Dancer Archive
Thread: Our own discussions about Dancer revamp
Page 3 of 3
Maisland
Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:28 pm
#27
Aynianu wrote:
RE: Gera
Keep Speech on macro's, if they remove the looping function weshould be fine
(i have my songs all on macro's they'd be hard to do without macro's really)
I too, have all my songs on macros. It would be a nightmare to do them if I did not.
Regarding falling: our Cor suggested in one thread that this should be made so that dancers could fall on purpose through the use of a seperate command (such as /flourish fall or some such). I thought that this would be a good idea. I wouldn't mind falling if it only happened when *I* wanted it to happen.
Panthu
Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm
#28
Xyrdre wrote:
- The first is in doing revamps that are intended to provide satisfying gameplay for the players attracted to those professions in a way not yet seen integrated into a 'full-service' game before - meaning, having a fully-functioning social type of game existing hand in hand with traditional shoot-em-up and crafting roles to be played out. In offering this new type of gameplay, players not usually interested in the same old, same old (or tired of doing that) can find a great home here in SWG, and SOE is seen as genius for providing such a scope of gameplay opportunities all within one game environment.
I vote for this one! 
I don't have a ton of discussion to add, but here are a few things that would make the Dancer experience full for me:
- Cantinas the money making party centers they should be! (For Ents and non-Ents, Cantinas should be fun and profitableall the time)
- Skill/group based Dancer Quests and Missions that are fully completed with safe paths (no death risk) 100% in Cities (City to City is fine, as long as they match faction... no clue how that will work with the new stuff)
- Spy/Informant role for Dancers in the GCW
- Dodge type bonuses, bonuses to green stats or a green stat "Dancer Meditate", or anything else that will make Dancer more friendly in a "stacked" combat template (self buffing doesn't count, that should just be done period)
- Special Clothes, Costumes, Handheld and Dropable Props that are Dancer only
- ... and most of all, to become a true crafter of Dance animations. Able to add in short kicks, turns, and tons of other short moves to make a completely original Dance routine of my very own. I then want to be able to save that routine and trade/teach it to other Dancers so it can be performed as a synchronized dance performance.
Message Edited by Panthu on 02-09-2005 11:40 PM
Hobbytla
Thu Feb 10, 2005 7:15 am
#29
I completely understand why some would have doubts about the devs intentions with the entertainers, and their ability to make things better. However, I can also easily see the other side of things. As I understand it, the entertainer in SWG is a new type of class, a new profession, and in some ways an experiment. This also means that I think in some ways the devs are not sure what to make of it when things go all pearshaped and they are faced with fixing something which isn't even a malfunction of the mechanics or design of the profession, but a more intangible problem of what players will do to the function/profession/class.
The potential of further development of the entertainer class as a new phenomena has been drowned out in an all-out war where the very function of the profession must be potentially butchered instead of added to.
Yes, yes, at this point the AFK just has to go and it has gone on too long etc etc. But it will not really make the profession MORE. More fun, draw more people to it, and encourage the people who do play it to spend more time playing it. The entertainer class has become a problem to solve, not a fun thing to further develop.
In my opinion there are different levels to this: To give more content to the profession as it is, for the players. Quests, new dances and songs, etc, all of this is a good thing, but it is something which is still working inside the frame for entertainer roles as it already is. Missions and ways of making money in a better way is another level in how to expand the experience of playing an entertainer. But there is a third level as well - what competely new roles and functions could be added to entertainers to make them not just better, but actually start growing into their own as a class?
So here are my suggestions, and they are just a few things I toss out. Maybe they are crazy, the point isn't really to get any specific ideas implemented, but to help the devs see what the class could be - while in the process making it into a successful experiment instead of a failed one.
First - free up a tree in the entertainer skills by removing the healing tree. I would say scrap it all together until novice dancer/musician - there is enough requirement in the elite boxes, and frankly, at this point, anything that hinders access to the content for the player who enjoys entertainment should go. But, there are several options to move the healing XP requirements around. An easy way would be to require healing XP to become novice elite, and Master entertainer box (since a master entertainer with no healing requirement seems a bit strange).
So, now the fun bit. What do we do with the tree now?
