Dancer Archive
Thread: A solution to Long-term AFK Macro Entertaining
Okay, first I need to re-iterate the case against Long-term AFK Macro Entertaining (LAME for short... /chuckle /snort)
Right now, a relatively full cantinawill typically consist of anywhere between 25% and 75% of LAMErs. This phenomenon is detrimental to the game in several ways:
- It reduces the immersion factor for all people present when half the entertainers in the place are unresponsive.
- It hurts entertainers who are working hard to roleplay their characters by
- Sucking up tips (though many people don't tip AFK dancers, some do).
- Creating the impression that Entertainers are lazy, good for nothing losers who all macro their way to a Master title. This resentment toward Entertainers expresses itself in the form of reduced tips and griefing.
- Encourages power-gamers to take up the profession, who generally don't put forth the effort to wear good clothing (or, to the opposite extreme, to ONLY wear the most revealing costume possible), and who don'tsocialize and "work a crowd". This makes cantinas look like a place forspice-blastedbums, grinding away in their skivvies. This makes the cantina experience less pleasant for all.
- It complicates many of the proposed solutions to some of the other problems surrounding the profession, such as money-making for entertainers. (Like the cover-charge idea. You wouldn't want LAMErs getting a cut, right?)
- The frustrations surrounding LAMErs (in addition to the other frustrations of the profession) causes many legitimate dancers to give up the profession, further reducing the number of legit dancers vs. the number of LAMErs... so the problem will only get worse.
With that said, there are legitimate reasons for Entertainers to do at least SOME macroing:
- The creation of "sets" of flourish combos, both for entertainment purposes, or simply so that Entertainers can interact with a crowd without having to always remember to /flourish.
- Even to allow brief AFK moments for players of Entertainer characters... to use the bathroom or get a drink, or even to microwave their lunch. Most people aren't concerned with a person being AFK for up to 5 minutes. Even if it's 5 minutes every half-hour, most people don't mind. (I sometimes babysit while playing the game, and it's nice to be able to leave my dancer running, while I check on the kid(s)).
Therefore, we need to look at a good way to reduce Long-term AFK Macro Entertaining, without damaging the legitimate uses of the macro interface.
Let me propose the following solution:
- Remove the "DANCENAME" option from the "/startdance DANCENAME" command, and the "SONGNAME" option from the"/startmusic SONGNAME" command. Leave it just at "/startdance" and "/startmusic". This brings up the dance/song selection window. Like crafting and Image Designing, this requires a non-macroable mouse-click. This means that if theentertainer stops for any reason, including tiring out, that they will need a mouseclick to resume. This also means eliminating the default dance/song options from the Actions menu, and just replacing it with a "StartDance" and "StartMusic" icon.This onechange alone will cut LAMEing down significantly.
- This has a workaround for the LAMErs, however, in that you can dance forever if you are getting heals... and medics are all too willing to heal LAMErs, because it's a great way to get xp. So I also propose putting a time limit on entertaining. After19 minutes, pop up a window that says, "It's almost time for a break. Do you want to take a break?Yes/No. You have XX seconds to decide."Clicking "No"will keep you going without interruption. Clicking "Yes" or letting the 60 second timer run out will cause you to stop entertaining.This puts a limit on LAMEing of 20 minutes. Clicking "Yes" 3 times per hour isn't such a nuissance to other performers, I would hope.
With this solution, macroing of flourishes is left alone, so there's no "nerfing" of the ability to use them for the best effect and/or xp gain.
I understand if item #2 is more programming than it's worth just to eliminate a workaround. But item #1 at least is very easy to program... simply remove the ability of two commands to take command-line arguments, forcing a window and mouse-click.
In conclusion, let's add Performing to the list of non-AFK macroingskills (in additon to Crafting, Image Designing, and recently, Surveying).
Lorilei Celestri
Apprentice Dancer
Chilastra
Sorry for the doublepost, I don't know why it did that.
Please do NOT respond to this thread.... respond on the other thread.
