Dancer Archive
Thread: Possible solutions to the AFK/buffbot dilemma
PoetDancer
Thu Dec 30, 2004 12:21 pm
#40
If a player is still able to dispense mechanics for an entire day under the AFK banner, these solutions may not help much. Our problem was never that XP can be earned through unattendence. It was never that one can receive tips or loot while unattended. It has always been from the fact that our mechanics can just as easily be given away from the keys as at the keys. Because the people who do it really don't care about the XP or tips. They only care about creating a zone where mechanics are given out 24/7. Its a variable that is rather easily removed from their concern soley because the system allows them to do it.
Which begs the question of if an unattended dancer simply cannot earn XP or tips, it only makes it that much less sense to players that they should do the right thing by supporting their local entertainers--live or unattended status notwithstanding.
I logged on to Bria this morning. I have also logged on in the sparse hours at times. Hardly what I'd call prime time. It is one of those situations where one would say entertainers are rare and unavailable, since the hours were non-traditional.
And yet, why is it that themajority of theones I saw online on seraches or on my friends list were unattendees? Where are all these customers who need us on off hours? Rest assured I did not see them. And more to the point, what sort of motivation would any player in non-traditional hourshave to become a dancer when theservice providers outnumber the patrons ten to one in some cases?
So where is my 3AM audience? If there is an audience that needs it, I'm suresomeone would give the skill points todo it. But it really isn't worth one's time to play for the 30 odd players at wee hours, is it? Especially considering there may be as many as twice that amout of unattendees operating. And why do the unattendees outnumber the players online at 3AM?
Because they do not have the volition to decide what the best use of their time may be. They simply do what they do by an outside source who doesn't base their success or failure on howthe unattended dancerplays, but only how it creates a zone of control and predictability over one sphere of the game.
Understandable? I understand the reasons all too well. Shrewd? Certainly. If mechanics are all we are needed for, then unattended alts can do it just as well as us. But it really doesn't give us much of a game, nor much of an incentive to play these professions.
I would be fine with this profession as merely a sheer roleplay profession, with no mechanics benefit. That would eliminate a lot of the unattendees pretty quickly. I would be fine with complete passivity over our mechanical functions. While that wouldn't eliminate the unattendees, it would at least not make it seem that they were doing something special by letting the system give out "/" commands 24/7. I would be fine if the things this profession did wasn't "needed" the way you make it sound, Ihareo. But the problem with that is things soon start to become needs ifone side has access to it,and the other side does not.
But whatever the solution may be, it has to facilitate the live game at the expense of unattendence. Because unattendence doesn't need any facilitation for it to go on. Players will find ways to do it. However, the live game needs protection from unattendence, becausethe live game is dead,and more reasons to justify unattendence won't make it come back to life.
Firecat5150
Fri Dec 31, 2004 9:32 am
#41
PoetDancer wrote:If a player is still able to dispense mechanics for an entire day under the AFK banner, these solutions may not help much. Our problem was never that XP can be earned through unattendence. It was never that one can receive tips or loot while unattended. It has always been from the fact that our mechanics can just as easily be given away from the keys as at the keys. Because the people who do it really don't care about the XP or tips. They only care about creating a zone where mechanics are given out 24/7. Its a variable that is rather easily removed from their concern soley because the system allows them to do it.Which begs the question of if an unattended dancer simply cannot earn XP or tips, it only makes it that much less sense to players that they should do the right thing by supporting their local entertainers--live or unattended status notwithstanding.I logged on to Bria this morning. I have also logged on in the sparse hours at times. Hardly what I'd call prime time. It is one of those situations where one would say entertainers are rare and unavailable, since the hours were non-traditional.And yet, why is it that the majority of the ones I saw online on seraches or on my friends list were unattendees? Where are all these customers who need us on off hours? Rest assured I did not see them. And more to the point, what sort of motivation would any player in non-traditional hours have to become a dancer when the service providers outnumber the patrons ten to one in some cases?So where is my 3AM audience? If there is an audience that needs it, I'm sure someone would give the skill points to do it. But it really isn't worth one's time to play for the 30 odd players at wee hours, is it? Especially considering there may be as many as twice that amout of unattendees operating. And why do the unattendees outnumber the players online at 3AM?Because they do not have the volition to decide what the best use of their time may be. They simply do what they do by an outside source who doesn't base their success or failure on how the unattended dancer plays, but only how it creates a zone of control and predictability over one sphere of the game.Understandable? I understand the reasons all too well. Shrewd? Certainly. If mechanics are all we are needed for, then unattended alts can do it just as well as us. But it really doesn't give us much of a game, nor much of an incentive to play these professions.I would be fine with this profession as merely a sheer roleplay profession, with no mechanics benefit. That would eliminate a lot of the unattendees pretty quickly. I would be fine with complete passivity over our mechanical functions. While that wouldn't eliminate the unattendees, it would at least not make it seem that they were doing something special by letting the system give out "/" commands 24/7. I would be fine if the things this profession did wasn't "needed" the way you make it sound, Ihareo. But the problem with that is things soon start to become needs if one side has access to it, and the other side does not.But whatever the solution may be, it has to facilitate the live game at the expense of unattendence. Because unattendence doesn't need any facilitation for it to go on. Players will find ways to do it. However, the live game needs protection from unattendence, because the live game is dead, and more reasons to justify unattendence won't make it come back to life.
