Dancer Archive
Thread: Petition to boycott cantinas until something is done about AFK Entertainers.
This was my post in another thread, but I'm putting it here too since it's relative:
Hehe. You forget that this game is also targeted at the casual gamer who has never played RPG's before, & they are trying to make the game attractive to both kinds of players. Andthat means allowing the casual gamer be AFK at times in order to accomplish things that otherwise could not be done at the same rate as the hardcore RPG players.
I have no problem with AFK dancers, musicians, & entertainersas long as they manually put up the AFK tag so people know they are AFK & won't tip them by accident if they don't want to tip people who aren't really there.
There are a lot of advantages to having AFK performers:
1. They make the group bigger which shoots uphealing rates. Most patrons will heal faster due to the larger group. Butthey stillenjoy the company& conversations withthe live performers better,& that's usually who they'll tip. It makes your job easier, plus you make more in tips than if allyour competition was there live.
2. Also by bulking up group size, they greatyincrease the amount ofperformance xp during training. Anyone who kicks an AFK performer out before the group has reached max size & there are live people waiting to get in ishurting the whole group. You are much better off leaving them there & getting the group as big as possible. Then if you're maxed & live people want in, start booting them one at a time to let the new people in so your group is always at 20 strong.
I have even recently started recommending that people put the "/join" command into their macros so it repeats every few minutes, so that if I had to boot them during busy times to let someone live in, I could then re-invite them once things get slow again & people start leaving.
It's always better to have as big an entertainergroup as possible, & it's also always better to not have entertainers not in your group if at all possible.
). I've been playing since a week after launch, having a blast, and I only recently made Novice Dancer! Is being a Master that much better? I got the impression it was just same deal, different dance -which is just fine with me! My profession is really just a backdrop to the fun I'm having, anyway... 
xiani wrote:
I do not mean to come accross as argumentative so pleasedon't take it as such Sinda. I truly did not mean to be accusatory but to classify me as one who is making false accusations isinnacurate.The fact remains that nothing has been done about it. And by your own admission,has been a lingering concernfor months.
Please don't take it personally, though I know it probably came across that way. I've just read far too many complaints on the main board that present the SWG devs as lazy, incompetent, non-customer-centric ... and judging from what several correspondents have told me of their direct dealings with the Devs on Test, this is far, far, from the truth. Judging from my experiences in other MMOGs, however, the Devs will always be the whipping boys, rightly or not. Your essential point also ignores the fact that SOE did not organize and plan the Correspondent program very well at the outset - but that oversight has now been corrected. What you're complaining about is a situation that doesn't really exist anymore.
Step #1, The "targeted buffs,"do nothing to remedy theAFK issue. This is like comparingapples to oranges. AFK'ers could care less aboutnot being able to target someone for a buff. All they care about isgaining the xp necessary to attain master status...
I don't frankly care what the AFKers want. Most of them don't even know or care that we're plotting against them
...and I don't even have to get into Step #2.Howdoes making entertainer missions non-AFK-able impact the prevaling AFKproblem?
First of all, the main goal of #2 is to give entertainers a method of making reasonable money. Designing the missions so they cannot be AFK'd will, once again, reduce the attractiveness of being an AFK zombie and force some of these zombies to actually play -- or change class.
Once again, yes,we know they aremaking these changes. My question to you is what do these changes have to do with the prevailing AFK issue?
Perhaps they're not direct, and maybe it takes a little creative imagination to understand, but anything we can do to encourage at-keyboard entertainment will also discourage and diminish AFKing. To me, it's always preferable to offer the carrot before you bring out the stick. I don't necessarily want to ban these people or shove them off a cliff. I just want them to either start playing their character or switch to another profession so they don't make the rest of us look so bad.
Now Step #3...this is what we need. But there is no indication that this is actually taking place, is there? Currently it's just wishfulthinking on all of our parts.
As I said before, if you will read Ravenmist's posts you will see that you are mistaken. The Devs are very much interested in addressing the situation and preventing long-term AFKing. That was my point from the top of my response to you - we've been cussing and discussing AFK macroing on this board since release day, and since about 2 weeks ago we've actually started getting some positive response from SOE through our correspondent. (It's taken that long because the Correspondent program was not operating properly until then) I think it's the responsibility of any Dancer who wants to post on this board to at least be passingly familiar with what Ravenmist has said, especially regarding her conversations with the Devs.
