Dancer Archive
Thread: So What Will Be The Point of Being a Novice Doing Basic 2?
What are you going to say to her?
I'll tell her what I would say to her, and it would be something on the level of:
"I wish you were around in the time just after the CU. Because althoughbad, apathetic, and unattendeddancers were sometimes /watched,bad, apathetic, and unattended dancers werehardly tipped, and could never force a tip for subjecting the audience to such things. Hard work paid off. Patrons knew what the real work was, and it made sense to them. You could actually make it as an entertainer, because the things measured by the skill boxes never really were anything that had much to do with the good things you gave an audience. The things measured by the skill boxes gave you the things you wanted, and not needed to do your craft. I am sorry we became confused. We were under the impression at the time that a Master of our craft was measured in the number ofenhancements we could give. And I must say we are sorry. We did not intend the profession to become the exact opposite of what we hoped it would be for you, for our patrons, and for us. Because we have created a system that forces us all to make choices we shouldn't have to make. One should never have to decide between a good performance, and a good set of buffs."
PoetDancer wrote:
What are you going to say to her?
I'll tell her what I would say to her, and it would be something on the level of:
"I wish you were around in the time just after the CU. Because althoughbad, apathetic, and unattendeddancers were sometimes /watched,bad, apathetic, and unattended dancers werehardly tipped, and could never force a tip for subjecting the audience to such things. Hard work paid off. Patrons knew what the real work was, and it made sense to them. You could actually make it as an entertainer, because the things measured by the skill boxes never really were anything that had much to do with the good things you gave an audience. The things measured by the skill boxes gave you the things you wanted, and not needed to do your craft. I am sorry we became confused. We were under the impression at the time that a Master of our craft was measured in the number ofenhancements we could give. And I must say we are sorry. We did not intend the profession to become the exact opposite of what we hoped it would be for you, for our patrons, and for us. Because we have created a system that forces us all to make choices we shouldn't have to make. One should never have to decide between a good performance, and a good set of buffs."
... so I'll bow out of this thread now. 
Doriana wrote:
The truth is that if the new system is as AFKable as the current system or the old system, none of this will matter. There will never be any improvement in cantinas, and there will never be any sort of social atmosphere or community center. But that holds true for the BF system as well as anything new. Are we already forgetting that "recursive macros are being removed" thread where literally hundreds of people posted that the devs just couldn't get rid of AFK entertainers because then no one would be able to get their BF healed, and BF healing was required to function in game? Even more people used this justification than people using mind buffs as justification..
Dare I say it again? QFE
If all of these buffs are completely afk'able and there is no advantage whatsoever to people playing at the keyboard, then it won't do us any good. In fact, if that's going to be the case, I would say, CAN IT NOW. I don't want them.
The inspirations are not the problem. The AFK is. And, if you get to a point where you can't AFK, then you are not going to have boring, dull entertainers. I mean, who is going to just sit there watching there toon being boring? They won't. They will interact with people and they will try to mix it up a bit with various types of performances. The reason some entertainers don't do that right now, is because they are AFK. Get rid of the AFK, and the tips will be based on merit, performance, and amusement.
PoetDancer wrote:
So What Will Be The Point of Being a Novice Doing Basic 2?
Message Edited by --Qilue-UCW-- on 07-10-2005 08:02 PM
Panthu wrote:
We aren't actually allowed to do this kind of tip for tap exchange on these boards that you and I have been doing, and as a glowie I know better
--Qilue-UCW-- wrote:
For an entertainer who is doing Basic 2, tips should not be an issue.. there is really no need for money at that level, I didn't need money till 30 days out when I was given my first speeder and house, then had to start paying maintinance, and repair costs...
Oops.. I meant to say Money, not Tips..
PoetDancer wrote:
--Qilue-UCW-- wrote:
For an entertainer who is doing Basic 2, tips should not be an issue.. there is really no need for money at that level, I didn't need money till 30 days out when I was given my first speeder and house, then had to start paying maintinance, and repair costs...
Then for whom should tips be an issue?
Boring master dancers, simply because they are masters?
Shaizann wrote:
Panthu wrote:
We (All posters) aren't actually allowed to do this kind of tip for tap exchange (dominating a thread with long back and forth replies just in between two people)on these boards that you and I (me and Sirii)have been doing, and as a glowie (someone who is very familiar withthese forum rules)I know better
Huh?, You're not allowed to debate entertainer changes and issues because you're a glowie? If thats so, then the Devs are bing more bitter than I thought.
I have a better question I think, and it's this: why, after publish 20, would any entertainer have any need whatsoever to be in any cantina, anywhere, at any time?
I mean let's think about this for a second. Interdependency works both ways (hence the prefix "Inter"). The combat-wombats were dependent on us for healing, and we were depending on them for our experience. One of the complaints we have had is not that BF isn't meaningful but that it isn't being "awarded" at anything like the same rate as it once was, making our heal XP very hard to come by. Dancers who AFKed in the cantina did so because they had to. When we told them "go do it in private," they responded "I can't get heal XP that way."
