Dancer Archive
Thread: Call for Action: Ravenmist?
Tandava wrote:
Ravenmist I wasn't asking you to send anything to the developers but asking about makingmore current posts to this board as ideas for the developers that we can track up top. I used the term because that's what the name of the thread is. Like the Merchant correspondent and the chef correspondents do on their boards.
They put up weekly "what are our main problems right now" posts on the top that everyone can look at. Seeing one old post on the top with the date of over a month ago doesn't generally invite people to look at it. As Sinda says the landscape has changed.
I'm not saying it has to be every week but it would be nice if every few weeks you did like you did before and put together our current concerns we think important to development.
Whenever you eventually do another letter to developers you can announce that but this is a way we can track changes without going back through 10 pages of disparate board threads.
I believe I covered why I don't do that in my post above as well...
"the fact that as time has gone on our major concerns have changed is exactly why I haven't bothered putting up another thread for people to post concerns on because many of those concerns will change between now and then."
I really I don't see a point in it. We bring up and discuss problems all the time on these boards, putting up a thread now that will be obsolete by the time I'm ready to do another report is a waste of mine and your time. As soon as the program is about to begin I'll start putting up those sort of threads again when the information on them will be current and useful to the reports I'm working on.
Cirroco_Una wrote:
the Entertainer profession is an absoltue waste of time, all we get from it is the joy of dancing and or playing music
Humm... I am not trying to be sarcastic here and I understand many people answering this thread are upset about things, and I do not want to cause them further hurt. However, I though "the joy of dancing and playing music" was rather the point of the profession. Saying "all we get from it" is kind of like a brawler saying "all he gets" from his profession is the ability to kill things and loot them, or like a sorcerer in Dungeons and Dragons saying "all he gets" from the profession is spellcasting and the ability to do lots of domination/persuade checks (due to high charisma). The whole reason I took up dancing was the joy of it, the fun of watching my toon animate, and most importantly, the socializing/RPing I get in the cantina, or other venues, with (and this is important) like-minded people. Generally the people who gravitate toward the dancer and musician professions (we've had a poll on this recently) are SE, SA, AS, or ES.. that is, first or second in their preference is socialization. Since that's my preference too, I am 'stacking the deck' toward getting like minded people around me to engage in the type of gaming I like -- roleplaying, socializing, etc. If I didn't want that, I'd have chosen another profession. So I am not sure why this is "all we get" -- it's what the profession is about, I thought.
Cirroco_Una wrote:
wedidn't provide any true service to anyone besides healing mind wounds and battle fatigue, and that's not a service that many people give a rip about
Ahhh... You (and many others I daresay) have fallen into the trap of the uber-leet gamers. This is how they want you to feel. A profession is of no use if it is not either (a) a kick-butt combat profession, or (b) a profession that improves someone else's kick-butt combat ability. So the fighter in Dungeons and Dragons "RoXXors" because it can wade into a mass of goblins and cleave them all in twain. A Wizard "RoXXors" because at high levels they can waste whole roomfulls of enemies in a single spell. And while Clerics can't do those things, they are good because they fill the role of (b), healing the fighters to keep them fighting (i.e. what's "important") or "buffing" them to make themb better at fighting (i.e. what's "important").
This is what the powerlevellers and combat-wombats think, and it's the trap they set for you to fall into. They think ALL that matters is combat and things that support it. Weaponsmiths? Useful only for making weapons -- who gives a rip about the economy? Artisans? Useful only for making harvesters, to give to the weaponsmiths, to harvest minerals, to make the weapons, to give to the fighters, so they can engage in "what's important" -- combat.
These people don't have a clue that very little real roleplaying takes place during combat. We, the entertainers, probably do have a clue about it, but we are vastly outnumbered (didn't someone quote the number of 3% of players on all servers play entertainers?). So it is easy to fall into the trap.
Just because THEY think all that matters is combat, why should you buy into that? I do not accept this assumption. Combat can be fun from time to time but what matters to ME is roleplaying, and I don't need battle ability to do it.
Cirroco_Una wrote:
no one showed us respect, rarely did we get tips and even rarer did we get a simple thank you.
Yes, this IS a problem. Because many -- most, I daresay -- participants in the game do not value anything but (a) combat ability and (b) directly supporive of combat abilities, they do not value our position and never will. They don't respect us, and won't tip us.
Well, I admit, lack of tips is a problem because without them you can't enjoy many aspects of the game. However, with that one exception I don't see the problem here. So I don't have the respect of some twerp with 14-year-old mentality (not age here, just mentality) who thinks that killing stuff = roleplaying? Oh, I am so upset by this... Not.
