Dancer Archive
Thread: SO don't need /deny
So, ADaM was contracted to play a wedding and reception last night on Corelia, near (well, not TOO near, but still) Kor Vella.
I arrived early, and thought I'd make a stop in the local cantina while I waited for the rest of our troupe for the evening to arrive. When I arrived, there was not one single other entertainer in the entire place. Not one.
I'm close to getting master in music, and prefer dancing with musical accompaniment anyway, so I started to play. It took very little time for three or four customers to wander in - it's like they have a sixth sense when an entertainer is in town *grin*
In walks The One. The One had about 2/3 wounds to all of his stats, and sat down and began to listen. I generally attempt to /welcome or /greet folks as they walk in, because that seems to me something that it's realistic I might do even without knowing their name, and I did no differently with him. He sat down, and began to listen, so within a short time, he was much closer to being healed. Then it began.
"You receive a tip of 1c from The One"
"You receive a tip of 1c from The One"
"Are you a novice or something?" says he.
"Novice? Nay, I've nearly mastered musicianship, and have already mastered dancing"
"Then how come this is going so slow??"
/laughs
"Slow? You came in here five minutes ago, and are nearly completely healed from having vast mind wounds.. I'm sorry if that is too slow for you"
"Well, could you dance or something, so I can see if it's faster"
Okay, I'm thinking.. I'll play.
I begin to dance, and ..
"You have received a tip of 1c from The One"
/sigh
/stopdance
/sitdown
"Sir, find someone else to heal you, since I seem to be doing so at an unsatisfactory rate"
Within a few moments, the other two or three patrons who had not yet healed were coming to my defense, and attempting to explain to him how he was being an idiot. *I* tried to explain to him that spamming 1c tips is not only annoying, but insulting. And that complaining that 'it's not fast enough' when I was the sole entertainer in town at that time probably wasn't wise either - that perhaps he should be greatful I was there at all when he was so in need of healing.
"Please dance again, I'll tip a lot"
"You don't understand, Sir. Tips are provided for above average service, and are appreciated, but are not WHY I perform. Obviously, my services aren't good enough for you, so perhaps you'd do better to wait for another entertainer."
Another apology, a few more smirks and laughing at him from the other patrons, and I began to perform again, as others from my guild and a local arrived shortly thereafter. I'd made my point, gained the respect of some of the other patrons, and had a bit of fun - not to mention getting 8K in tips in about 40 minutes from everyone else.
/deny service would have cost me far more - the enjoyment of talking to the other patrons, and getting them involved in their own gameplay. And it cost THEM maybe three minutes of time, but considering all stayed well past the time they were healed to continue to talk and relax, that doesn't seem to matter so much in the grand scheme of things.
Yes, yes, I know. "We only want /deny for abusive players". Riiiight.. I'm sure that's just how it's gonna be used, too.
But you WERE being abused. You could have done everything you did AND denied him service. The fact that this guy was big enough to apologise is no assurance that others are equally able to change their mentality. After he apologised you could have easilyreinstated service. Meanwhile, others wouldn't have had to wait around for you to start dancing again.
Also, for all intents and purposes, you extorted support from the other patrons. They knew that no other performer was likely to come, so they had a vested interest in supporting you. /denyservice would have prevented there being any pressure on them to support your cause.
This idea that entertainers are so selfish and vindictive that they will abuse the /denyservice command is ludicrous, and not a little insulting. Do you see doctors abusing their ability to deny service? Of course not. Why are you of the opinion that dancers will suddenly turn to 'the dark side' simply because they would be able to pick and choose who they give their services to?
This idea that entertainers are so selfish and vindictive that they will abuse the /denyservice command is ludicrous, and not a little insulting. Do you see doctors abusing their ability to deny service? Of course not. Why are you of the opinion that dancers will suddenly turn to 'the dark side' simply because they would be able to pick and choose who they give their services to?
Maybe because so very many have spent the last two months whining that they can't make enough tips, and begging for /deny to force people into it? Do I think every entertainer will do that? Nope. But I think enough will to make us look bad, and further damagea profession that is already damaged by underwear dancers and AFKers everywhere.
And no, I would not have used /deny with what I did. I chose to be an entertainer because I LIKE interacting with people, and roleplaying. I don't need a /deny function to do that for me. Personally, I see NO RP way of explaining /deny, and aside from any of my other beliefs about it, I would not use it just for that reason.