But now heal XP is out of the game, and as I understand it, all XP is just given "per tick", wherever, and whenever, you dance or play music. So, the question is, since we don't need their wounds anymore, what's to keep us in the cantina at all? It used to be "that's the only place you can gain half of your needed XP" but that's not true anymore. If we are "all about entertaining" and just want to "put on a show" and all this, since after all we are "not healers" and "never were", then what's to stop us from doing our entertaining, oh, say, at the starport? We can still interact with and entertain the people who are interested, and will be as always ignored by those who aren't, but now people who want/need buffs, won't be getting them, will they? Because while I can get XP wherever I want, "you" (the editorial you, since we can all self buff here) can't get your buffs from wherever you want.
So they've introduced this very strange asymmetry to the game design in multiple ways. Dancers want to be WATCHED, but they took away 90% of the reason anyone had to watch us. Those who do have a reason want to be BUFFED, but they pretty much took away 100% of the reason I would ever park myself in the cantina in the first place (to heal, and to be watched, neither of which is likely to happen much in a public cantina after pub 20 goes live).
If you don't think the cantinas are going to end up empty as a result of this, look at what happened to medical centers and medics. Do you ever see a doctor attending any medical center anymore? Nope... and why not? Because they can't get XP there anymore. They get their XP everywhere BUT there, basically, so they go out "into the field" and heal, and getting wounds healed is one big fat pain in the ass right now, because it's difficult to impossible to find a doc who is in the mood to heal you. Why would we think the same isn't going to happen to cantinas? Oh we can talk about sociality all we want. Sure there will be a handful of us (I will be one) stubbornly plucking our Mandoviolins in the near-empty cantina in one place on each server (if the population's lucky). But for the vast majority of players, finding a buff even if they want to bother with one, is going to be just about as easy as finding a doc when you need your wounds healed.
I've said it before and I will say it again. Social class or not, players will do what you reward them to do. If you do not reward them for going into cantinas to ply their entertainment trade they won't bother. What we are seeing is a switch from "they need us, and we need them" (INTER-dependence) to "We don't need them and they don't need us" (IN-dependence). It strikes me that in an online game where it's all supposed to be about the INTERdependence, this is the wrong direction to be heading in.
But I guess that's just me....
C
Chessack wrote:
This question actually made me think of something totally different. You asked "What is the point of novice doing basic2?" meaning, why would someone watch the novice in the cantina, when there is a master present?
I have a better question I think, and it's this: why, after publish 20, would any entertainer have any need whatsoever to be in any cantina, anywhere, at any time?
I mean let's think about this for a second. Interdependency works both ways (hence the prefix "Inter"). The combat-wombats were dependent on us for healing, and we were depending on them for our experience. One of the complaints we have had is not that BF isn't meaningful but that it isn't being "awarded" at anything like the same rate as it once was, making our heal XP very hard to come by. Dancers who AFKed in the cantina did so because they had to. When we told them "go do it in private," they responded "I can't get heal XP that way."
But now heal XP is out of the game, and as I understand it, all XP is just given "per tick", wherever, and whenever, you dance or play music. So, the question is, since we don't need their wounds anymore, what's to keep us in the cantina at all? It used to be "that's the only place you can gain half of your needed XP" but that's not true anymore. If we are "all about entertaining" and just want to "put on a show" and all this, since after all we are "not healers" and "never were", then what's to stop us from doing our entertaining, oh, say, at the starport? We can still interact with and entertain the people who are interested, and will be as always ignored by those who aren't, but now people who want/need buffs, won't be getting them, will they? Because while I can get XP wherever I want, "you" (the editorial you, since we can all self buff here) can't get your buffs from wherever you want.
So they've introduced this very strange asymmetry to the game design in multiple ways. Dancers want to be WATCHED, but they took away 90% of the reason anyone had to watch us. Those who do have a reason want to be BUFFED, but they pretty much took away 100% of the reason I would ever park myself in the cantina in the first place (to heal, and to be watched, neither of which is likely to happen much in a public cantina after pub 20 goes live).
If you don't think the cantinas are going to end up empty as a result of this, look at what happened to medical centers and medics. Do you ever see a doctor attending any medical center anymore? Nope... and why not? Because they can't get XP there anymore. They get their XP everywhere BUT there, basically, so they go out "into the field" and heal, and getting wounds healed is one big fat pain in the ass right now, because it's difficult to impossible to find a doc who is in the mood to heal you. Why would we think the same isn't going to happen to cantinas? Oh we can talk about sociality all we want. Sure there will be a handful of us (I will be one) stubbornly plucking our Mandoviolins in the near-empty cantina in one place on each server (if the population's lucky). But for the vast majority of players, finding a buff even if they want to bother with one, is going to be just about as easy as finding a doc when you need your wounds healed.