And I'm more than happy if you don't like my suggestions but come up with your own! Because my main point really is only: If you had to come up with A NEW SKILL TREE in the entertainer profession, what would you use it for?
And I'm more than happy if you don't like my suggestions but come up with your own! Because my main point really is only: If you had to come up with A NEW SKILL TREE in the entertainer profession, what would you use it for?
How about eventplanner?
An eventplanner would be able to book a venue and advertize it, book entertainers for the event, and accept guests at the event. The venue booking could make use of those theaters and hotels, not sure about NPC cantinas, and private cantinas. Advertizing would be made with posters or some preferly non-spammy alternative. Recieving guests for two reason, reason one I will mention in a moment, and reason two, as a bouncer-feature.
The market for these events would be for three purposes - a civilian feature - for fun - , a general combat preparation PvE and for GCW and PvP tournaments.
First, the combat bit. To further the bond with the entertainers and the combats (because for some reason no matter how much I survey or craft, my artisan never gets mindwounds or BF....) there could be bonuses to be had for attending such an event.
An eventplanner would be able to book a venue and advertize it, book entertainers for the event, and accept guests at the event. The venue booking could make use of those theaters and hotels, not sure about NPC cantinas, and private cantinas. Advertizing would be made with posters or some preferly non-spammy alternative. Recieving guests for two reason, reason one I will mention in a moment, and reason two, as a bouncer-feature.
The market for these events would be for three purposes - a civilian feature - for fun - , a general combat preparation PvE and for GCW and PvP tournaments.
First, the combat bit. To further the bond with the entertainers and the combats (because for some reason no matter how much I survey or craft, my artisan never gets mindwounds or BF....) there could be bonuses to be had for attending such an event.
The way I see it, there are two big "markets" for this: Preparations for battle/raids in the GCW, and general PvE. For this end, you could have a music and dance (a war dance if you will) which gives certain bonuses, mind or otherwise - perhaps resist to certain attacks for instance. I've also understood that the master entertainer doesn't really have anything specific from the ID tree. How about some holo-emotes? The obvious ones, the imp and reb ones, but also a few unique ones. This could be used as intimidation to your opponent in PvP (purely psychological, I don't mean as a bonus - in a battle I try to stay away from the CM, I don't stand around waiting to check if he really does carry poison or not, and this could be a similar effect - do they have combat bonuses or not?) or purely for fun to show off the fact that you have just come from a party.
Also from the ID side of the master entertainer could come a unique feature - warpaint. It can last for a certain time, and give bonuses to something like warcry and threaten shot (or whatever from the ranged support tree).
Perhaps there could be a bonus to buffs from an organized event too, unless this is too a touchy subject.
OK - so we have bonuses for the combats who attend an event, who watch the "wardance/warsong", and have their warpaint applied.
For more civilian use - ability to teach guests at an event a specific dance (with no other features than skill animating), party hats which make them able to whistle along with the music, and all sorts of fun things that would make a party fun.
Regardless, the host(s) should be active!
Perhaps there could be a bonus to buffs from an organized event too, unless this is too a touchy subject.
OK - so we have bonuses for the combats who attend an event, who watch the "wardance/warsong", and have their warpaint applied.
For more civilian use - ability to teach guests at an event a specific dance (with no other features than skill animating), party hats which make them able to whistle along with the music, and all sorts of fun things that would make a party fun.
Regardless, the host(s) should be active!
What's in it for the entertainer?
First of all - fun. This already happens, and it would just make it an ingame feature to be able to reach people easier who might be interested in checking out a party.
But - something which isn't really my playstyle or interest, but which I have seen mentioned many times, and which I would very much enjoy as a spectator is a fame system.
First of all - fun. This already happens, and it would just make it an ingame feature to be able to reach people easier who might be interested in checking out a party.
But - something which isn't really my playstyle or interest, but which I have seen mentioned many times, and which I would very much enjoy as a spectator is a fame system.
We have jedi-visibility, why not entertainer-visibility?
There could be two "lists" - the all out list, the top 5 or 10 entertainers of each planet, and a galaxy wide fame, and - also an "up-and-coming" list.