I have been following the Unattended macroing issue with intrest. And I often see you and Ihareo posting on the subject.
I have this to say.
PoetDancer, you do not think before you speak, nor do you think of others. You are the type of person that believes that if they shout loudly, forigners will understand them. You do not read the entire post that you reply to, nor do you acknowlage other's ideas an anything worth while unless they serve to satifly your immediate gratifications. You repetedly state why so and so is wrong, but your reasons are without weight or meaning and are filled with cynicism and anger, both emotions that cloud judgement. I post this here because Ihareo has clearly asked that this subject be tables till she can do more research.
Ihareo. You are not as smart as you believe you are. You have stated many times that you have experience at running 'games' yet you do not say what games those are leading me to believe that they are tabletop games or board games. You have solid ideas, but you do not take critisism well enough to turn your ideas into truely formal proposals. You are hot headed and over confidant. Both of which are poor examples to follow. Think before you react to a 'troll' who is trying to make you say somthing stupid. You have brought much of the anger you face onto yourself with your sarcasm.
That is my take on the continued argument between Ihareo and PoetDancer.
As for the AFK issue. I do not know that this idea is the best possible solution, but Ihareo asked that it be tables untill she can do some research. I feel that we owe her that as she is attempting to do what others will not by taking time out of her day to test and think of solutions to common problems, even if he needs refinement and a cooler head.
I do not agree with all of her solutions, but one thing I do agree with is that an ad hoc removal of macros and other related abilities are not the solution. History shoes again and again that totalitarian all emcompasing decisions hurt far more than they heal. A middleground aproach is almost alwase better than an absolute.
Ihareo
Fri Dec 31, 2004 9:43 am
#42
Firecat5150 wrote:
I have been following the Unattended macroing issue with intrest. And I often see you and Ihareo posting on the subject.
I have this to say.
PoetDancer, you do not think before you speak, nor do you think of others. You are the type of person that believes that if they shout loudly, forigners will understand them. You do not read the entire post that you reply to, nor do you acknowlage other's ideas an anything worth while unless they serve to satifly your immediate gratifications. You repetedly state why so and so is wrong, but your reasons are without weight or meaning and are filled with cynicism and anger, both emotions that cloud judgement. I post this here because Ihareo has clearly asked that this subject be tables till she can do more research.
Ihareo. You are not as smart as you believe you are. You have stated many times that you have experience at running 'games' yet you do not say what games those are leading me to believe that they are tabletop games or board games. You have solid ideas, but you do not take critisism well enough to turn your ideas into truely formal proposals. You are hot headed and over confidant. Both of which are poor examples to follow. Think before you react to a 'troll' who is trying to make you say somthing stupid. You have brought much of the anger you face onto yourself with your sarcasm.
That is my take on the continued argument between Ihareo and PoetDancer.
As for the AFK issue. I do not know that this idea is the best possible solution, but Ihareo asked that it be tables untill she can do some research. I feel that we owe her that as she is attempting to do what others will not by taking time out of her day to test and think of solutions to common problems, even if he needs refinement and a cooler head.
I do not agree with all of her solutions, but one thing I do agree with is that an ad hoc removal of macros and other related abilities are not the solution. History shoes again and again that totalitarian all emcompasing decisions hurt far more than they heal. A middleground aproach is almost alwase better than an absolute.
Jeeze... I asked people to let ot go for a while till I can figure out what the combat automation is all about!