Ask yourself, just whose respect are you trying to earn? I for one have no desire to earn the respect of some moron who thinks that my character is "useless" just because she doesn't kick butt in combat (psst... little secret... she actually is halfway to master marksman, but don't tell anyone). Anyone who thinks that, is not worthy of my attention, and is sure not someone I am going to go out of my way to earn the respect of. That'd be as pointless as getting upset because some 4 year old thinks you "have the cooties." Which is about the level of intellect most of these brain-dead people have...
C
Sinda, this was an incredible post and I 100% agree. Currently the only thing we get from our skill tree is neat little animations which are only neat the first thousand times. As for the AFK problem we chould impliment an'Accept Audience'option. This would mean that when someone watches us ascreen would pop up requiring input as to whether we want to accept them as an audience member. Wham, nowno more healing experience for AFK. Suddenly, people will start tipping better and more often. I started my own post earlier todaytalking about these issues as I saw very little in the requests for dancers other than more neat little animations.
Chessak, that was perhaps the most overworded, ignorant reply I have ever seen. You are nothing but a S.N.O.B. You are correct in that the entire economy ismostly driventowards combat, so what. Because I enjoy roleplaying does not mean I should devalue someone who enjoys running around a dungeon killing monsters, then to each thier own. However if you were a true roleplayer with even rudimentary intelligence you would understand that nothing and I mean nothing can prevent you from roleplaying as long as you can communicate with others whose desire is also to roleplay. With the changes that Sinda has proposed it will give others more reason to interact with us instead of just running into a cantina and running out when they have had thier fill of the peep show. Perhaps you do not wish to interact with these 'wombats' and 'powergamers' which is understandable since you are a roleplaying snob, however if you truely wish to encourage roleplay then you should show them how it's done when they suddenly need to interact with you because of a change in the mechanics of the game.
C
. I do not understand why dancer/musician missions aren't scaled like delivery missions; the local ones are fine, but no increase for distance? Very silly . And I love the suggest for the accept audience window, much easier than /deny service and rewards the entertainers that never touch a macro....I am glad for the information I have seen on the board about mind buffs also (solo dancer in a quiet city) and didn't even know about it
Chessek I'm sorry if I took your post the wrong way, but from reading the quotes you were replying too I did not get the feeling that the person who wrote those quotes was upset about not being useful enough in combat. I love roleplaying, but I'm a bit touchy about roleplaying nazis as I have seen many games devolve from fun stress relief to people stressing out trying to conform to someone else opinion about what good roleplaying is.
what I like about Sindra's thread is that it was one of the first that I felt discussed making dancers something other than either a third wheel. It's true that most people do not give a hoot about the service that we provide. It is my desire to make our service more valuable to others. And yes that means playing into the combat economy, but I hate playing a piece of furnature. I have been harrassed to the point where I have left cantina's, and since I am often on low population planets where there are literaly onlya couple of other entertainers about novice on the planet, that says something about how much others value and respect our place within the game world. If you are the ONLY entertainer in an outpost and people do not care whether you are there or not, something within the mechanic needs to be fixed. Again I'm sorry if I misintepreted, I just felt you were saying leave entertainers alone and that if you are playing an entertainer you should be happy on your island.
OMG
Get off the soap box already
AFK dancers do not hurt anyone
Geesh get some self confidence, drop the jealousy, and log in with the intention of enjoying yourself and quit worrying about how others use their profession.
They pay their money same as you they can spend their time how ever they want it.
SOE will never do anything about afk dancers they are breaking no rules and using the tools given to us by SOE to dance.
They do not harm your reputation they cant touch your reputation you are known by and gain a reputation based on your actions not on someone else's.
I dont care what excuse you use to try to sugar coat it with in the end all it boils down to is your own sarcastic view on someone else trying to sharea spotlight next to youand being afk is the only hand hold you have to try to convince yourself your better than they are.
Well guess what?
Your not.
E'ro T'ca
In my opinion, AFK dancers are not the real problem. They contribute to the problem, but they're not the real problem.
The real problem is that there just isn't enough in the dancing professionto keep players actively dancing. As someone else said, after you've seen your character go through all the moves 1000 times, there's not a lot left. Sure, the social aspects keep us all in Theed or Coronet for a while, perhaps until we get Master, but after a while one's friends drop out and start running scout missions for the $$, and you're left alone with a bunch of newbies, many ofwhom AFK macro. Thecareer dancers retire as soon as they get Masterand go on to other professions.
