Dancer Archive
Thread: No forced interaction??
The OP had it just right... and you are not correct to state that it was never mentioned by the devs. It was stated by "the" dev (JF is the lead designer now, as I understand it) as the exact reason why they are removing BF from the game.
Now maybe we gave the devs the idea, but you're simply factually incorrect -- it WAS stated by the devs (in the person of JF) as THE reason for removing BF. To say that we said it but the devs never did is simply erroneous.
C
I have no problem with people being worried about this
You certainly act like you DO have a problem with people being worried. In fact, every time anyone dares to make an eloquent post saying just how worried she (or he) is about the changes on the TC and what impact those will have on the profession, you say, in effect, "Shh! If the devs hear you we might get all the changes shelved!"
That doesn't sound like someone who "has no problem" with people being "worried about this." If you really had no problem with it, you wouldn't try to shut them up.
C
I've gone through about 5 replies to what Pappi said, but in the end - I don't like the tone of this thread anymore.
It wasn't my intent to upset anyone over this.
All I have to say, in parting, is that the Devs are - potentially - setting us up to have nobody to entertain to, if their plans don't work out as expected. I only hope their past fickle behavior towards fixing professions doesn't leave us without an audience, and for an extended period of time. It will be disastrous.
Please think of it this way, and this will be it for me here (at least for now)
If you have an old building, and you plan on erecting a new one in its place, you first destroy the old building, then lay the foundation for the new one.
You do not just "drop" a new building over the old one...
ZinaTheMaker wrote:Please think of it this way, and this will be it for me here (at least for now)
If you have an old building, and you plan on erecting a new one in its place, you first destroy the old building, then lay the foundation for the new one.
You do not just "drop" a new building over the old one...
I agree, but if you don't build the new building fairly quickly, the homeless former residents are going to move out of the neighborhood.
NJ62 wrote:
ZinaTheMaker wrote:
Please think of it this way, and this will be it for me here (at least for now)
If you have an old building, and you plan on erecting a new one in its place, you first destroy the old building, then lay the foundation for the new one.
You do not just "drop" a new building over the old one...
I agree, but if you don't build the new building fairly quickly, the homeless former residents are going to move out of the neighborhood.
NJ62 wrote:
I agree, but if you don't build the new building fairly quickly, the homeless former residents are going to move out of the neighborhood.
This is why cool people live in tents.
Granted I wasn't here for Beta and didn't start until the beginning of August 2003 but the cantinas were the place to beand not just to get healed. People came in to take a break, to talk, to have bar fights, to meet up with IG friends. What changed? This can be laid at SOEs feet. The hologrind destroyed the game and turned combatants into AFK 'tainers so they could master yet another prof and hopefully unlock their slot. Entertainers did vehemently request help with the AFK and buff bot issue.
It's a moot point - right now if you equip the glowstick or ribbon on TC you become invisible and cannot be targeted.That's just as bad as the too far away(LOS) error but doing away with BF solves the LOS issue.If I was a betting person like Dej I'd bet this bug makes it's way to Live.
Cindal wrote:Granted I wasn't here for Beta and didn't start until the beginning of August 2003 but the cantinas were the place to be and not just to get healed. People came in to take a break, to talk, to have bar fights, to meet up with IG friends. What changed?
Two words: Mind buffs. Add to that the greatly increased desire by the community to do as many professions in the shortest amount of time possible, the mind pool being the most important HAM pool in PvP and highend PvE.
Why do you think those of us who started from beta and have watched the developement of the game the whole time are so incredibly upset by the change from the post combat healer role (Jun - Fall of 2003, the golden age of entertaining) to a precombat role (Winter 2003 until CU, the golden age of macrotainment)? We have evidence, a very clear picture of which version of entertainer is in our best interest yet the people this new batch of developers are choosing to listen to and interpret as the voice of our community (many of whom never even played an entertainer when we were in our prime) are ramming MORE of that role down our throats. Oh sure, you get pretty shiny things to hold and a new dance to throw into your buff macro, but the same basic elements that ruined entertainer in the first place have not been addressed and reworked.
Battle Fatigue was entertainer.
I don't think it's fair nor even remotely close to reality to attempt to "blame" any one person or group for the current state/uncertain future of entertainers. The fact of the matter is we were broken, in a variety of ways, and we cried out to be fixed. Maybe we don't like the fix. Maybe the fix will be even worse. Only time will tell. But to try to blame the devs, a current or former correspondent, secret meetings, power gamers, alien's from outer space or any one particular event is a sure sign that someone's tinfoil hat is too tight (sorry I just had to steal that reference).
Each of us has our own reasons for initially choosing to be an entertainer. Each of us has our own thoughts and desires on what we want entertaining to be all about. Each of us has our own thoughts on how things could have been better. The problem is we aren't the devs and we don't know exactly what they have in store for us. That's caused a lot of fear and fear leads to blame, historically at people who have nothing to do with the actual problem. Trust me I have a long list of people I blame but even if we found a culprit it isn't going to change anything. So I think it's time to get past these issues and look at where we are going rather than try to find the driver who put us here. Are the devs looking for ideas from us on additional potential inspirations? If so, I have a long list. Are the devs looking for ideas to deal with the afk issue? If so I have a long list of ideas there as well. Well, okay maybe not a long list, but I have a few.
