Dancer Archive
Thread: Results: State of the Dancer Profession
It all started in Mos Eisley. My scout needed to dump some Battle Fatigue, so I stopped by the cantina. What I saw horrified me: One Twi'lek Novice Musician playing her horn with a big AFK sign over her head. She was using the occasional lighting effect, but otherwise wasn't responsive. Next to her was a Rodian musician I've known for a while who is now trying to pursue dancing. He, also, had a huge AFK sign over his head. I loudly said, "Where the hell IS everybody?! This is utterly shameful!"
The third entertainer was a petite red-headed human in sports bustier and hot pants who kept calling me (a female scout) "baby" and "sweetie". Should I throw up now or wait til I'm outside? Maybe the dewbacks outside the door would notice my physical distress more readily than AFK entertainers. I /watched the one dancer who was really there, tipped her 300 cr and left. Hey, at least she was "live", even if her version of 'friendly' left me feeling sticky sweet.
My next stop was Coronet, the site of so much of the fun I had while working my way up to Master. It was always full of entertainers, with at most, 1 or 2 out of 20 AFK. Not last night. The group was perhaps 6 to 8 players. I tried sending /tells to all of them. I got answers from 3. Meanwhile, there was so much /licking and /kissing on the lips with male patrons, if I hadn't already been sick in Mos Eisley it would have happened here. Only this time there wasn't a dewback outside to turn his nose up at me.
On to Kor Vella. Empty. Over to Tyrena. One dude in bone armor doing Basic all by himself.
Off to Theed -- sort of the Entertainers' Union Hall on Chilastra. I never saw anything less than a full group of people there in the "old" days (2 or 3 weeks ago), clowning around and having the best time together. Any patron who walked in could be assured he/she would be greeted warmly and chatted up without all the slurpy licking I'm seeing now. Last night? There may have been a dozen or so players, and I wasn't even noticed as I stood at the top of the stairs surveying the group. Not so much as a "hi".
I was in search of an ID'er who could change my hairstyle. There used to be at least 2 or 3 Masters in Theed at all times, but last night the best I could do was a Novice, and was invited to their group while she changed my hair. That's when I was privy to their discussion, which wasn't anything like the lively banter I recalled from my experience ... "X is group leader. Oh crap, she's AFK"... "Who wants to be leader?" ... "I gotta go, hugs and licks all" ... during which time a couple of the dancers were, once again, drooling all over the two poor bastards who had only come by for healing. No open discussion of music. No dreaming of performance tours or new routines. No roleplaying whatsoever, just grinding.
Next stop Keren. Oops, completely empty. Spent some time fishing and surveying, thinking this whole thing over. Do I still want to be part of a profession that has fallen on such abysmal times? What happened to the articulate, funny, enthusiastic people I used to group with? Where was the unison dancing, the determined practice for future public performances? I felt like I'd just peeked into the door on an Escher painting, all chaos where up-down becomes down-up, but with a big Rolling Stones tongue sticker glued over it.
This is the state of the profession. Those of us who took the profession seriously and truly wanted to do something with it have all moved on. Perhaps a few of the dancers I saw last night had the same ideas, I don't know - it was hard to tell when they weren't even at their keyboard. Perhaps my former comrades are still around pursuing other interests, but what could bring them out into public? What could we possibly do to right the badly-listing ship of public entertainment?
I'm asking. I want so badly to see this as a challenge and opportunity rather than a pessimistic surrender. Dancers aren't even second class citizens today - even musicians get more notice and respect than we do. We've brought some of that upon ourselves by abandoning the public cantinas to the underwear-twits, but it would also be true to say that SOE hasn't helped us. Under the original game design, we're nothing but eye candy. We can be so much more than that - one, if we become more organized and aggressive in promoting ourselves; and two, if SOE decides that Dancers can fulfill a useful role in the SWG universe beyond /licking customers and making semi-retired Dancers throw up.
School holidays are over?
New breed of players?
Wisened up to macros so why toil all day?
Apathy because of lack of interaction between entertainer and audience (AFK induced in part)?
Those that left are a different kind of player to those who stayed?