ARGGG! It only looks like a double post to me because I chose the option "keep this message at the top of the board list".
Does anyone else see this thread twice?
Weird!
Lorilei
It would be so boring if we had not the macros !
You wrote :
"Even to allow brief AFK moments for players of Entertainer characters... "
Lol.
Lot of people are playing entertainment because theydon't likefight and grinding, you just propose grinding dance and music ! Do you know how often IRL a pro dancer or musician is afk in his(her) head during working ? My father was the first violoncello of France during 40 years at Paris Opera (1st Cello), he told me so often he was thinking about next holidays while playing Carmen..
My mother in National France Orchestra and all my familly included myself as a jazz piano player, we often are afk while playing.Obviously not if this is something important : difficult, swinging and addictive, etc..
Perhaps some special flourishes with more xp and not macroables would be great.
Not at the top of devs list though.
At top should be tips ! A dwarf Nunna kills me, I need tips but few are given.This is a real problem for us and the missions are bugged (entertainers).
Surveying is always macroable, by not answering the window you only slow a little your action and once a window.
If you supress macro-dancing-playing, I guess lot of people will quit.
Come to a cantina with novice entertainment and stay 8 hours in front of your screen, you will be sick very soon.The ground music is repetitive, you can't act as if you really were a dancer irl.
You think about the immersive problem of people watching and listening, please think first to those dancing and playing and their reality.
Thanks.
How about everyone just minds their own business on the whole issue of AFK?
There have been sooo many posts on this subject it's getting a little old.
An AFK dancer doesn't hurt anyone...and like I tell my kids on a daily basis..."you take care of yourself and don't worry about the little things other people are doing or not doing".
I mean who really has time to sit at this message board and type up a list of reasons why we should ban AFK players?.....just face it, it's none of your **edit** business, so shut up about it!
Flame away 
Starsknight: It would be so boring if we had not the macros !
Lorilei: No one is suggesting taking away macros. Only the ability to leave your entertainer on auto-pilot for hours at a time.
Starsknight: Lot of people are playing entertainment because theydon't likefight and grinding, you just propose grinding dance and music !
Lorilei: No, I'm not proposing grinding dance and music.I'm proposing enjoying dance and music for what it is... a chance to role-play a lot in a non-combat profession. If getting xp to get the next dance or song is the whole reason you're dancing or playing, then maybe this profession isn't for you. If getting tips is what you're after, then ignore the xp and role-play... you'll get your tips.
Starsknight: Do you know how often IRL a pro dancer or musician is afk in his(her) head during working ? My father was the first violoncello of France during 40 years at Paris Opera (1st Cello), he told me so often he was thinking about next holidays while playing Carmen..
Lorilei: I was a flutist in High School, and a vocal music major in college. I know what you mean. I do not dispute the realism of being "zoned out" while performing.However, if someone comes and snaps their fingers in front of your face, you'll de-zone very quickly. Like my post said, most other performers have no problems with someone in their group going AFK for a few minutes.
Starsknight: At top should be tips ! A dwarf Nunna kills me, I need tips but few are given.This is a real problem for us and the missions are bugged (entertainers).
Lorilei: Many of the suggestions to the devs on how to improve tips involves reducing the AFK macroing going on. And tips would go up if you just targeted LAMEing. Here is a post where someone collected the comments of people about why they don't tip: http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=entertainer&message.id=3199
Starsknight: If you supress macro-dancing-playing, I guess lot of people will quit.
Lorilei: I'm not trying to supress it... only make it harder to do for hours and hours away from keyboard. But if people want to quit when that happens, it'll only be the ones who shouldn't be in this profession in the first place.
Starsknight: Come to a cantina with novice entertainment and stay 8 hours in front of your screen, you will be sick very soon.The ground music is repetitive, you can't act as if you really were a dancer irl.