The problem is to design a trade off between the establish entertainer who really is popular already and of course deserves to be, and the newcomer who might not get invited to the right events.
You would therefor get points for two different things:
Visibility in events organized by an eventplanner, where if you are booked, you get points for each guest that the eventplanner have accepted at the time and place of the event. This would give quite high scores, to reward the hardworking entertainer who has already established good relations with other players.
But - you should also be able to get rated for hard work as a newcomer. This would be achieved by touring. Taking missions (as a way of keeping track of the individual) to different cantinas on your planet, the more the better, and the more missions the better. For instance, taking 3 or 4 sets of missions in the same venue would give extra points (since you in reality are also more likely to provide the entertainer healing service to the public by staying put in one place for at least a while, and not bolting after 10 minutes), but to also visit as many as possible of the different cantinas, theatres and hotels.
I would go as far as to say that even if you are a very successful events entertainer, you should be required to tour at least to a limited amount - being the star of your home cantina doesn't make you famous across the planet, let alone the galaxy. This might be seen as an inconvinience, but it also rewards the dedicated entertainer, who actually.... plays their character, and it would exclude... people not best mentioned. Those people really could not be bothered to do something like that on a regular basis is what I think.
Just as with jedis, this would not be a one time thing, but something you would have to sustain - your visibility would wear out, to stay at the top is work!
(for the established entertainer who have gone on a RL brake, it still shouldn't be too difficult to get back and again be invited to events)
There could be two "lists" - the all out list, the top 5 or 10 entertainers of each planet, and a galaxy wide fame, and - also an "up-and-coming" list.
The problem is to design a trade off between the establish entertainer who really is popular already and of course deserves to be, and the newcomer who might not get invited to the right events.
You would therefor get points for two different things:
Visibility in events organized by an eventplanner, where if you are booked, you get points for each guest that the eventplanner have accepted at the time and place of the event. This would give quite high scores, to reward the hardworking entertainer who has already established good relations with other players.
But - you should also be able to get rated for hard work as a newcomer. This would be achieved by touring. Taking missions (as a way of keeping track of the individual) to different cantinas on your planet, the more the better, and the more missions the better. For instance, taking 3 or 4 sets of missions in the same venue would give extra points (since you in reality are also more likely to provide the entertainer healing service to the public by staying put in one place for at least a while, and not bolting after 10 minutes), but to also visit as many as possible of the different cantinas, theatres and hotels.
I would go as far as to say that even if you are a very successful events entertainer, you should be required to tour at least to a limited amount - being the star of your home cantina doesn't make you famous across the planet, let alone the galaxy. This might be seen as an inconvinience, but it also rewards the dedicated entertainer, who actually.... plays their character, and it would exclude... people not best mentioned. Those people really could not be bothered to do something like that on a regular basis is what I think.
Just as with jedis, this would not be a one time thing, but something you would have to sustain - your visibility would wear out, to stay at the top is work!
(for the established entertainer who have gone on a RL brake, it still shouldn't be too difficult to get back and again be invited to events)
So - how to encourage the event planner to book a variaty of entertainers?
Any bonuses to the guests could be dependent on different factors - maximum bonus for having someone ranking in the let's say top ten, AND booking from the Up-and-coming list. It's really hard to allow people freedom to create their own parties while at the same time trying as best as possible to stop new contenders from being excluded - this is just a suggestion.
Also, the more individual entertainers at the event, the better. This would encourage planners to hire or book entertainers for GCW and PvP events who would normally not get invited. As someone who enjoys the occasional battle, it would just make the trek from the cloner to the cantina to be patched back together by docs and entertainers much more fun.
To participate in the fame system I think you should need to be a Master Elite, but to participate in the event as a "moral boost" any level entertainer would suffice. More fun!
Any bonuses to the guests could be dependent on different factors - maximum bonus for having someone ranking in the let's say top ten, AND booking from the Up-and-coming list. It's really hard to allow people freedom to create their own parties while at the same time trying as best as possible to stop new contenders from being excluded - this is just a suggestion.
Also, the more individual entertainers at the event, the better. This would encourage planners to hire or book entertainers for GCW and PvP events who would normally not get invited. As someone who enjoys the occasional battle, it would just make the trek from the cloner to the cantina to be patched back together by docs and entertainers much more fun.