So having said that, let me help you out. On 9/24, in the thread http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=dancer&message.id=6370&view=by_date_ascending&page=1 Ravenmist said of her discussions with the Devs on Test:
"There are several possible solutions to getting rid of the AFK entertainers being discussed and worked on. I can assure you all that every change we're talking about and making is also trying to diminish the ability to AFK entertain and its overall usefullness to people while making those of us that are at their keyboards a valuable asset to the community."
So please do not accuse me ofmaking false accusations. It has an undeservednegative conotation toit...and does justifiablyrefutethe pointof this post, whichs is......that to date, nothing has in fact been done about this issue.
Your point seemed to be that the Devs don't care and aren't working on a solution. And that assertion is wrong -- i.e., your accusations were false, though you seem to believe I implied some kind of malicious intent. I didn't. I simply don't think you've taken the time to read up on what Ravenmist (and also New Jedi on the musician board) has passed along to us. If you had, you wouldn't havestartedthis thread in the first place.
xiani wrote:
and does **nothing to** justifiablyrefutethe pointof this post, whichs is...
...that to date, nothing has in fact been done about this issue.
I shouldn't be butting into Ravenmist's territory, but I feel the need to make a point.
The devs are VERY aware of the problem. Ravenmist, NewJedi and now myself have all made the point to them. Repeatedly. We've had discussions with the developers involved about the nature of the problem and the possible nature of any solutions to it.
Sinda is quite correct and you'd do well to listen to what she has to say. The biggest problem we face is that it's very difficult to "fix" the problem without nerfing either the profession or the macro ability. The devs deserve some credit for the fact that they're NOT rushing to put in a quick game mechanics fix for something that is ultimately a social problem.
Any change that is made to deal with AFK macrobots has to be one that 1) doesn't make the macro facility unusable and 2) doesn't overly burden the "at keyboard" players. For instance, many players have proposed popups similar to the "critical event" popups that happen during artisan sampling. That would go far to stymie AFK players. However, it also has a great potential to be an annoyance and even a disruption for a group of players that are at their keyboards giving a coordinated performance. Something obtrusive enough to disrupt the macro is going to be obtrusive enough to disrupt a performance as well.
The devs care about the entertainer professions enough to take the time to make sure that any solution implemented is the RIGHT solution. Keep in mind also that our professions DO work, (if they didn't there wouldn't be any macrobots) and the devs have to divide their attention between this sort of issue and the more pressing issues of professions that DON'T work like they are intended to.
Best thing to do is to be patient and let the correspondents know what ideas you have about ways to deal with the problem. I personally feel that any game mechanics solution to this problem is going to come from a player who says "What about this?" and then we all smack our foreheads and say "Why didn't we think of that?"
Sinda wrote:
Your point seemed to be that the Devs don't care and aren't working on a solution. And that assertion is wrong -- i.e., your accusations were false,
Is there anything in the below written paragraph that remotely resemblesthe above sentence?
I am left withthe impression that although the Dev's realizethis to be a problem,theynevertheless allow for itto happen in aneffort to compensate forsevices that are direly neededin the game, but whos profession was poorly designedand therefore unable to effectively satisfy its demands. So that instead of doing something about the problem, they instead do nothing to the detriment of all of us who havehave made this their primary profession and seek to instill respect and pride into it.
Please do not put words in my mouth in an effort tojustify yourpoint.
If the point you are trying to make is thata remedy is in fact on the way, thenso be it, I accept that. But please stop it with the false accusation drama because the fact, as it currently stands, is that...
...to date, nothing has in fact been done toremedythis issue.
BTW, I am by no means one of your resident Dev bashers.Ihave been one the most ardent supporters of the Dev's and the game. A quick search of my prior posts will readily substantiate this. I am just tired of AFK Entertainers so I chose to make a post about it.
Is that ok?
Thank you RipTide. Your considerate responseis greatly appreciated
SlickRiptide wrote:
xiani wrote:
and does **nothing to** justifiablyrefutethe pointof this post, whichs is...
...that to date, nothing has in fact been done about this issue.
I shouldn't be butting into Ravenmist's territory, but I feel the need to make a point.