Lorilei: If the music is repetitive, it's probably because the musicans are AFK macroing. LOL! I can understand that 8 hours of dancing Footloose is boring to you.So I suggest going back and doing some Formal, or Rhythmic2. Get in a line with some other dancers and bandflourish for a while. Ask the patrons about their hunting trips. Tell jokes. Share gossip. Take up Novice Medic and go heal some people at the medical center, if you need a change of pace. Go shopping for a new top. What? No money because of no tips? If you're role-playing your character, you'll get tips. If not, you can always do 2 delivery missions (takes about20 minutes, tops!) to get 1500 credits. That's enough for a nice new top. Better yet, find a factional mission terminal and do deliveries for the Empire or Alliance. Start gathering faction points for yourself (you don't have to actually join the faction right at that time) while you make the money.
Starsknight: You think about the immersive problem of people watching and listening, please think first to those dancing and playing and their reality.
Lorilei: What does AFK macroing get you, Starsknight? It gets you to the next dance faster.So you make it to Master Dancer in 2 weeks instead of 2 months.What's the point of that? More tips, because you can dance all sexy in with the Exotic dancing? Is that what's going to make it less boring for you? Just think... once you reach Master Dancer, you can dance Exotic for 8 hours with you in front of the computer.... and that will be less boring? Tips come to people who give their customers something of value above and beyond the basic game mechanics of mind healing.... give your customers a reason to stay AFTER their mind healing is complete, and you'll get the tips you seek.
One final note: If you're in this profession for the tips, you're in the wrong profession. Don't think about the money. Think about your customers, and the money will just happen... not as much as doing hunting missions as a Carbineer/Scout... but enough. And by the way... it's dancers and musicians who are at their keyboards, livening things up who make this aspect of the game less boring for the customers... and it's good customers (regardless of whether they tip) and good fellow performers who make the game less boring for performers. If you've ever been in a cantina witha group of 10-20 entertainers who are all actively involved in ENTERTAINING an audience, rather than grinding away... THAT is the most fun a dancer/musician can have in the game... and to hell with tips! Time really DOES fly when you're having fun!
Lorilei
give your customers a good show and a good song
if they want conversation let them get it from the group they are in.
you want to talk about immersion breaking?
goto a concert and try to get on stage to talk to the band while they are playing.
goto a strip joint and try to get on stage to talk to the stripper.
in both those cases you will be thrown out.
entertainers entertain by doing what they are supposed to do. dance,play music
talking with entertainers in this game is great, but by no means should it be mandatory or expected.
roleplaying entertainers are great, they are few and far between. but dont take it out on those people who are getting sick of listening to SW 1 because joe blow wants to play in the band to compliment his fighting skills
What makes any of you think you should be able to tell someone else how to play their character?
There is no reason an AFK dancer should keep anyone out of the cantina...if you want to go there so bad then you would.
I don't particularly care for the macros with preprogrammed proclamations in them...but it really doesn't have a thing to do with me. If it is embarassing to you that other dancers are AFK you need to get over it because the behavior of other dancer's has no reflection on you...either as a dancer or as the person behind the keyboard.
If you guys want to have something to complain about then why don't you just pick up on the old "asking for tips" thread? You are all so concerned with trying to get money from your "customers", that what would beembarassing to me...or at least a big etiquette no-no.
Maybe you should consider putting all this energy into something that really matters.
Get over it.....it's a game.
Wow Sarita, guess along with that mind your own business thing that you teach your kids on a daily basis too! (what? They dont listen so it needs to be repeated every day? hehe), you must do that "Well kids, its ok if you (insert some sort of lawbreaking activity), but so long as no one see you, its just fine and dandy to do, because what you do is no one elses business!" Right? Anyway, the post was well thought out and kinda cute with the LAMER thing
It is not true that LAMErs have no effect on me as a dancer. They have lots of effect on me. Here's why:
1. I am a roleplayer. I stay in character, and I enjoy interacting with other people who stay in character. I love playing my Dancer. I don't like it when all the chat around is OOC, and I am bored when there is no one to RP with. I selected Entertainment as a profession for my PC because it appeared to have (correctly so) the highest RP potential.
2. LAMErs do not RP. By definition they can't. They're not there. They can't react to you. So you can't RP with them at all.
