Dancer Archive
Thread: Interesting.
Dreamland wrote:
Thats certainly not my problem with it at all nor would i think it's the main concern of any anti afker. Why can't you see that if 90% of the player base is afk there is noone to make friends withor spend 3 months liiving a life online with. Why not go get a copy of morrowind, or kinghts of the old republic, or neverwinter nights and master that because it'd be the same difference. When you take the people out of the equation what the heck are we even paying for? a massively multimacroing soloplaying online game.
Ewoksniper wrote:
IMHO the biggest problem with the AFK/NAFK debate is that people actually give a darn about what the player next to them is doing and how fast they do it. Boo hoo, they mastered X class in 3 days and it took me 3 months. Rather than Hey, I really enjoyed my 3 months and I made a lot of friends and I did this and that and enjoyed the life I led online. The guy that finished in 3 days is sitting there equally satisified at his accomplishment. We all have different goals in the game. Stop trying to 'keep up with the jones's'. Of course this is just a useless point because the only thing certain in the online world is that everyone will disagree.
Velvet-dancer wrote:
"I have a feeling you are exaggerating the problem slightly. "
How would you know? You're not at your keyboard for a good part of the time you're playing.
Excellent Retort, are you at every cantina on every planet at the same time?
Ewoksniper wrote:
So if you take me out of the game because I can't macro, does that erally create a more social environment for you?
Faellyn wrote:
Ewoksniper wrote:
So if you take me out of the game because I can't macro, does that erally create a more social environment for you?
Ummm, yes!
If you're not able to be PLAYING the game, log the **edit** off!
Ummm, care to elaborate or can you? How does the taking a variable (afk players) and removing the variable change the outcome of your socialization? Do more ATK entertainers come back? Do you have any basis for your arguments at all?
Totoally agree with Ewok. And you make your point so well. I would elaborate more, but it's 5:30! the weekend! andI'm about to go home to my afk dancer.
I sense some trolling coming though, keep your head down.
Ewoksniper wrote:
If anything the trend is leaning to more automated systems like scripting and macroing functionality because that is what a large contingency of the player base wants.
The player base has not yet seen what is going to happen when they are all doing this yet. It's been hinted above: the "multiplayer" environment turns into a solo game.
You're making my argument for me. The trend on macroing/AFKing is increasing. We have not seen anything close to its peak yet.
I believe firmly that AT its peak, many people are going to give up and throw in the towel and quit these games entirely, and the revenue from them will decline to the extent that they are not as financially viable as they are today. We're not there yet, so saying, "Well it's not like that now," is a moot point. It will get there. Not today, not this year, maybe not for 10 years, but it will get there, and when it does, the companies that have, unwisely, allowed the "I want this now and screw the consequences" crowd to control their actions, will either end up going under, or realizing there is a better model out there and start using it.
The "macro master" crowd is not in it for the long haul or the good of the game. They're in it for "I want this now and I don't want to wait 6 months to get it." What companies will eventually need to come to grips with is, that group is not going to keep paying them for 2 years. They will buy the game, master it in a few weeks, unsubscribe, and move on. Your examples of EQ and DAOC et al. worked because, at the time, there was nowhere else to go so people stuck around. They figured "I rather play an online game I am bored with than none at all." But that is no longer the case. We have many now: UO, EQ, DAOC are still there, but add AC2, AO, SWG, Horizons, FFXI, and about to come out are WOW, EQ2, COH, Marvel Heroes Online, Dungeons/Dragons Online, and Middle Earth Online. When people have enough games to choose from that they can switch once a month, and if they can macro master each game in a month or less, most of them will buy, play, master in the "free month", and drop their subscriptions. And since we all know that MMORPGs make most of their money from subscription renewals and not the initial $50 purchase, this is going to be a death knell to many of the games.
Again, it's not happening yet, although we are seeing shades of it. Already I know people who got bored with EQ and dropped it for AO, got bored with that and dropped it for SWG, got bored with that and dropped it for Horizons or FFXI.... This type of M.O. was simply not possible in 1998 because your only choices were, approximately, UO or EQ. And most people even have the time to play two games at the same time.
But except for a few nut-cases nobody is going to play 20 games at a time. When all the choices that are coming out there are fully realized, I predict that macro-mastering will lead to a very fickle, non-loyal, fluid, changing playerbase, that is going to make it VERY hard for these companies to stay in business.
The games that will succeed will be those that hold people's interest... ones that require you to actually accomplish something in order to get an "accomplishment" (badge, title, level, skill, etc).
Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so. There is a logical progression here, and the principles of running a good RPG are the same now as they were during 1st edition D+D: players have to earn something in order for it to feel valuable. This is an adage as old as the first DM guide. It has always been true. Game designers can violate it only at their own peril. And literally every time I have seen it violated, it has led to disaster.
C
Chessack wrote:
The player base has not yet seen what is going to happen when they are all doing this yet. It's been hinted above: the "multiplayer" environment turns into a solo game.
You're making my argument for me. The trend on macroing/AFKing is increasing. We have not seen anything close to its peak yet.