Who knows why the change. I have to say your story is a bit of a role reversal. I always thought it was the cantina visitors who made lewd comments to the dancers rather than the other way around. Regarding the eye candy, by and large the SW universe dancers tended to be scantily clad. I'm not justifying such clothes in SWG just pointing out the reference source. There is no way that dancers need to keep with the reference and it does get a little repetitive. So... dancers rebel! Strike out and diversify!
Complete lack of adequte "pay" by those that watch. If I want to dance for myself, I'll dance for myself in my house or some other place. If I dance in a public cantina, I am dancing for the patrons. I'm there because the patrons respect me.
If the patrons show no love, no respect. I'll leave. And that's what I did... I left.
I run a guild that does paid entertaining gigs. We charge 5k per hour per entertainer for the service. A guy the other night sends me a tell complaining about the price. He says 'Your price is too high. I know for a fact that entertainers don't make near that much in public cantinas.' I respond 'I know for a fact that is why I only rarely dance in a public cantina anymore.'
I'm rambling... but in short: The lack of respect ($$$) from our customers has drove out those that where at the keyboard. The ones that are left are those that are not at the keyboard... and thus don't care.
It takes 15 minutes of work to pop out 5k from destroy missions with just basic pistoleer. With master dancer.. that kind of money takes hours. If I'm after money, I'll do missions. If I'm after dancing, I'll dance for myself or for my friends.
Rambling again
I'd understand dancers travelling to a second level planet where hunting parties need local healing at a regular rate. That's an entertainer actively plying their trade to make money. A professional.
Public dancers...are they professional? What professional dances for public?
Now, the concept of a dancing troupe is different and new to me in SWG. I suppose you will have matching clothes, set shows, set designs etc. Now that could work. And you get paid for your entertaining service.
So the crux is:
1. Getting paid for what you do - not a frequent occurence in public cantinas. Therefore you're not going to show up their often or only AFK. Which is a shame. Solution: playing in a public cantina should offer payment from the cantina owner (an NPC). Or change the way the entertainer missions work. /shrug
2. Getting organised. As above, get a band/dancing group formed and sell your reputation. Put on shows for guild parties (a lot of guilds probably do not have enough entertainers to do this professionaly). Put on a performance! Advertise in advance. Get tickets sold at the door of the private place. /shrug. heh
3. Improve the dancing / entertainer class. Now we need more in there don't we? Artists? zip. More instruments. More tunes and dances. Buffs. /shrug
I'm not sure if any of these will improve player interaction in a public cantina though. I try to interact but it's often difficult. ho hum... but I like the private dancers/musicians idea. Got to go see me one of those.
I firmly believe at this point that no amount of discussion or argument, no amount of education, nothing less than a fundamental change to the entertainer professions can save us.
There have been plenty of good ideas bantered around, we can only hope the devs implement one or two.
In the meantime, expect it to only become worse. Most people who play games like this are by nature selfish and will never tip, no matter what we say or do.
I wish I didn't sound so pessimistic. I still love dancing and intend to continue, but I no longer dance for the patrons, I dance for me.
- J
AramB wrote:
Great post.
School holidays are over?
New breed of players?
Wisened up to macros so why toil all day?
Apathy because of lack of interaction between entertainer and audience (AFK induced in part)?
Perhaps all of the above? I hadn't considered the start of school, but maybe that's one thing. It could also be that our reputation for AFK macroing and cyber-sex has become self-perpetuating -- if that's the first thing new players see, then that's how they think the class is to be played. I think this weekend I may do another tour of cantinas and offer to pay 1,000 credits to any performer who is NOT afk. Let'em talk about it after the AFKers come back to their keyboards
I have to say your story is a bit of a role reversal. I always thought it was the cantina visitors who made lewd comments to the dancers rather than the other way around.
Oh, no. I've said it before - I've had more problems with the behavior of other dancers than I've ever had with patrons. I can handle the lewdy rudies who walk in, they're no different than the cyber-trolls I met on IRC for years. But when the dancer next to me is soliciting out loud for sexual favors-for-pay, then it's time for me to either /duel her or leave.
Regarding the eye candy, by and large the SW universe dancers tended to be scantily clad. I'm not justifying such clothes in SWG just pointing out the reference source. There is no way that dancers need to keep with the reference and it does get a little repetitive. So... dancers rebel! Strike out and diversify!