The devs are VERY aware of the problem. Ravenmist, NewJedi and now myself have all made the point to them. Repeatedly. We've had discussions with the developers involved about the nature of the problem and the possible nature of any solutions to it.
Sinda is quite correct and you'd do well to listen to what she has to say. The biggest problem we face is that it's very difficult to "fix" the problem without nerfing either the profession or the macro ability. The devs deserve some credit for the fact that they're NOT rushing to put in a quick game mechanics fix for something that is ultimately a social problem.
Any change that is made to deal with AFK macrobots has to be one that 1) doesn't make the macro facility unusable and 2) doesn't overly burden the "at keyboard" players. For instance, many players have proposed popups similar to the "critical event" popups that happen during artisan sampling. That would go far to stymie AFK players. However, it also has a great potential to be an annoyance and even a disruption for a group of players that are at their keyboards giving a coordinated performance. Something obtrusive enough to disrupt the macro is going to be obtrusive enough to disrupt a performance as well.
The devs care about the entertainer professions enough to take the time to make sure that any solution implemented is the RIGHT solution. Keep in mind also that our professions DO work, (if they didn't there wouldn't be any macrobots) and the devs have to divide their attention between this sort of issue and the more pressing issues of professions that DON'T work like they are intended to.
Best thing to do is to be patient and let the correspondents know what ideas you have about ways to deal with the problem. I personally feel that any game mechanics solution to this problem is going to come from a player who says "What about this?" and then we all smack our foreheads and say "Why didn't we think of that?"
I have an easy solution handling the LAMErs without any progogam code.
1. The devs have only to address the LAMErs as the exploiters they are.
After an announcement, that someone expoits as macroers, the responsibles of SOE has to check the accusation, send a warning if the accusation was correct and for a recurrence of the exploit to ban the player, like they do it with the duper or other exploiters.
2. The Devs have to disclose in the SWG forum as sticky post, that this is an exploit and that they will act if someone is addressed.
This is plain and simple.
In DAOC Europe they had baned rigorously bug user and exploiters after two month, because it became worse and worse. And the majory of the customers welcomed this.
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Aniella (Gorath) Dancer
Boycotting Cantinas won't do anything except give the AFK entertainers a more exclusive cut of the XP. What we need for entertainers is more activated, targeted skills like /playfor or /dancefor in addition to the buffs that work much more effectively than the passive watching/listening.
.....Holy crap. That is one of the BEST ideas, I have EVER heard on a forum.
Not only does this solve the AFK entertainer problem, but a slew of other things. After all, there are two aspects to learning dancer/musician. Dancing/Music, and Entertainment healing. Now, here's the trick with the proposed /playfor and /dancefor command. Even if you go AFK and play music or dance, you can still get xp for music or dancing. Aha! The catch is, if you don't use the /dancefor, or /playfor command on a targeted player, you don't gain entertainment healing xp. hence, that stops an AFK entertainer from actually being able to master their class at all, because they need that entertainment healing to get ANYWHERE. This will force them to stay right there at the computer, and make sure that they are doing what they are supposed to be doing, and giving clientele that support. That's a good idea, I salute you on that idea!
I would much rather have an AFK entertainer at 4 a.m. then to need healing and have no one at all.
Ismova
Dearic, Talus
Shadowfire
Go to the Medic board and suggest that NPCs be added that provide healing for free, just in case you need healing at 4am and can't find a medic. Then, go to all the other boards for the other service professions (armorsmith, weaponsmith, architect, etc) and tell them that there need to be NPCs for their professions too because at 4am sometimes you just can't find what you need on their vendors and you're SOL.
See how that goes over.
No other profession in the game is perceived to require providing instant gratification, except the entertainer.
The designers are working on ways to make AFK entertaining less desirable. I'm not sure where they are in the process.
In the meantime, I agree with most of the posters here. Don't tip AFK entertainers. If you have a choice, watch/listen to a non-AFK entertainer instead of an AFK one. Whenever possible try to role play with Entertainers. It keeps you both engaged and is a good way to learn about local news/legends.
The true purpose of a cantina is a meeting place where you will more than likely run into other players and learn from them or start groups with them.
Kevin "Q-3PO" O'Hara
SWG Community Relations Manager
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At least we have now an official statement
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Aniella (Gorath) Dancer