I believe firmly that AT its peak, many people are going to give up and throw in the towel and quit these games entirely, and the revenue from them will decline to the extent that they are not as financially viable as they are today. We're not there yet, so saying, "Well it's not like that now," is a moot point. It will get there. Not today, not this year, maybe not for 10 years, but it will get there, and when it does, the companies that have, unwisely, allowed the "I want this now and screw the consequences" crowd to control their actions, will either end up going under, or realizing there is a better model out there and start using it.
Actually I don't think the trend is increasing at all, as I said in previous posts this has been going on long before graphical games came about so your point that there is only a limited number of games is rather skewed to your own personal experiences. Back in the 90s there was a huge raging debate about afk macroing in the BBS community over the game "Majormud". This was a text based game where you hacked and slashed in the autocombat world of ansi based graphics/text. That game still survives today and has quite a loyal following. Enough so that those evil Candians that created the game still haven't made a significant price drop to make it affordable for more people to run servers 
Some boards completely disallowed it, while others completely embraced it. A friend and I ran a 24 line BBS that had this game and we allowed scripting. We went through all the debates with our users and some were as emphatic as this group about how it was destroying the game we all enjoyed. After several years of running, the scripters scripted, the nonscripters didn't and the revenues never dropped (until the internet hit big). Also, there will always be the next bigger and better thing reguardless of scripting and people who script and people who play will gravitate towards the newer technology so that point doesn't really hold a lot of weight.
"""The "macro master" crowd is not in it for the long haul or the good of the game. They're in it for "I want this now and I don't want to wait 6 months to get it." What companies will eventually need to come to grips with is, that group is not going to keep paying them for 2 years. They will buy the game, master it in a few weeks, unsubscribe, and move on."""
That is true as I said for the common player be it scripter or atk player....On the other hand you are also quite wrong. If you look at Ultima Online which still has well over a million customers playing has a long history of macroing players and many of them are still there today. That is pretty significant evidence that your theory is incorrect.
"""Your examples of EQ and DAOC et al. worked because, at the time, there was nowhere else to go so people stuck around. They figured "I rather play an online game I am bored with than none at all." But that is no longer the case. We have many now: UO, EQ, DAOC are still there, but add AC2, AO, SWG, Horizons, FFXI, and about to come out are WOW, EQ2, COH, Marvel Heroes Online, Dungeons/Dragons Online, and Middle Earth Online. """"
And as I pointed out with all these current choices UO still has well over a million customers and many people still hold accounts in several different games. Macroing is still not the common denominator here in reguards to failure. There has yet to be a failure of an MMO. The root cause is generally going to be new innovation and new technology, not scripting or macroing.
"""But except for a few nut-cases nobody is going to play 20 games at a time. When all the choices that are coming out there are fully realized, I predict that macro-mastering will lead to a very fickle, non-loyal, fluid, changing playerbase, that is going to make it VERY hard for these companies to stay in business."
Except by continuing to innovate and create new content and/or new gaming systems. That is true reguardless of macroing or not. It does not really prove your point. Also if you pay close attention to the gaming models currently out a huge trend is that people recycle the games they play in many instances. As game companies release more games and more expansions, they leave their current game for the latest greatest thing, then when the previous game manufacturer releases their new version the common player then returns to the other game to try out all the new things they provide. So while there is a natural limited player base, that player based tends to revolve in a ciruclar pattern around each company. Again this is independant of macroing.
"""The games that will succeed will be those that hold people's interest... ones that require you to actually accomplish something in order to get an "accomplishment" (badge, title, level, skill, etc)."""
Again, this whole argument has is not directly related. All the evidence leans to a natural progression of players circulating to the latest greatest thing which changes from company to company independent of their play style. The only thing that doesn't change is the arguments for and against various playstyles and forced roles.
I think what you will find is the BEST companies will see the anti-afker trend as an opportunity to create them a world to live in. DAOC and many other games are already picking up on the different playing styles and working WITH them rather than against them. PVP servers for the hardcore pvp gamers, Roleplay servers for the RP community. I eventually see a scripting and nonscript game (Which btw I forgot to mention but that was another thing we did with Majormud was to create two servers which made everyone happy).
Ewoksniper wrote:
And if you take us out of the equation who are you left to talk to as well? A large percentage of AFK macroers are working adults such as myself that want to provide a service for the player base but have to work, then come home and take care of kids and play at the keyboard for an hour or two a night. So if you take me out of the game because I can't macro, does that erally create a more social environment for you? Trust me, I understand that you want to interact with people and it can be frusterating when you can't find people, but that is also a downside of a 3000 player limit in a game where you have many planets all the size of most MMO games. I am curious as to where you come up with this 90% figure, when I am home playing I never have to much trouble finding lots of people to talk to. I have a feeling you are exaggerating the problem slightly.
