Dancer Archive
Thread: Grouping for XP Is It Really Necessary?
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Schardour
Sat Mar 05, 2005 10:57 am
#3
CasualMaker wrote:
No. It just helps a lot.
Haha! Not at all what I meant, I'm sorry. 
Is this a game mechanic that we truly need? In my opinion, it forces entertainers into one or two locations and leaves many other venues barren of most low and mid-level entertainment. It also promotes afk play in high-traffic areas, and brings the spam associated with afk play into the more heavily-populated entertainment centers.
Any other thoughts on the subject?
DarkY0da
Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:19 am
#4
Well I'm really hoping this game is moving AWAY from solo game thinking. I think currently Entertainers more or less have how the combat game should be set up. You can do it solo. But it's much better and more fun to do it grouped.
Else-Whira
Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:32 am
#5
Yes. The reason why I say yes? Entertainer is a profession designed and implemented to encourage those of us who enjoy gathering in a place in a MMORPG to chat to be constructive at the same time that we are chatting. Instead of just sitting around a bank or teleport portal or some other important game area to socialize we have been given an aspect of the game to run WHILE we chit chat. This important design concept of entertainer has slowly been eroded as the focus has shifted from the social aspect to the game mechanic benefit of entertainer.
Positive social groupings like grouping for experience and grouping to create a better performance(bandflos) are being replaced by grouping to get as many buffs as possible distributed to hyper impatient combatants.
I would actually like to see a couple of changes to entertainer grouping to encourage us to be ATK and in groups for both healing and experience gain. I don't have any specific proposals, but I'd love for THAT to be the focal point of developer design direction for us.
Positive social groupings like grouping for experience and grouping to create a better performance(bandflos) are being replaced by grouping to get as many buffs as possible distributed to hyper impatient combatants.
I would actually like to see a couple of changes to entertainer grouping to encourage us to be ATK and in groups for both healing and experience gain. I don't have any specific proposals, but I'd love for THAT to be the focal point of developer design direction for us.
Schardour
Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:41 am
#6
Valid points, Oh-Orb and Else. But do you not believe that the grouping would still take place (even among low-level entertainers, not just masters attempting to put on a show) if grouping was not required? What if the desire to form groups was driven by something other than the use of game mechanics to race to Master, such as more tools like Bandflourishing?
Message Edited by Schardour on 03-05-2005 01:45 PM
Else-Whira
Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:51 am
#7
Schardour wrote:Valid points, Oh-Orb and Else. But do you not believe that the grouping would still take place (even among low-level entertainers, not just masters attempting to put on a show) if grouping was not required? What if the desire to form groups was driven by something other than the use of game mechanics to race to Master, such as more tools like Bandflourishing?Message Edited by Schardour on 03-05-2005 01:45 PM
Did you play during beta at all? If you did you would remember a completely different cantina experience than we have ever had during launch. In beta the way people AFKed skill gain was to join a large group that was doing bandflos. Every cantina was dominated by huge groups of dancers standing in chorus lines or a little musician's area and a floor full of dancers that were all playing together. AFK or not. To eliminate AFK skill gain they took away the experience from bandflos. A TERRIBLE way to curb AFK skill gain as it lead to an even worse form. The all for me, screw you! method of AFK skill gain/play. Instead of large synchronized groups dominated by ATK composers and choreographers we have 20 solo acts trying to out do each other for the attention and tips of the people walking through the door ATK or not.
Tiaga
Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:22 pm
#8
I would like to see something added that rewarded grouping and working together. I don't just mean bandflos, but like how combat players can work together to take down a krayt, for example.
Schardour
Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:23 pm
#9
Tiaga wrote:
I would like to see something added that rewarded grouping and working together.
That would be ideal, and what I mean by "tools like bandflos."
Panthu
Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:32 pm
#10
No, but we do need XP for bandflos... and possibly an over all increase in XP gain. We definitely need XP based on +Dance Knowledge.
You should spend enough time practicing each Dance to really know it... but honestly, that doesn't take that long. It goes even faster if you are working on mixing. The only problem with that is, you take a heavy XP hit for mixing, because you aren't getting XP for the /changedance mixed flos.