This creates two major problems. Firstly there is nothing at all to keep players (apart from seriously hardcore roleplayers or those like me who take the mind-healing job ultra-seriously) in cantinas other than the ones on Coronet or Theed. Secondly, the tendency of accomplished dancers to leave the profession means that Coronet and Theed are populated by complete newbies or AFKers - and that means thatthe conversation (the only other thing we stick around for)is therefore limited. Added to these issues is the overwhelming issue of respect - entertainers just don't get any.
Unfortunately, dancing is really all I'm interested in (I'm just not interested in killing for profit). Unfortunately I'm getting burnt out because no one in the game (other than the dancers themselves)seems totake dancers or dancingseriously. So I'm thinking of giving the game up altogether. Crafting items is boring to me, so a career as aMedic or aDoctor is out of the question.
"SOE will never do anything about afk dancers they are breaking no rules and using the tools given to us by SOE to dance."
Actually, long-term AFKers ARE INDEED breaking the rules. There's a clause about AFK macroing in the terms and conditions statement. Macros are intended for at-keyboard play. They are a tool to relieve ACTIVEplayers from the tedium ofrepetetive keystrokes. They are not intended to be abused by players who would rather gain dancing experience while they sleep, read a book, do their real-life job, or surf the web.
While I agree that AFKersdo the job that's technicallyrequired of dancers (i.e. healing) in the game, they are not abiding by the rules, and they are not abiding by the spirit of a roleplaying game. They are literally going through the motions - but they are not playing the game.
Beery has hit the nail on the head. If there was some engaging gameplay (and I mean other than interacting with other people - which I find engaging but many others do not) on the way to Master Dancer people wouldn't AFK macro. Basically, it boils down to having something to do. I would love to return to the Mos Eisley cantina and dance there all the time. Problem is, there is hardly anyone there. Lok (another hangout of mine) is even worse. How long can you dance with yourself until it no longer becomes fun? Assuming at that point you still want to get xp, it's little wonder people begin to AFK macro. Every other profession can find something to do when they are by themselves (combat types can kill things, crafters can make things to put on vendors, even out cousins the medics can hunt for resources and craft things, heck even musicians have things they can craft.) We dancers just don't have that option. We are completely reliant on there being other people around in order to be able to do anything.
I'm not convinced that mission terminals are the answer either. How many times can you go to X location and dance for 15min until that gets old too?
"I'm not convinced that mission terminals are the answer either. How many times can you go to X location and dance for 15min until that gets old too?"
Actually, as I recall, up until a few weeks ago we had missions that sent us to other places to get a nice payoff. That was before dancing mission payouts were cut to the point of it not being worth even stepping out to get missions to dance in the localcantina. Before that time, you could find dancers everywhere. Nowdancers just congregate in Coronet or Theed. I think a lot could be accomplished by giving us back the large payoffs for dancing in out-of-the-way cantinas, hotels, and theatres. Keep local cantina missions low-paid, and get us running around the galaxy doing gigs for high pay. That will cut down on AFKers too, since trhey won't make the money that active players can.
Ok I've read this whole post and I'll throw in my two credits worth. Deny Service has not stopped the problems it was meant to fix it still goes on what it has done is given me a way to tell someone hey cut it out a little louder then simply batting my lashes at them. I like what has been done it is at least a start to the problems we face.
There will always be afk dancers let the thing drop I know you think they are takeing tips from you but hey most people dont' tip and those that do go to their regular dancers. Heh I get paid to go to other worlds just to dance for one person it's actually kinna nice actually knowing that not only do I get to talk with someone I get to help them out some and see a new place.
Let's face facts people it's not all the mechanics we need to change it's the attitudes as well being a master dancer/doctor/pistolleer I make more money takeing a faction mission and killing something than doing a little dance in the cantinas. I still spend a good portion of my days in the cantinas or player owned cantinas throughout the flurry galaxy. As I have been told countless times however you don't have to spend anything to do your little dance and heal people while I as a medic/any combat skill must constantly spend money why should I tip you. As if my sparkling personality isn't enough or the fact I'm working on ten deals helping buyer a find seller b instead of spending all of your time in the cantina. It is a serious fact that most other players think our only expenses are the nice new pretty dress. Well they are! I hate to say this someone will cut and paste and not put in the rest of my post I'm sure somewhere.
If that is the attitude they want enable the biocloth with dance specific perks let us heal the wounds of doctors or give out bigger mind buffs. Let us actually have something to compete with them needing that bigger gun or better armor. Those high quality ingredients to make the bigger stim or gun also. Make them see some value whatsoever in the entertaining class as a whole.
Raven don't let us griping get you down we know you are doing everything you can and we are just happy to hear from someone so we know that we are not alone out there.