To participate in the fame system I think you should need to be a Master Elite, but to participate in the event as a "moral boost" any level entertainer would suffice. More fun!
As for the fame system - I think it would be wonderful if there could be different levels.
An individual rating or list, separate for musician and dancer, and a band/troup list - (this could be a little tricky to devise, because what exactly is a group, does it have to include the exact same members, or could the bandleader and name just be the same?).
For more GCW feeling, it would be fun to also have a Imperial and Rebel fame rating - for instance in Germany during the nazi era, American music was banned but represented freedom to a lot of people, while the German performers represented the superiority of the Third Reich for its supporters.
I also think it would be logical that you start out with being famous on one planet - if you are a resident there you could even get extra points for that. You tour the planet, participate in the events, and rise. At some point, you can branch out to other planets - tour other planets, get booked on different events.
In my opinion, fame should be hard work, but not so hard work that it discourages people because it makes them feel as if they are not enjoying just being an entertainer. I don't really have any dilusions about my suggestion being picked up, so exactly how to balance this is not going to stop me from suggesting it....
An individual rating or list, separate for musician and dancer, and a band/troup list - (this could be a little tricky to devise, because what exactly is a group, does it have to include the exact same members, or could the bandleader and name just be the same?).
For more GCW feeling, it would be fun to also have a Imperial and Rebel fame rating - for instance in Germany during the nazi era, American music was banned but represented freedom to a lot of people, while the German performers represented the superiority of the Third Reich for its supporters.
I also think it would be logical that you start out with being famous on one planet - if you are a resident there you could even get extra points for that. You tour the planet, participate in the events, and rise. At some point, you can branch out to other planets - tour other planets, get booked on different events.
In my opinion, fame should be hard work, but not so hard work that it discourages people because it makes them feel as if they are not enjoying just being an entertainer. I don't really have any dilusions about my suggestion being picked up, so exactly how to balance this is not going to stop me from suggesting it....
Then again, perhaps some other kind of entertainer would be fun too? Acrobats? Animal trainers as in a circus? (cooperation with creature handler in that case of course) Maybe if you had some sort of event planner, they should also be able to plan other events, as PvP tournaments and speeder races etc - things that people already enjoy doing but which often are frustrating events because the people organizing it aren't really INTO organizing those sorts of things? Perhaps a specific public arena for PvP and pet tournaments? Maybe something like different cantinas? The current cantinas are very Tatooine... in episode I for instance, an assasain disappears into a big city club (Courasant, I think) which looks very different from the cantinas we have, and would be appropiate for Corellia. And Naboo, my favorite planet which is beatifully designed in all other aspects - wouldn't they have more "old fashioned classy" night clubs?
I love the world of SWG, but the best content will always be created by interaction between players. Is it completely impossible to think of ways to give entertainers more abilities in this field? And preferly by introducing more active functions to the professions.
I love the world of SWG, but the best content will always be created by interaction between players. Is it completely impossible to think of ways to give entertainers more abilities in this field? And preferly by introducing more active functions to the professions.
Ka_ren
Thu Feb 10, 2005 8:19 am
#30
gera wrote:
I agree except to add that these should be for all entertainers.....black sunglasses is one prop I'd like tosee as well as some new instruments.
Aynianu wrote:
RE: Gera
Keep Speech on macro's, if they remove the looping function weshould be fine
(i have my songs all on macro's they'd be hard to do without macro's really)
Message Edited by Aynianu on 02-09-2005 12:06 AM
Yeah, I too have those lyrics etc., but I would give my left arm to stop spam for this ;(
At least it would be temporary solution till recursive macros are removed or found a way to do this..
BeesKnees
Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:27 pm
#31
QFE
Kyorlana wrote:
Dance mechanic changes
- Remove the 15 second re-start entertaining limit. If you have been entertaining for more than 15 seconds, you should be able to stop/start immediately.
- Fix our broken dances
- Introduce of Dance Troupe Choreographer commands
- Start, stop, change dance troupe in perfect sync.