I have a wide selection of formal gowns and flight suits that I wear when I perform -- and I change outfits at least 3 or 4 times a night when I'm on a gig. I like having something other than my 6 flesh wraps and 3 metal bikinis to provide some visual variety.
If I'm running missions, I'm just as likely to be dressed in my red Traders flightsuit and red Ubese boots as anything, and it still works just fine. Ironically, I tend to stand out more in a crowd of flesh wrapped dancers
picklesSW wrote:
Sinda, you're been around, you are wise, you know the score, and you know exactly why the profession is dying and being turned into what you witnessed.
I firmly believe at this point that no amount of discussion or argument, no amount of education, nothing less than a fundamental change to the entertainer professions can save us.
Well said, Pickles (especially the part about me being wise
). I can't help but be saddened though - because I had some pretty lofty goals when I started out and really felt that SOE had hit upon the perfect RP balance to powergaming. What I think I saw last night was the ironic powergaming-creep in a profession that is fundamentally for roleplaying/socialization. I'd say I hoped these people would get bored and do something else (and that's happened) but there are always more to take their place.
There have been plenty of good ideas bantered around, we can only hope the devs implement one or two.
In the meantime, expect it to only become worse. Most people who play games like this are by nature selfish and will never tip, no matter what we say or do.
I wish I didn't sound so pessimistic. I still love dancing and intend to continue, but I no longer dance for the patrons, I dance for me.
- J
It's the only reason I've clung to my Master Dancer skill so far. I could use it for so much else right now, as I've been pursuing TK and CH, with dabbles in scouting and medic. Crunch time will arrive some day, and at that point I'll either find a reason to keep dancing or I'll vacate ALL of my dancing skill in favor of Creature Handler. That will be a very, very sad day for me, and while some of it does depend on me and the choices I make, much of it also depends on where SOE decides to take the Dancer.
I've noticed a lot of the same things as I've been travelling around working on my CH skills. Cantinas like Coronet are half empty. No one greets people as they walk in the door anymore. No one talks or interacts with the customers like they used to. More than half the entertainers I run across are AFK, the rest might as well be as they aren't communicating. It really is sad.
My master musician partner and I have been tinkering with pure combat characters on another server lately, and we're hard pressed not to take out novice entertainer and show thoseentertainers in the cantina we frequent how to do it right! Only one of them bothers to actually greet people, and then that's pretty much the end of her conversation. Then there's the group of AFK regulars grinding away...
Really, very sad.
Sinda, your experience is felt by at least one other person, buton Eclipse: me. The harrassment (unintentional probably, but there nonetheless--licking, hugging, kissing, jealousy, lust, and pestering) from the femaleentertainers gets too much at times. Makes me want to just leave and go do fencing or something. The AFKMers have the same effect. I will not try to compete withpeople who aren'teven playing--I'd rather just leave.
I think you're right that the problem is self-perpetuating. It's the AFKMers and lickers that are causing the other entertainers to give it up.
However, I will say that I visited Coronet a few nights ago. During beta and for weeks afterward, Coronet on was AFK macroville with group sizes constantly over 15. But the past few nights there have been very pleasant. The entertainers were all at their computers and actively talking and the group was still large. Basically, the opposite that has happened to my home town.
I think you'll still find the group of active entertainers, but it may take some searching.
Kettemoor state of dancing:
I don't know so much the public cantina's any more I dont even feel comfortable in them where I used to be every day the first month. I hear some of the same complaints but I do know there is a undercurrent of people entertaining and an obvious need for roleplayed entertainers doing real gigs for money.
A week calendar: Sat and Sunday afternoon private cantina opens roleplayed, during the week at least one maybe more parties, gigs, openings, housewarming etc, which always bring in more requests for the same. We can't do it all I just posted for other entertainers doing professional quality entertainment so I can throw the work at them when we can't cover it.
I know at least two people who started dancing schools, I know artisans with shopping malls wanting attached cafes and cantinas with dancers in them. I know a few places still often have good groups like on Talus or Moenia or Theed though public cantina's are dicey. More player cities come up with gentelmens clubs to family establishments.
And I don't see that much complaint on the server about people not being able to heal.
I suggest the state of the dancing profession is in flux and will be in flux as economies change, people change, schedules change and expectations change and we still as much of an opportunity to affect that as we did before, whether or not a public cantina is involved.