And if you have a better idea, I say AGAIN! POST IT!
And I don't think that poetdancer deserved that.
And even if I do have experience at running tabletop games, that doesn'tmean I haven't dealt with the issues that a mltiplayer game deals with.
I have run multi player games at convensions, and I have done so privately. Also for game corporations. But the point is I get PAID to do it, so I think maybe that makes me a ROFESIONAL GAMEMASTER. Maybe not on a MMORPG, but you know what? NONE of the DEVS for MMORPGs started as MMORPG started their career that way. MMORPGS are still very new compared to TableTop RPGs, and maybe a little knowlage should be taken from tabletops, I mean they have 35 years of history, successes and failures under their belt and MMORPGs have what, 7 tops?
There is knowlage that can be gleaned there, and the DEVs know it.
Anoewyn
Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:34 am
#44
Hmmm, lottsa feelings floating around here, but some important questions have been raised 
My view of the AFK debate is simple: If you are away from your keyboard for a certain amount of time to warrant your AFK tag being automatically triggered, then you should be dropped from the game. You should not be allowed to participate in the game world. This notion shouldn't be viewed as a punishment, its just common sense - if you are not actively participating in the world then you shouldn't really bethere.You should neither be able to benefit from that worldorprovide services to it - why? Because you are not actually there participating in it.
An AFK tag shoud render all your abilities to a standstill - you cannot engage in comabt (which has only recently been implemented),you shouldn't be able to skill animate, you should not be able to gain xp, you should not be able to interact with npcs or players on any level outside a simple /tell function sopeople can leave you a message. All benefits/service should cease temporarily until an ATK keystroke can reactivate your participation.
The main problem here is not so much going AFK for necessary reasons, such as bio breaks etc, the problem is the long term AFK. The problem is the buffbots who stand in a house or cantina 24/7, not someone who dashes off to answer the doorbell/phone or grab some munchies from the cupboard. Although, when it comes to whether or not there is a differentiation between different types of AFK and which ones are acceptable.... Well,the bottom line for me is they need to be treated as one and the same, both long term and short term - neither types of AFK should be rewarded with any type of gain, or be accessible for services by others in the gameworld.
However, I think the devs do need to treat the AFK situation with a very strong policy that long term AFK play is not acceptable, and implement changes that reflect those sentiments. I personally think they should remove the option to toggle your "auto AFK" in the options section, it should just be straight out no keystrokes registered in a certain time period = retrieval of the character login screen. I personally think they need to make not only a statement to the masses that AFK play is nota legitimate means of participating in the gameworld, but they need toback that up with making a clear stand in the EULA.
I find this thread interesting, as some of the ideas posted - especially in light of the CU. We entertainers are very concerned and angered at the removal of a large part of our functionality, and whether we actually see a decrease in buffbots or the mere change from buff-to-BF bots remained to be seen (I have a feeling it will be the later, and nothing about bots will really change - only the removal of AFK play can change that). I do feel there will be a larger demand on entertainers to fill the void when AFK goes, and I have a feeling we are likely to receive a backlash from the combat community because they may feel they are being "forced" to interact with us. However, I don't feel that allowing certain types of AFK to help remedy the problem - anything that can be automated cannot be valued for the time given or the individuals who supplythose functions. In fact, it won't really solve much - it will just give buffbot-owners another avenue they must program into their character to keep it logged in.
In short, if they are going to end AFK "playstyles"- (Aye, it does choke me to say that **coughs**), they need to remove the player ability to determine what the playerdefines as AFK (ie. the AFK toggle just allows buffbots to skirt around the AFK timer). If the game does not register your keystrokes and deems you AFK, then you shouldn't be in the gameworld simply because you are not really participating in it anyway.
Joker9125
Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:50 pm
#45
Im not an eintertainer but Ive good sense enough to know that the removal of recursive macros and AFK playwould seriously and I mean SERIOUSLYmess up my and many other peoplesplay expirence. I dont know how populated your server is but valcyns population is pretty light. Ever try finding an ATK eintertainer on valcyn at 2 am? I have and belive me its not the easiest thing in the world. Ok gonna check Cnet.........hmmm nope all but two are AFK and they are neither a master dancer nor master musican, Now onto bestine..........3 AFK bots and the 2 ATK ones are in a rebel guild that refuses service to imps, and finally lets try theed SUCCESS!!!!! Finally an ATK master musican!