- Change dance formation
- Partner dancing
- More dance styles, including species specific
- More flo sets for each style
- Different lengths of flo to facilitate more creativity (e.g. for each dance style there are different flo sets, one of 4-8 sec flos, another of 9-15 sec flos, another of 16-30 etc)
Great points K'vera!
You expressed my sentiments exactly. I would also like to add that the falling issue is a total embarrassment and as a Master Dancer should be very rare.
Another point. I was dissappointed that the flourishes for the quest reward dance seemed like they were not part of the same dance (not to mention the broken base dance). Also, many watching have made the comment "Well, maybe the dance would look better if done by a group." I did the dance solo. I would have liked to had a quest dance that could be done solo and matched the musician quest music seamlessly.
My first char was combat but I becamea dancer because I wanted social interaction and I wanted fun. Fortunately, I was grouped with those who felt the same way. We made the Coronet cantina come alive. I enjoyed buffing the combatants and talking to them about where they were headed. Then I would heal them when they got back and they would share their adventures. It was great fun. Why did I leave? AFK'rs, spam, buff bots, and not being able to survive financially.
Etema ~ Master Dancer/Master Image Designer
Myleah ~ Master Tailor/Master Artisan/Master Merchant ~MindHarp Couture ~ STC, Naboo
Maylee ~ Master Fencer/Master Scout/Ranger 4/0/4/0 (Tracker)
~All Scylla
NeillM
Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:34 pm
#32
Esharra wrote:
Oh..something I'd like to add to mine..
If the intention of the falling is to somehow challenge us, is there any way we can convince them that falling does not present us with challenging game play and replacing it with something that does would be a good thing?
Maybe falling could be made into a command such as /fall so that you could use it to Roleplay a drunk or clumsy dancer
Kyorlana
Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:50 am
#33
In terms of which option I think is viable, it has to be the first. Being a part of the entertainer profession HAS to be satisfying within itself without being so dependent on our individual creativity to make the profession fun. Although I am sure there are more people capable of generating their own content than actually do, fact is it takes time and effort that many just do not have. We need to be able to log on, and have fun for the short time we have available.
Please note that some of what I say here is equally applicable to musicians and entertainers rather than being dancer-specific.
What do I like about being an entertainer?
I started out in beta wanting to be some kind of spy, that was until I saw we could physically dance. I changed to entertainer in beta because I loved the ability to actually dance/play, and be creative in game – not looked back since.
The healing aspect of entertaining holds no interest for me; I view it as an artificial means to making the professions viable and interdependent.
The social interaction is fun and should be encouraged rather than removing every time sink that actually contributed to this, e.g. shuttle port waits – met some cool people there!
Entertaining to me is about performing (I freely admit this is my bias based on rl experience) and finding ways to be creative, have fun, and put on a good show (be this gigs or regular shift work.
Yes, I am one of those performer style entertainers, but that doesn't mean I think it is right to limit options to ONLY this style of entertainer play. Give people options!
What I think we need
We need content and more variety. Since the beginning I have seen many ideas come and go so I’ll try and consolidate those I like here.
Miscellaneous Ideas
Venues
Quests and Missions
Other Income
We already get some from improved mission payouts, tips, and gig payments. We should not have to take up a side profession to survive so add the following:
Dance mechanic changes
Others have already stated pretty clearly everything I would want from a revamped entertainment profession. The post by Shi'ann Dinova most accurately reflects my views and I also think that now they are introducing player event tools, it is an ideal opportunity to look at improving the Master Entertainer tree with event planning abilities.
I know this is the dancer forum but refer back to Bluesbacca’s dream idea for musicians. Perhaps something similar could be developed for both trees?
Normally I wouldn't take the time to write so much, but with recent changes to the game I finally believe we CAN make a difference!
Please note that some of what I say here is equally applicable to musicians and entertainers rather than being dancer-specific.
What do I like about being an entertainer?
I started out in beta wanting to be some kind of spy, that was until I saw we could physically dance. I changed to entertainer in beta because I loved the ability to actually dance/play, and be creative in game – not looked back since.
The healing aspect of entertaining holds no interest for me; I view it as an artificial means to making the professions viable and interdependent.
The social interaction is fun and should be encouraged rather than removing every time sink that actually contributed to this, e.g. shuttle port waits – met some cool people there!