Drygo, I really was joking when I said it was your fault. Please don't slap me. Though if you must can I pick your outfit?
I think that I mostly agree with Warryr here in regards to extremes. That does seem to be the overall pattern. And, if I'm gonna be honest, I think that most people on these boards take it to extremes in one way or another. One of the things that I was trying to get across in that old post Panthu dug up was that it does not ever have to be either/or. In fact, when it's either/or it almost always turns out badly.
Do I want to make it necessary that every single player has to absolutely come see us? No.
Do I want to make it that nobody ever wants to come see us? No.
But, there can be a happy medium. While I'm not trying to change the topic to inspirations, I will just say that I believe these inspirations can, with time, become that happy medium. I like to make an analogy to tailors. Nobody really needs a tailor, but most people go to tailors anyway, whether or not it has to do with skill tapes or sockets. People like and enjoy wearing different clothes. And, that mindset spans all the way from entertainers to hardcore Jedi grinders. With enough time and creativity, these inspirations and new ones that are made, can be exactly like the clothes that tailors make. Nobody will need them, but people will want them. And, whether anybody believes it's true or not, I honestly think that people DO like to come and see performances from time to time. But, you gotta do something different. Nobody wants to come in and here the same music and see the same dances all the time. But, people stop and they *watch* when you've got a group of dancers dancing in sync. People eat that stuff up. And, people will think it's cool when you've got a group performing with matching props. You don't have to believe me, but that has honestly been my experience. It can happen if content for us streams in on a regular basis...even if we can get a new dance and/or a new prop every few months, people will want to see that.
Having said that, whether some people brought it up or not, devs using the "forced interaction" simply doesn't wash. Not when the entire rest of the professions require it. It's a double standard. And, as Chessack says, it's ironic that this double standard applies to the social professions.
And, I also just want to say that Panthu is not at all to be blamed for anything. The only agenda the corrs push is the agenda of the majority of posters on the boards, not their own. To be honest, I can tell this is true with Panthu, because a lot of her opinions, which she is now completely free to express now that she's no longer a corr, oftentimes don't agree with the agenda she was pushing at the time of her correspondency, because that agenda was ours, not hers.
I also have to agree with Panthu in that there is a huge difference between asking people to shut up and not being worried about the changes. Because, seriously, will the whining and complaining and flaming help us? No. You know that. I know that. We all know that. So, while I'd encourage anyone and everyone to make their voices heard on BF (and yes, while it doesn't necessarily bother me, I don't think it's a good game decision), it is also equally important that credit is given where credit is due. New dances, songs, inspirationsand props? YAY! OMG I'M SO PSYCHED ABOUT THAT! (No, I am NOT being sarcastic.) And, I know the way to get more of this stuff, which I want, is to say thank you to the people and devs that made this possible. Because, regardless of how you feel about battle fatigue, can you honestly say you don't want this new stuff? Battle Fatigue and dances/props are two completely different issues. Would it make sense for an Artisan to start complaining that he hasn't gotten a new style of house to build because the devs wasted their time on making houses color customizable? NO. Two completely different things. Any development time is good development time even if it may not be your #1 priority. Making inflammatory posts to push development to the side because you're not getting exactly what you want is doing nobody any good whatsoever. By all means, be critical if you think BF shouldn't go away. But, for goodness sake, do not in the same breath say, "don't waste time on props when you should be doing this other thing." It makes no frickin' sense and it's never going to help the situation.
And, one other thing...I've seen shades of "buffs didn't work, BF did." For the love of all that is holy. That is so so WRONG it's not even funny. Buffs didn't work because of AFK! It all stems from AFK, the resentment, the bots, the flamewars, the fights. All because of AFK! If AFK had never existed and if time was spent tweaking some things and making mind pool not the be all and end all, I have no doubt in my mind that mindbuffs would have been a success! But, everything that is killed in this game, the vast majority of things that are ruined, from entertainment to spawn campers to underpricing, it was ALL because of AFK. And, I DO take MAJOR issue with the devs taking active measures to stop afk in other professions except entertaining. That sucks and I am still bitter about that, and I have no problem at all flaming the devs up and down these forums and dragging them out by the hair and spraying their eyes with lysol until they get rid of the damn AFK.
BUT...you know what? inspirations, props, dances, songs...I WELCOME that, always, and I want the devs to know that they are NOT wasting their time doing these things, and that I greatly want to see more of it and that I really appreciate the work that was put into them. They DESERVE thanks and gratitude for it. Because they are trying to make the game more fun for us. I haven't an inkling of suspicion that they are ever doing anything purposely to make people angry. They may be wrong sometimessomewhat frequently, but it's not malicious intent on their parts.