3. LAMErs are everywhere, all over the place, in every cantina. They frequently outnumber the active musicians and dancers. Often the active people just shut up and hit function keys because for long periods there's just silence from everyone else.
4. Combatants, doctors, and artisans come into the cantina for healing and, perish the thought, possibly even roleplay. Due to #2 and #3 above, the cantina is silent. They might try to RP but in many cases they are ignored (or more correctly their poses are not seen because the dancers are not there looking at the screen to see them).
5. As a result, combatants, doctors, and artisans, who might have had some interest in RP, become conditioned to just walk in, say nothing, and heal.
2+3+4+5 = Cantinas become a silent, dead area with no potential for RP. This ruins #1, my reason for being a dancer in the first place. I go to the cantina to RP, but often I can't, because of the results of LAME behavior. The active entertainers hit master and leave (no RP). The RP-inclined players have RP squished out of them by lack of LAMEr response. And my whole means of obtaining enjoyment out of the game is squashed.
Tell me again, how is it that the LAMErs are having no effect on me?
C
First of all, I'm not gonna take a stand to the question itself. I use some long-term afk-macro'ing myself, but I am also present up to 14 hours (non-stop, more or less).
I'm merly gonna debate the statments, which I found wrong in some ways.
It reduces the immersion factor for all people present when half the entertainers in the place are unresponsive.
Why? So much better the chance for you to socialize with the patrons and get the tip.
It hurts entertainers who are working hard to roleplay their characters by Sucking up tips (though many people don't tip AFK dancers, some do).
Then you're not working very hard for it, are you? I'd estimate I get maybe 1k if I AFK for a long session. But that's on a lucky day. Maybe from my regulars, who knows.
Creating the impression that Entertainers are lazy, good for nothing losers who all macro their way to a Master title. This resentment toward Entertainers expresses itself in the form of reduced tips and griefing.
When I'm in need of an entertainer (when playing a fighter), I don't care if the entertainer is present or afk (would there only be one there). Possible I'd skip tip, but most likely I'd give some. At least this person was able to help me, one way or the other.
Encourages power-gamers to take up the profession, who generally don't put forth the effort to wear good clothing (or, to the opposite extreme, to ONLY wear the most revealing costume possible), and who don'tsocialize and "work a crowd". This makes cantinas look like a place forspice-blastedbums, grinding away in their skivvies. This makes the cantina experience less pleasant for all.
Yea, power-gamers. They usually don't want to do something adventurous. They want to spend time macro'ing a non-profitable profession in a dusky cantina. Sorry, but you're wrong here. power-gamers are people who spend a LOT of time present, playing. As for the clothing. The 2 most common dresses are fleshwraps and leotards. Doesn't matter if you're present or not. They look good dancing in, and they suck up tips. Why? Sex sells. Always has, always will. Live with it.
It complicates many of the proposed solutions to some of the other problems surrounding the profession, such as money-making for entertainers. (Like the cover-charge idea. You wouldn't want LAMErs getting a cut, right?)
Why not? If they are in your group, they provide you XP. Would it be bad to share with them?
The frustrations surrounding LAMErs (in addition to the other frustrations of the profession) causes many legitimate dancers to give up the profession, further reducing the number of legit dancers vs. the number of LAMErs... so the problem will only get worse.
What? Division by 0 error. Does not compute.
There's my 2 cp
The frustrations surrounding LAMErs (in addition to the other frustrations of the profession) causes many legitimate dancers to give up the profession, further reducing the number of legit dancers vs. the number of LAMErs... so the problem will only get worse.
What? Division by 0 error. Does not compute."
A friend's sister played a Musician. She was almost Master. Over the past two weeks she has travelled from Naboo to Corellia to Tatooine and the moons in-between looking for groups. She was becoming increasingly annoyed with AFK macroers - there was no 'fun' in being grouped with a playerless toon. As of today, she surrendered all her Musicaian/Entertainer skills and has opted to go for Scout.
Seems Lorelei's statement does compute afterall.......