Dancer Archive
Thread: TC Version 0.116143 Dancer Bug Thread
Lots of TC regs have it (I do there), but Deila might could ask that it be Frog trainable when they try to fix the idle loop displays.
PoetDancer wrote:
Second, is there anyone on TC prime that has completed the Theatre quest (To test Theatrical 1 and 2)?
Personally, I don't want any frellin' new dances if they can't be arsed to ship them properly.
But we love you anyway, Javy!
picklesSW wrote:
Yeah, because giving them feedback last time they shipped a dance with this problem really made a difference, huh? I'll say what everyone else is thinking, because I really don't care anymore and I don't like to mince words.
If they don't already know what's wrong with the "content" they just put on Test Center without us spelling it out for them in threads like this, then they need to take their heads out of their collective asses.
God I'm so bitchy today.
ChiiTWINS wrote:
I think the problem is that we're not so much pissed over something that's been broken STILL being broken... we're pissed because they're giving us MORE broken things to play with.
Personally, I don't want any frellin' new dances if they can't be arsed to ship them properly.
I would personally be rather upset if they held back any new dances for this. I have absolutely no problem performing any of the dances. I was on TC doing tumble yesterday and someone watching even said "I thought I read that dance was supposed to be broken. It looks fine to me." I just avoided the base dance, like I do with formal, lyrical and theatrical. Yes, I would like to see things fixed too... But they likely aren't even the same teams working on it. The new dances and music was content all ready to go, whereas the fix for the base dance is a complex issue that will probably take a bit of work to fix.
FuschiaD wrote:I guess they decided we're not worth the effort.I'm officially cynical.
They only tried to calm as down after the jukebox-affair.
Now we are calm and there is no need to fullfill "promises".
It would have been too much good stuff for us.
*smirk*
Regards,
Elvorien
Even once they do fix the "where is your av for the watcher" problem, we still have issues with base dances. They are meant to beidle animation filler in between flourishes, that's why our old Dev used to call them "Idle Dances" instead of "Base Dances" like we do. The problem is though, the animations that we have don't fit that concept.
They don't fit in as flawless transitions in between flourishes. This never gets talked about, but it really needs to. Once they do fix the big issue and watchers really are seeing the animation play correctly, there is still no guarantee that your careful timing will be seen.
Exotic3 is like this now. You will think that you have timed your flo entrance and exit perfectly with the base dance (usually through mixing) and it will look seamless to you on your own screen, but that usually is not what the other players will see. I know because I tested it. I can land a perfect timing on my screen, but my hands will be in a completely different position on another screen with a different toon watching me.
Once you know this, it makes you loopy. The point should be, we want people to see what we have planned to look like. It shouldn't be a blindfold experience. Looking good on your own screen isn't enough. So, I wrote this in the thread Deila started in the Glowie friendly Corr Forum (with a little bit of NDA stuff edited out). If you guys have better solutions you have thought of that would be easier to implement, please let Deila know so she can get this in our issues queue.
There are really two bugs/issues with the idle dances. The concept behind a base or idle dance is that it will be filler in between flourishes that blends in with the flourish animations. So, when you enter or exit a flourish animation, it should look seamless with the idle animation.
There are actually very few base dances that really accomplish this. They have to be very simple animations with little movement so that they blend in with the start and end of each flourish. Because the idle animation continues to run while a flourish is being executed, you will be dumped out in the middle of an idle animation cycle when you exit the flourish animation. That means if the idle animation has a turn, you might end your flourish and whip around backwards to the position of that turn in mid cycle.
It's very ugly and unnatural, it's like seeing an av slide across the floor or drop from mid-air, these things are fixed because they are immersion breaking, they are visual bugs and glitches. Dancer relies on these animations looking right.
Even after this issue about syncing up where the Dancer is in relation to the watcher is fixed, we still have the majority of our idle dances that do not work as they are intended (as blended in filler). Now with the new dance Tumble, not only will you see Dancers whipping around like the girl's head in the Exorcist, you will also see them warp to an upside down mid air position after finishing a flourish.
This can be fixed by either:
- Making each idle animation play a full cycle before playing the flourish that has been called, when the flourish is called, stop the idle animation, play the flourish animation, then start a new cycle of the idle animation from the beginning once the flourish animation has ended. Dancers would need to be able to queue up flourishes like Musicians do to avoid making this too tedious.
... or...
