into it too.
I then suggested it here to see what others think, and maybe have Eshie pass it along to the devs if there was a positive response to it. Again, I'm sorry if you just really think it's complicated and as pleasant as a trip to the dentist. All I can say is I disagree, but please don't misrepresent my idea either. My suggestions may not be an ideal way of doing things, but I think they work rather well given the systems in place now and the problems we already have. All I can do is let others judge for themselves whether they like my ideas or not.
PoetDancer
Sun Aug 07, 2005 6:58 pm
#43
DanceRulez wrote:
In a way I'm kind of surprised that you seem to have such a negative response to my idea. I know you prefer a totally passive approach where I guess neither the performer nor the patron has to do anything at all but be within range of each other and any bonuses, buffs, or benefits simply happen on their own. We've never had a system like that in this game, and I think there are flaws in such a design if it were to be implemented, but I will not discuss my thoughts on that here.
It is alright, dear. Many dancers these days are not especially concerned with the profession as it is, and as it traditionally operated. But I do think it would do us well to examine what is good about the system we have, and what will be lost.
Passivity in mechanics distribution is not some sort of ideal utopic wish on my part. It is how the profession works today, and how it has always worked. How can we say that passivity is a system where nobody has to do anything when the patrons have to /watch, or /listen, and maintain that state for a given time? All passivity means is that it is the patron's responsibility to do what it takes to receive the benefits. It is not our responsibility to "give it," as much as its the patron's responsibility to "take it."
Now we can argue about putting the responsibility upon us to "grant" the buff. But how can we when over half the responsibility is on the patron to do their part?
I am sure that the patrons, if they want what we have to give them, will be able to figure out what to do, no matter what sort of byzantine, contrived, and complicated system we throw at them. But it doesn't mean they will be happy, nor will they be in any sort of state of mind to be entertained.
We as dancers really are not looking at this from the perspective of those we serve. We are pondering systems that will impact them, just as much as us, and we owe it to them to make things simple, and certain.
Many dancers want buffing to "be active." But I am wondering exactly why we are still so firm on holding on to these old passive elements like having our patrons "/watch and wait." Neither we, nor our patrons really need the old passive system of "/watch and wait,"when we are ultimately in charge of who gets a buff from us. So what is the real utility of maintaining these features, when they only make getting a buff in a cantina more complicated than it needs to be when we become active buffers?
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 08-07-2005 09:02 PM
Caerwynn
Mon Aug 08, 2005 12:22 pm
#44
Panthu wrote:
Caerwynn wrote:
With today's hotfix, xp is available only to those who are grouped.
I won't be grouping with AFK ents, one way to go to discourage them. Yes, I know it doesn't remove the mechanics of being able to AFK grind, but it is one action we can choose to take.
That's just grouped combat xp. It doesn't have an effect on Dancer at all.(Which is good, because you're right, that would suck!)
My bad, read the notes ina rush before going out.
Well, perhaps the devs might consider this option then. At least it would make it a vastly more pleasant experience for ATKers if we could do the above, leaving the AFKers out in the cold and xpless.
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