So, either we need to also get XP for /changedance... or, we need a real game mechanic that achieves the same results as mixing. Because mixing is really just a player work around, it would be even better if we could just call any flo we know from any base dance (or even w/o doing a base dance) and had the ability to select out parts of a flo to use and string to another.
I don't know that we can ever be given editing tools that powerful though, it might cause an insane server load, but doing the above plus breaking down our current flos into shorter anims or just adding a few short running turns, kicks, jumps, leaps, simple steps forward/back/left/right, and pivots would also work.
*wonders if Til is campaigning for wandering EU Devs*
Message Edited by Panthu on 03-05-2005 02:32 PM
Sunjammer
Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:53 pm
#11
I've often wondered if getting rid of the group bonus would encourage entertainers to spread out and be available in more places. For me, bandflourishes are reason enough to not play completely solo. I've spent most of my career dancing alone, or with only one or two others, in otherwise empty places scattered across the galaxy.
Barring having a little more company--say, 3-5 each of dancers and musicians--I think that's the way it should be. I like the interdependence of this game. In Theed I feel completely redundant; if I wasn't there people would still get their BF and mind healing. But at someplace that would otherwise be empty, my being there makes a difference. And with Bria's Ent channel, I don't even have to miss out on socializing with other entertainers.
Of course, JTL and reduced shuttle times have made travelling to the grind capitals a lot less of a hassle.
Umi
Barring having a little more company--say, 3-5 each of dancers and musicians--I think that's the way it should be. I like the interdependence of this game. In Theed I feel completely redundant; if I wasn't there people would still get their BF and mind healing. But at someplace that would otherwise be empty, my being there makes a difference. And with Bria's Ent channel, I don't even have to miss out on socializing with other entertainers.
Of course, JTL and reduced shuttle times have made travelling to the grind capitals a lot less of a hassle.
Umi
Sunjammer
Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:55 pm
#12
Panthu wrote:
I don't know that we can ever be given editing tools that powerful though, it might cause an insane server load, but doing the above plus breaking down our current flos into shorter anims or just adding a few short running turns, kicks, jumps, leaps, simple steps forward/back/left/right, and pivots would also work.
That would sure be nice...
Umi
Xyrdre
Sat Mar 05, 2005 5:07 pm
#13
My thoughts:
XP bonuses for groups are, I believe, intended as incentives for choosinggroupingover solo play. However, I also see that the entertainer professions really have their grouping incentives built right in - coordinated dances in groups look great, and bands of musicians on varied instruments sounds better than a lone slitherhorn. Not to mention that I think the kind of player that's attracted to these professions is one that's more likely to be interested in interacting with others. Not all entertainer players are, but a significant and perhaps evenoverwhelming majority, in my experience. I don't think that entertainers need such incentives to group up.
So, what if we just got a better baseline amount of XP, and let the grouping fall where it naturally will?
As I understood it, the idea of bandflourishes granting XP only to the initiator of the flo was an early attempt to dissuade unattendedness. Well, hindsight being 20/20,that didn't work, and clearly other measures are needed to prevent unattendedness. What we're left with in the wake is an effective penalty on XP gains for doing coordinated shows while leveling, and that strikes me as being contrary to the spirit of the entertainer professions.
I think that the drastic increase in XP for being in the "big group" has likely created the grind zones. Hologrinders wanted the biggest XP possible to get through the professions, and so they clumped up in Coronet and/or Theed, went AFK, and checked back in later to see when they could move on. 24/7 hologrinding in those grind capitols became a reliable place for combat players to know there would be mechanics to remove their BF, any time, day or night.Was this the beginnings of the combat player expectations that there must be entertainers for their wants andneeds, on their schedules? I think it may likely have been.
I think that grouping should ideallybe about fun, not purelyabout XP.I think thatthe ideal combat group is one that sets off to take on a challenge greater than they could individually handle rather than go their seperate ways as a 'solo group'. I guess in ways I see the entertainer"big group", whose purpose is solely for maximizing XP gain,where bandflos/coordinated showsare frowned upon, is really just the equivalent of combat solo groups. An unintended byproduct of the system, worked for maximum gains, but going against the spirit of how it's supposed to be.
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