- Leave the current system in place, but allow all flourishes to be called from any idle dance. They all have visual issues anyway, but this way the Dancer could choose to pick the least problematic base dance for each flourish. Basic, Popular (Level 2 not 1 because the beginner version has a kick), and Poplock would probably be used the most because they are all basically stationary with no turns.
... or my personal favorite...
- Ditch the concept of an idle dance. Create a new system where dance routines are built before execution and stored to be called later. The hugest flaw in the Dancer set up is that it is treated like a casting system with out any normal effects from spells. It should actually be treated like a crafting system. Players should be able to pick which animation clips they want to use and put them in a stored order to create a set of moves or routines. This would create a need for preparation similar to crafting effort, but it would be much more satisfying in the end and would much better support the idea of "performance" as a goal.
*the rest is edited due to NDA*
I know some of us take pride in our ability to skip base animations and mix, but really it would be much better to have this fixed once and for all. Beyond that, even if you are the base dance skipping and mixing expert, it's still highly likely you are the only person really seeing your routinelike you intend it. We really need a more straight forward dance creation and execution process.
Message Edited by Panthu on 03-15-2005 02:37 PM
(That's bullet number 3 for those of you who have memories worse than mine.)
Landlubber wrote:
Well, my guess would be that the songs and dances were finished already, but that Bob the Plumber, who's in charge of rolling out entertainer content, was somewhat out of his depth in fixing the broken base dances...
Rofl! /hi5 Ailar SO needed that laugh....................
Tiaga wrote:
I like that too, except that it does cut down on some of the spontaneity of it all.
The first one would be the easiest I'd imagine, and as a side bonus, if done right it would fix the display issue as well as get rid of drift. Actually it's the only good way I can think of to fix the display issue. However, it would make synchronized dancing harder to do. It works for musicians because all their flourishes are the same length, but it wouldn't work so well for dancers I don't think.
Yeah, I really wish they would use one method for "Club Style Dancing" and the other for "Performances", but I think the performance pitch might have to come first if it's ever going to be seen as a goal.
You and Deila are much better with mechanics than I am. Deila has animation experience and you were the one who first explained the dead reckoning issue to me with the formal vs /dance example (then Keld had to go back and explain it to me even more, lol). That's why I decided to repost it out here, I know what we need on a basic level, but somebody else really needs to help pitch the practical application to the Devs.
Tiaga wrote:
Oh? I'd be interested to hear Keld's explanation of things.
Ok, well, I actually had three red tags try to explain it to me after you first made me understand what we should really be asking about with your lab: Code guy Keld, Art guy Jake, and Art guy Joe. If I knew who was working on it now, I would probably try to get them to explain it to me too, lol. So, anyway, this isn't pure Keld...
Basically, the server wants to know where Dancers are. Because of client to client sync issues (lag, whatever), sometimes the server has to sort of fake your position and animation based on what other people need to see. So, that's two issues 1) the server knowing where you are 2) other people seeing where you are/what you are doing.
The first one ties to things like warping back. The second one is seen for issues like seeing someone log out in one spot and then when they log back in, they "run" across the room.
With emotes, the server doesn't care where others see you - flos are handled like this. With base dances though, the game is both trying to determine where you are and also fake it for others so they can act accordingly. This is normally done for functional things like combat, because in that case things like range matters and has an impact.
The problem is, theseanimations move too much to be treated that way, the server can't keep up and fake it right for others. So, I don't know if they can fix itto work right or not. I don't know if they'll stop making the server fake where you are and just change it to be like emotes or if they think they knowhow to make it work right. Could it create an issue where the server loses our position entirely? Keld kinda hinted that was a risk, but I might have misunderstood him
I really don't know the technology well enough to guess. I mean, I'm strong on TCP/IP, but this isn't normal data transfer, lol.
Jake and Joe explained to me how the mocaps were taken, which we kinda saw from the video at FF, so I know that the way these different animation sections fit together can be done differently, because they had actually planned for much more "mix and matching" when they did the capture.
That's why I'm pretty sure we can ask for this to be done differently. The comparison to spell casting is my own, but that's pretty much the way the base dance/flo thing was setup. Because we aren't in battle though where things like range, casting time, and other tactical issues come into play, I think the whole old system could be easily thrown out as long as there is another way to implement these animations that will not be a huge undertaking.
The thing with the server losing where you are completely was actually a thought that crossed my mind.