But the AFKers brought this about in large measure. Several now-Master-Dancers left after finishing the grind because they couldn't stand the AFKers. I left because I blundered accidentally into Keren cantina one night and found that while the group is small there, most people roleplay (imagine that!) and hardly anyone AFK Macros.
Keren cantina is still small and not very active. But I actually like it that way. Makes it a bit harder to get healing XPs, but I'll take slow progress in an intimate setting where there is more social interaction over a "hopping" AFK-fest any time.
I do think, however, that the start of school has an impact on this. A friend of mine is a tailor + dancer and dances in Keren normally. She's not been there much for the last 3 nights (in the cantina). I've seen her online a few times, but not in the city. She's got a house outside of town... She sent me a /tell last night saying that she just started going back to college (after several years out of school) on Tuesday, and she has to get up early now, and can't be online as much, and when she IS online she has so many clothing orders to fill that she just won't be able to dance much during the week any more.
I think this is happening a lot. Many people I know are either HS or college students. In most areas, school has just started. For HS kids I am sure parents everywhere are telling them, "Get accustomed to your schedule first before you get on that (bleep) computer." Or perhaps, "No computer games on a school night."
You were on last night. Last night was a Thursday. That's a school night, and beyond that, a school night during the very first week of school, when people are still excited about the new year, kids are still fresh, and nobody is sure yet how much time they will have to mess around with computer games relative to school work (I'm glad I am past that stage, heheh).
This is not to say that LAMErs haven't ruined the experience enough that good dancers have quit -- they have, I know it. This is not to say that disrespectful players haven't made the good players want to leave the cantina -- they have, and I know it. This is not to say that lack of tips has forced entertainers to go out running missions of one sort or another -- it has, and I know it. But I think that at least some of the "deadness" you saw in all those cantinas last night was due to the end of summer vacation, and people suddenly having a lot less time they can be online.
I actually don't mind this all that much. When there are less dancers and musicians, do you know what the combat-wombats become when they see me dancing in the cantina? Grateful. Imagine that!
One problem with the entertainment field was that there were so many LAMErs and they were always there, so that entertainers became "a dime a dozen" to the combat-wombats and others. You can get BF healing wherever and whenever you want it because there is always a LAMEr there... But ah, if that's not true, suddenly the active dancers and musicians are at a premium, and the amount of abuse we have to take should (I hope) go down.
But this is a very dynamic process. Things in online games such as MUDs go in cycles, often. For example:
Step 1 (start) -- New game. Few people in cantinas. Entertainment is a "frontier" profession, with endless possibilities. People take up dancing. BIG tips since there are few of us.
Step 2 -- Masters appear, entertainment seen as a lucrative profession for grinding since Mastery is (relatively) quick. More people join the profession. Tips/player go down because there are more players.
Step 3 -- Powerlevellers grind away with LAME. True entertainers and masters from Step 2 get fed up and stop entertaining. Cantinas become crowded, but most performers are LAME. Tips dry up -- nobody pays a LAMEr. Respect dips -- Entertainers are LAME and a dime a dozen.
Step 4 -- LAMErs finish the grind. No investment in profession. Leave the cantina. Empty cantinas with no dancers result.
Step 5 -- Basically, we are back to step 1. It's not a new game, but cantinas are empty now, and entertainment is once again a "frontier" profession with lots of possibilities. It's now easy to make tips again because you're not in a group of 20 with 15 people LAME. Goto step 1.
Right now, we're around step 4 in the cycle. I imagine soon we will cycle back up to Step 1 and repeat the cycle. But we'll just have to wait and see.
Until then, as long as I have friends and people to RP with in Keren cantina, I don't really care too much about what happens anywhere else in the galaxy...
C
Good god Sinda. I don't know what your trying to do here. Are you trying to get everyone to hate us?
All I see now in the General discussion group is how much people now hate Entertainers. My god!
Ok.. so you don't like AFK... But christ! Your going to cause us to get nerfed but remember one thing... when they nerf us it will go way to drastic.
I don't like long term AFK'ers as well. Don't get me wrong.
If you hate this profession so much then please leave!!! Leave now! Sure we have problems. They will be fixed.
I think I am going to seek you out and take a screen shot of you as soon as you go AFK.
Don't be hatein