Entertaining to me is about performing (I freely admit this is my bias based on rl experience) and finding ways to be creative, have fun, and put on a good show (be this gigs or regular shift work.
Yes, I am one of those performer style entertainers, but that doesn't mean I think it is right to limit options to ONLY this style of entertainer play. Give people options!
What I think we need
We need content and more variety. Since the beginning I have seen many ideas come and go so I’ll try and consolidate those I like here.
Miscellaneous Ideas
- Ability to join a band (rather than a PA) and have this as an additional title or badge.
- Advertising boards, posters at the cantina, etc.
- Searchable Entertainment Network (built up through those who do the player created missions, registration, and the fame system)
- Fame system
- Move the base flo of basic 1 to /dance and move the animation of /dance to lyrical
- Props – see Panthu’s thread of Nov 2004
- Improved logging facility with option selection screen. E.g. output all tips to tipsreceived.txt whilst spatial text goes into spatial.txt. Yes I know we can do this manually, but it would be nice. Or even better, an in-game tips record!
Venues
- Theatres fixed! – I would go so far as to say completely rebuild them and use the existing building as a Drama Company Theatre.
- With the player event tools, why not create some new venues for us which can be used for events, e.g. grand ball room, disco stage, outdoor stage, etc.
Quests and Missions
- Non-combat Theme parks – others have already talked about this
- Improved missions – Again others have given lots of ideas. I would only add that we should have the ability to create our own as event planners, e.g. x dancers, x musicians required for show at . Pay of x per hour etc. This could then feed into the fame rating system and entertainment network.
Other Income
We already get some from improved mission payouts, tips, and gig payments. We should not have to take up a side profession to survive so add the following:
- Appropriate ways to generating income based upon our profession (e.g. holovids for dancers, sound recordings for musicians). See ‘Making Payment a System Thing’
- The new abilities to create and record performances would also tie in with the ability to trade choreography and music scores with fellow entertainers. Note that these should come in two forms.
- Straight playback – as with current macro/alias system
- Cue card – gives the player a visual cue to trigger a certain flo or command (a la theatre quest) then those that wish to can actually learn to perform a dance routine (at the moment we do this through alias file cues).
Back in October 2003, Slickriptide went on to suggest that if a dance troupe were perfoming a dance together, if an individual hit the timing correctly the group would receive a bonus in their dancer XP. If the individual’s timing was off, the XP for the group would drop.
- Straight playback – as with current macro/alias system
- NPC Cantina Managers - Pay you a rate depending upon your performance abilities. This could also be tied in with the fame rating and other systems. e.g.
- They would be the contact who could direct you to other gigs in other cantinas in their 'chain' and specify what is needed.
- If you need training you could register the request with them so it becomes a mission for someone else to complete,
- If you clock on you are registered in the cantina without having to type the command, likewise for clocking off unregistering. This could be combined with some form of advertising names of certain fame ratings outside the cantina perhaps?
- They would be the contact who could direct you to other gigs in other cantinas in their 'chain' and specify what is needed.
Dance mechanic changes
- Remove the 15 second re-start entertaining limit. If you have been entertaining for more than 15 seconds, you should be able to stop/start immediately.
- Fix our broken dances
- Introduce of Dance Troupe Choreographer commands
- Start, stop, change dance troupe in perfect sync.
- Change dance formation
- Start, stop, change dance troupe in perfect sync.
- Partner dancing
- More dance styles, including species specific
- More flo sets for each style
- Different lengths of flo to facilitate more creativity (e.g. for each dance style there are different flo sets, one of 4-8 sec flos, another of 9-15 sec flos, another of 16-30 etc)
Others have already stated pretty clearly everything I would want from a revamped entertainment profession. The post by Shi'ann Dinova most accurately reflects my views and I also think that now they are introducing player event tools, it is an ideal opportunity to look at improving the Master Entertainer tree with event planning abilities.
I know this is the dancer forum but refer back to Bluesbacca’s dream idea for musicians. Perhaps something similar could be developed for both trees?
Normally I wouldn't take the time to write so much, but with recent changes to the game I finally believe we CAN make a difference!
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