Me: "Hey can I please have a buff?"
Musican: "Sure hun are you listening to me?"
Me: "Yes"
2 minutes later after I have the musican buff
Musican: "you want a dancer buff to?"
Me: "Sure!"
2 minutes later I find that my mind has been enhanced by only 10% with no way to get a better buff for 2 hours without losing my current buffs. So what do I do? I /thank and/tip 5000 the nice ATK musican and get my guild doc who usuially plays the same time I do to kill/rez me and then head to a buffbot that I know can/will provide the services I need to support my style of play. Do you think the removal of AFK buffers will magically make ATK people appear? Remove the AFK players from my usuial expirence of trying to find an ATK bufferand the only thing changes is that in the end I am the one out of a buff.
Joker9125
Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:59 pm
#46
Removing recursive macros would also seriouslyscrew me over. I am a master creature handler and recursive macros are pretty much a requirement for playing as one. You ever tried to have 3 petsmaking for a total of 6 special attack commands each having a different commandtank 3 different targets without recursive macroswhile trying to keep all 3 pets alive and fight at the same time? Yes its possible but it is truely a pain in the rear. Currently I just target something and press 1 button and my pet/s not only keeps its attention it also keeps states applied to it! Currently since the ferocity tweaking pets will randomly run off and agro random mobs and the ONLY way around this without continually tapping you follow me hotkey like an autistic kid on crack is through a recursive macro. Removing recursive macros will not solve your AFK problem it will only hurt those like me.
PoetDancer
Wed Mar 30, 2005 11:41 pm
#47
Joker9125 wrote:
Removing recursive macros will not solve your AFK problem it will only hurt those like me.
The removal of recursive macros may not solve it, but then again, what will solve it?
If you are saying it cannot be solved completely, I agree with you.
There will always be some autoclicker or reprobate running an unattended character in some house somewhere. Unattendance needs no protection to facilitate it. The sheer ability to manipulate an environment beyond the constraints of playability in order to achieve some end is all the reason players need to automate a second instance. Its a powerful manipulation, and one that requires no special dispensation from SOE to facilitate it.
But if you are saying it should not be solved, that is where we have a problem.
Because I have logged on at 2AM as well as an entertainer. And just like you, I am wondering where players are at 2AM. And I am on Bria, Velitham. A much larger server than Valcyn. You see, the problem right now for me at least is that there are plenty of entertainer characters running between 12AM and 12PM, but so very few players who need entertainer services at these hours that frankly entertainers aren't needed.
Why should anyone who logs on at non-traditional hours even be an entertainer, considering the fact that there are more entertainers logged into the game world between 12AM and 12PM than all other classes? In some major cities, there is almost aone toone or larger ratio of entertainers to patrons. I've done searches in Theed at non-traditional hours and find that sometimes the entertainers outnumber the patrons as much as ten to one. Why don't I dance in the cantina at 2AM when I am logged on? Frankly, I am not needed.
But even still, I do not think unattendance is a problem when seen in terms of having an available healer and buffer when no entertainer players are available. The thing about unattended entertainers is that they still heal and buff even if there are entertainer players available. Because there is no way for aunattended entertainer owner to tell, or even care, if there are any other entertainer players around. And even if it is 6PM on the server,unattended entertainersare still there even when live entertainers are all around it.
So not only am I not needed at 2AM. I am not needed even at 6PM.
In fact, the problem with unattended entertainers is that they keep on skill animating no matter if they are /watched by 10,000 players, or no players. They keep on skill animating whether they are tipped 3 million credits, or no credits. They skill animate for motives wholly detached from any notions of play, rightly understood. And they skill animate so that players like you and many others will not need to learn entertaining skills, or will not need to go through a search to find an entertainer.
You say we as a class have to put up with unattendance inthose places reserved for live playsimply so you can have a game at 2AM. But what about my game at 2AM? How does unattendence give players like me an incentive to dance at 2AM, when nobody really cares whether I am even there or not?
Moreover, what about my game at 6PM? How does unattendence give players like me an incentive to dance at 6PM, when nobody really cares whether I am even there or not?