First of all i am a working adult as well and if i have other things to do my computer is turned off. You say youare providing a service for the other players you say what service is that? To be part of a 50 person lag inducing macro spewing mob that serves little perpose other than to detract from the playing experience of another group of people? How is that a service.If you wonder where i get a figure like 90% take a look up in a cantina once in a while. Sony designed the entertainer profession to be social, if you look at the new lucasarts teaser page for star wars galaies youll see when you click on the cantina its described as a vibrant hub of entertainment. I dont know about you but i dont find it very vibrant as is. Another thing you say is you understand it can be frustrating when you cant find people to interact with. thats not a problem i can find a staggering amount of people who don't want to interact with me because they hate the profession and are so angry about even having to do it that even if they were there they wouldn't be any fun to interact with.
Dreamland wrote:
First of all i am a working adult as well and if i have other things to do my computer is turned off. You say youare providing a service for the other players you say what service is that? To be part of a 50 person lag inducing macro spewing mob that serves little perpose other than to detract from the playing experience of another group of people? How is that a service.If you wonder where i get a figure like 90% take a look up in a cantina once in a while. Sony designed the entertainer profession to be social, if you look at the new lucasarts teaser page for star wars galaies youll see when you click on the cantina its described as a vibrant hub of entertainment. I dont know about you but i dont find it very vibrant as is. Another thing you say is you understand it can be frustrating when you cant find people to interact with. thats not a problem i can find a staggering amount of people who don't want to interact with me because they hate the profession and are so angry about even having to do it that even if they were there they wouldn't be any fun to interact with.
50 person lag including macro speweing mob that serves little purpose? You apparently have not read half of the posts on this as I have mentioned over and over again that just like you I avoid the crowded packed rooms of Coronet and Theed and according to all my logs that I set up and keep from an entire week of work and afk macroing, not one other dancer ever showed up or at least said anything (including hi) the entire time. With that in mind I most certainly provided a service to those injured individuals that came in and thanked me profusely in my logs for even being there. The fact that you are bitter and angry is of no consequence to me nor do I care if everyone else hates the profession. When I am at work I am there for my patrons, and when I am home I am there for them in an even greater capacity.
Did any non dancers say hi? If not, then why are you there performing your "service"?
See, dancers aren't stupid. They know if someone is AFK running a macro, there is no point to saying hi. They won't respond. I know if I go somewhere and there is someone running a macro there, I just leave. I don't dance to compete with healing NPCs, and having to try just ruins it for me. Since there is nothing I can do about it - they can't be reasoned with, or asked to go somewhere else, and I'm sure if I sent a mail I would get a response about how they were serving the community. So there is no point for me to stay there. I never bother going to remote outposts to perform anymore. Every time I have been to one lately, there has been someone AFK running a macro. So what is left for the people who play entertainers to do?
Why yes quite frankly, I have several instances where people said hello and had general conversations. Some also thanked me for being here and I even have several emails. Is that as satisfactory as being in a nice group where I can talk to people? Considering I was just at work and my macroing made them happy, then yes it sure was. When I get home, I go to another cantina and work the crowd and talk to the other dancers just like you do. I really don't want to continue to argue complete semantics.
Tiaga wrote:
"This does nothing to add needed content to the entertainer professions. All it does is take the 19 other people out of an entertainers group giving dancers a one month grind to master instead of a three day."
Did any non dancers say hi? If not, then why are you there performing your "service"?
See, dancers aren't stupid. They know if someone is AFK running a macro, there is no point to saying hi. They won't respond. I know if I go somewhere and there is someone running a macro there, I just leave. I don't dance to compete with healing NPCs, and having to try just ruins it for me. Since there is nothing I can do about it - they can't be reasoned with, or asked to go somewhere else, and I'm sure if I sent a mail I would get a response about how they were serving the community. So there is no point for me to stay there. I never bother going to remote outposts to perform anymore. Every time I have been to one lately, there has been someone AFK running a macro. So what is left for the people who play entertainers to do?
I believe that was my point, that none of the other dancers are there to say anything. Its not patrons that are the problem its the dancing community atmosphere that is gone. If you get something ffrom dancing alone on endor or some other planet afk all day and then socialising with the odd person that comes in great. That is not what's missing and that is not what made dancing fun. What made it fun was a group of 20 live entertainers to talk to all day long. Now your going to say well go to player events etc etc etc, its not the same, the spontaneous social atmosphere is what im talking about. Maybe you never saw it the way it used to be so ill give you the benefit of the doubt there but being the afk hero on a deserted planet is no comparison whatsoever.
Ewoksniper wrote:
50 person lag including macro speweing mob that serves little purpose? You apparently have not read half of the posts on this as I have mentioned over and over again that just like you I avoid the crowded packed rooms of Coronet and Theed and according to all my logs that I set up and keep from an entire week of work and afk macroing, not one other dancer ever showed up or at least said anything (including hi) the entire time. With that in mind I most certainly provided a service to those injured individuals that came in and thanked me profusely in my logs for even being there. The fact that you are bitter and angry is of no consequence to me nor do I care if everyone else hates the profession. When I am at work I am there for my patrons, and when I am home I am there for them in an even greater capacity.