Honestly, there can be a happy medium. And, every time I see people knock the good things just because they didn't get their priorityissue, it makes me insanely annoyed. I wanna throttle people sometimes because they just don't know how to compromise or work towards the middle. One way or the other, that's what it's gotta be.
*valium*
The "staff meeting" line was intended to be tongue-in-cheek, yes. I do try to keep the tone light when disagreeing. It is possible to disagree with people you like without not liking them anymore. And as an aside, out of all the forums in all the message boards I've experienced, the Dancer forum is one of the best for seeing this in action, occasional lapses of temper notwithstanding.
Speaking of lapses of temper, I apologize for mine. At the time, it looked to me like I was being called a liar. I should have waited until I got home to reply -- not only so I could cool down, but also because my stat report for this afternoon is going to suck.
Panthu wrote:
Why is it important to force people to come to the Cantina?
9/30/04. 11 days after registering. I'm not even sure what I was trying to say there. But that thread isn't about BF, it's about buffs. I just reread it; only two people mentioned BF at all, and one of them was an iggerant newb (that would be me).
And that's also the answer to Pappi's question. BF worked where buffs didn't. BF had a real world rationale and buffs don't. BF downtime was acceptable and buff downtime gave rise to buffbots. Now I'm sure someone will come back with some particular example of a leetmonkey grumbling about BF, but in all the time I've been reading this boards, it's consistantly been BUFFs that people argued about. It was buffs this and buffs that, and definately buffs that justified the bots to their owners and users. Battle Fatigue hardly ever got mentioned in this forum until now. Now, all of a sudden, it's BF that's been the cause of all our sorrows? That isn't how it looked to me all these months. Panthu says,
Panthu wrote:
As Goldy said, it was discussed a lot.
I say, *BUFFS* were discussed a lot. I got my wish. The mind buff is gone, and good riddance. But now it looks like BF is getting undeservedly saddled with the rap for the damage buffs did. I don't recall any thread anywhere about getting rid of Battle Fatigue.
As for criticizing the devs, I think it's justified. I don't think they're "mean" or "evil" or "out to get us". I do think they suck at their job, and I have some firsthand experience to base that opinion on, both as a coder and an end player of many games. The play experience of SWG proves they're lousy game designers. The bugs -- more because of kind than number -- show up their poor coding skills. Their support for AFking says bad things about their sense of sportsmanship and fair play. And the way they interact with their customers on these forums and elsewhere, especially in contrast to the two other dev teams I've seen in action, is really pitiful. These guys are to game development what White Lion was to hair bands.
This game has two things going for it, neither of which the current dev team can take any credit for. #1, the Star Wars monniker. #2, the original game concept, with its full spectrum of interactive, interdependant professions, that has no competition from any other game on the market. SOE has never, from day one, succeeded in making anything of the first, and the dev team have been slowly but surely eroding the second since before I got here. They haven't succeeded yet, but if you could host something like a Cantina Crawl in WWIIonline I would trade in my frills for rag curls and a slinky red dress like that. I suspect it's true for a lot of us that the #1 reason we're still here is that there is nowhere else to go.
Now, if you want to see dev bashing, dig up the old "we're delaying the Combat Balance until after JTL is released" thread. I'm a paragon of restraint by comparison.
Cindal wrote:
Panthu cannot be held responsible for this turn of events.
I don't see anyone blaming Panthu for the changes to our profession. Well, except for Reachwind, who is out of his gourd. What I do see is this:
Chessack wrote:
You certainly act like you DO have a problem with people being worried. In fact, every time anyone dares to make an eloquent post saying just how worried she (or he) is about the changes on the TC and what impact those will have on the profession, you say, in effect, "Shh! If the devs hear you we might get all the changes shelved!"
That doesn't sound like someone who "has no problem" with people being "worried about this." If you really had no problem with it, you wouldn't try to shut them up.
This, I think, has some truth to it. And I would hardly call this a flame, Panthu. As forum disagreements go, that was pretty damned constructive. Maybe it could have used a couple I-messages, but it was on point and didn't include any name-calling. You said,
Panthu wrote:
I've always been a bit of a cheerleader and I don't know why that's surprising anyone now.
I think it's because, for the first time, you're cheering something that a lot of us don't like.
Umi
Message Edited by Sunjammer on 07-08-2005 07:55 PM
They are not erecting a new one, they are remodeling an old one. And in the process have gutted the plumbing, sewage and electricity making it unlivable for the current tenents. Removing the core of our interacton with the game mechanics and not having a suitable replacement already established is the worst kind of poor planning. I do project amangement, if i removed something crucial during an expansion or upgrade I damn well better have something equal or superior in place immediately or I would be out of a job. We are paying customers, treating us like this is a sure fire way to lose us and our money.
ZinaTheMaker wrote:
Please think of it this way, and this will be it for me here (at least for now)
If you have an old building, and you plan on erecting a new one in its place, you first destroy the old building, then lay the foundation for the new one.
You do not just "drop" a new building over the old one...