This classcannot keep "taking one for the good of the servers" in the way you want us to. Because frankly, we have yet to see the playerbase as a whole do anything to make it worth our while to tolerate the automation of this class.It is far, far too late for aplayer generated solution or compromise for unattendence on servers like Valcyn. The time for that was in 2003. Players who run unattended entertainers have shown that they cannot use the ability in a manner that respects playing and subscription paying entertainer players. This is a problem now that can only be solved by developer intervention, CSR intervention, suspended and banned accounts,and nerfs. But we will try and solve it. We have a right to a game at 2AM, 12AM, or 6PM just as you do.
Because whatever meansthe developersuse to solvethe problem, itwill not stop the systematic unattendance. It is far too useful and powerful to do it. These criteria alone will promote unattendance far in excess of any license or positive rule protecting the ability to set up characters to skill animate in an unattended state for hours, days, and months on end.
But what an enforcement of the EULA and other measures designed to mitigate unattendance will do is give players like me more of an incentive to do the things we do for you all. And it will also send a very stong message to systematic unattendees that their conduct is at best tolerated as a necessary evil, and at worst, cheating.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 03-31-2005 10:30 AM
spriggs
Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:41 am
#49
There's no AFK problem. Frankly, most people automatically assume that ents are AFK with or without having AFK above your name. If you don't want them thinking that you are AFK, then personally talk to them... that's what I do. I use my macro even when I'm REALLY at my keyboard, but I still make conversation to people that come to get mind buffs, my friends, my guild, etc. Now, when I am not at the computer, I do have the auto-AFK off because I hated being logged out after a certain period of time.
Ents should consider themselves lucky because dancer and musician are the only professions that can be done when you're not at your computer. You'll get tipped just the same whether you're AFK or really there. Most people just want the conversation from an entertainer buffing them, and if you do talk to them, they'll usually tip more just because you're not just another AFK ent.
And in my opinion, I don't care if I get my buff from someone who's AFK or really there... as long as I'm getting a buff what else should matter? It's not who or where you get it from but just that you get it. My favorite buffers have been AFK or "buffbots". 
erin
(eclipse)
Master TK, dancer, and occasionally musician
LyteFoot
Thu Mar 31, 2005 7:42 am
#50
LOL unbelievable. Do you feel the same about the loot spawn zombies? After all I don't care where I get the loot from as long as I can get the loot, so what if I've paided some guy millions of credits because I can't get at the loot spots directly.
georgi
Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:07 am
#51
I for one look for ATK players for mind healing and buffs. If I can't find any ONLY then will I start watching/listening to a buffbot. You have a choice here. If you don't like AFK players, you don't have to listen/watch them. That means they get no tips or xp from you. If we could get a majority of players to do this, we might be able to cut down on theAFK macroing in cantinas. What we could also do is prevent AFK players from continually spamming by adding a time delay to AFK typing. If the system detects they areAFK, their abilityto spam would be diminished, meaning they would only be able to spam once every few minutes.This wouldreduce the amount of spam in cities like Coronet and in the cantinas. Another idea would be only limiting AFK dance or musician macros to protect the doctors and combat people.
Message Edited by georgi on 03-31-2005 07:19 AM
Joker9125
Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:20 am
#52
PoetDancer wrote:
Joker9125 wrote:
Removing recursive macros will not solve your AFK problem it will only hurt those like me.
The removal of recursive macros may not solve it, but then again, what will solve it?
If you are saying it cannot be solved completely, I agree with you.
Thats exactly what im saying
There will always be some autoclicker or reprobate running an unattended character in some house somewhere. Unattendance needs no protection to facilitate it. The sheer ability to manipulate an environment beyond the constraints of playability in order to achieve some end is all the reason players need to automate a second instance. Its a powerful manipulation, and one that requires no special dispensation from SOE to facilitate it.
But if you are saying it should not be solved, that is where we have a problem.
Not saying that at all but how do you purpose fixing your problem without creating 10 more for me? I hate the AFK bots spamming NPC cantinas just as much as you do so ya know what i do to cut back on the spam? /addignore spammer
You say we as a class have to put up with unattendance inthose places reserved for live playsimply so you can have a game at 2AM. But what about my game at 2AM? How does unattendence give players like me an incentive to dance at 2AM, when nobody really cares whether I am even there or not?
Moreover, what about my game at 6PM? How does unattendence give players like me an incentive to dance at 6PM, when nobody really cares whether I am even there or not?
You want live people to care about you being there? Ok goto the Mining Outpost on dantooine and run a solo group for people who need XP. Give them mind/secondary buffs and an interesting convorsation and I guarntee people WILL appreciate it. Theres incentive to be ATK at 6PM.