I've said it before and I will say it again. Social class or not, players will do what you reward them to do. If you do not reward them for going into cantinas to ply their entertainment trade they won't bother. What we are seeing is a switch from "they need us, and we need them" (INTER-dependence) to "We don't need them and they don't need us" (IN-dependence). It strikes me that in an online game where it's all supposed to be about the INTERdependence, this is the wrong direction to be heading in.
But I guess that's just me....
C
That is perhaps the most brilliant work of analysis of our future since, I daresay, The Customer in a World of Dedicated, Unattended Entertainment.
And I do think it is true. Then again, if there is one thing I have learned, its that these professions survive on "raincheques" a lot more than they should. The entire two years of history we have are marked by periodic moments of stability, and long wastelands of anticipation for something that affords us a game to play.
But Panthu dear, now you have me confused. Because I thought you were of the opinion that our game should focus around selling non-combat enhancements. But now it seems you are for drawing a salary?
And I am not asking this in terms of what we want. That is a matter that is subject to a wide degree of interpretation. I am asking this in terms of what you want.
Don't be afraid. I'll only bite if you go AFK.
No, I think our game should center around performance and entertainment value. I think our main service can be buffs and most likely should be non-combat. I have always approved of Cantina Salaries from the system and large pay outs from quests/missions (Spy/Dance Game/Fame). I've mentioned this in multiple threads in the past week even.
PoetDancer wrote:
But Panthu dear, now you have me confused. Because I thought you were of the opinion that our game should focus around selling non-combat enhancements. But now it seems you are for drawing a salary?
Some of us are open to many different players having many different options with this profession. *shrug*
Don't be afraid. I'll only bite if you go AFK.
I hope this was just something you for some reason thought would be cute to say and not meant to be any kind of backwards comment about me. I'm one of the few players that the AFK snubbing did work on immediately. I've always been very straight forward about that.
Of course, I'm straight forward about pretty much everything. I guess that might be confusing for someone who can't bring themselves to drop character ever though. It's ok, I don't mind having my actual real views explained over and over again as long as people remember I'm just one more player with some opinions - just like everyone else in here with out a red name. 
Panthu wrote:That's why I'm in favor of a game mechanic reward for entertainers going to the cantinas (cantina salary with a check in, group missions with neat rewards, spy flavored content quests/missions).I'm also in favor of making there be both rewards (mini games, interactive quests) and useful things (ATMs, message boards, player service terminals) in the cantinas for non-Ents.If we're all drawn there, social exchanges should happen naturally and our services might as well be provided there instead of the starport if the cantinas are truly transformed into social hubs where all people gather.
That's all well and good. I agree it would be nice to have these other elements in the cantina. However, there are two issues. #1, the practical one, is that although this is all very nice in theory, in practice, it won't happen any time soon. We know that right now, we are getting BF taken out and some new window dressing put in. We know that at some point in the future new inspiration buffs will be added... if we are lucky this should happen in a couple of months. These other things you have mentioned are, so far as we know, not even on the drawing board, and even if they were to be implemented, it'd be 6 months to a year. So the question remains -- what is to keep us, as well as patrons, going into the cantinas in the mean time?
I think one fundamemtal problem here is that the devs do not think about it this way at all, or at least they seem not to. Entertainers are socializers and they seem to figure well, we can just socialize with each other. But for many of us this is not satisfying because we are entertainers, and the idea is to perform for people, not for ourselves.
Issue #2 is about fundamental game design. Ever since JTL came out with the space loot that was as good as, or better, than anything a shipwright could craft, and now with all the new loot they have added to the game that's also better than what other crafters can make (knuckles of katarn, etc), they are increasingly removing interdependence from all aspects of the game, not just entertainment. This is a major, tectonic shift in design, from a world where the players provide everything for each other, to one where they need each other for nothing but realtime combat (where grouping is pretty much forced on you unless you really like to progress slowly). It used to be if you wanted to make real money you needed other players to do it -- you had to sell product to them in some way. Now you don't even need that, because the looted stuff you get that's not useful can be sold to junk dealers or space chasis guys or whatever. And now, we are suggesting a cantina system where you are paid by the computer for being there, presumably because there's no way in hell a player would pay you for the pittance of a service you are able to provide for him (or her) anymore. So now we are in the cantina performing because the computer pays us to, and they are in there because that is where you go to shop. This leaves us all in the same place, but are we even interacting anymore at this point? It seems like the game has gone from one where you have to interact to get anything accomplished, to one where you just coexist with other players, and, short of hunting (where it is now pretty much required), all other interaction is entirely unnecessary.
As someone who liked the "build a whole world that is run by the players" approach of the original game design, the whole new direction just makes me sad. On a very real level, this game is quickly matching City of Heroes not just in combat playstyle, but also in utter shallowness. It's nowhere near as deep as it once was, and with every new publish, they remove more and more of what was special and replace it with more and more generic MMO stuff.
C