"Yes, sir, I AM dancing 2m away from you, and yes, my healing IS a product of my dance. It just doesn't work for you because you (didn't tip enough\hurt my feelings\said the wrong thing\were blatantly abusive\enter nine mile list of reasoning here).
As for extorting something from the other patrons - all of them were sending private IC and OOC tells in support, so they didn't see it that way. Small towns are used to having a lack of entertainers, which is unfortunate, and one of the many reasons I frequent them. It is for that very reason that they were willing to give me support.
Believe me, this is not the first time I've sat down, and had entire groups sit down with me because of people in public cantinas. There were situations where other patrons vocally complained, and we solved it simply. A few of the entertainers went to a back room, and continued performing for those who had no interest in RPing with the situation at hand. The jerk will never go there - he's being a jerk in the first place to get attention, or as part of an RP, so he'll stay up front and continue to be an ass, or continue to RP, depending on his preference.
AdaraX wrote:
so very many have spent the last two months whining that they can't make enough tips, and begging for /deny to force people into it? Do I think every entertainer will do that? Nope. But I think enough will to make us look bad, and further damagea profession that is already damaged by underwear dancers and AFKers everywhere.
Yup, this is the problem. Even if my character is friendly and happy to dance publicly and never uses /deny, people who have had unpleasant experiences with the /deny tip extortionists will be left with an unpleasant taste in their mouth and it will be much harder for me to remain on good terms with them. That makes my job a LOT harder.
AdaraX wrote:And no, I would not have used /deny with what I did. I chose to be an entertainer because I LIKE interacting with people, and roleplaying. I don't need a /deny function to do that for me. Personally, I see NO RP way of explaining /deny, and aside from any of my other beliefs about it, I would not use it just for that reason.
I agree 100% with this as well. It's just not "IC" to /deny someone and keep dancing but have your powers somehow not heal them. Makes no sense.
I think /denying people to get tips is going to wind up with a lot of people shooting themeslevs squarely in the foot.
C
Beery wrote:
This idea that entertainers are so selfish and vindictive that they will abuse the /denyservice command is ludicrous, and not a little insulting. Do you see doctors abusing their ability to deny service? Of course not. Why are you of the opinion that dancers will suddenly turn to 'the dark side' simply because they would be able to pick and choose who they give their services to?
I'll tell you why: 90% of the "we don't get enough tips" threads use the idea of /deny as a way of forcing people to give money to the complainer.
<opinion>Your being either very foolish or very idealistic if you believe that this ability will only be used against abusive players.</opinion>
The only thing worse than /deny is the idea of targeted healing. Sorry, I'm with Adara all the way on this matter. I don't know where Ravenmist stands but I certainly hope that s/he is objective enough to tell the devs that the entertainment community is by no means unanimous on the need or desirability of a /deny command.
Lets get the medics input on this one, shall we?
SlickRiptide wrote:
The only thing worse than /deny is the idea of targeted healing.
Tiaga wrote:
Lets get the medics input on this one, shall we?
SlickRiptide wrote:
The only thing worse than /deny is the idea of targeted healing.
I may be dense, but I don't see what relevance that has. Medic is an entirely different healing model from entertainment. Frankly, if you want to see why I don't want targeted healing, you have only to walk into a med center when there's an entire party of soldiers sitting around while one medic tries to tend to their wounds. It seems to me that you're making my case for me.
Additionally, as I've mentioned before, targeted healling puts entertainers in the position of competing against each other for healing XP and tips. I'm in the cantina to dance and play my bandfill, not to play healing tag with the customers.
SlickRiptide wrote:
Tiaga wrote:
Lets get the medics input on this one, shall we?
SlickRiptide wrote:
The only thing worse than /deny is the idea of targeted healing.
I may be dense, but I don't see what relevance that has. Medic is an entirely different healing model from entertainment. Frankly, if you want to see why I don't want targeted healing, you have only to walk into a med center when there's an entire party of soldiers sitting around while one medic tries to tend to their wounds. It seems to me that you're making my case for me.
Additionally, as I've mentioned before, targeted healling puts entertainers in the position of competing against each other for healing XP and tips. I'm in the cantina to dance and play my bandfill, not to play healing tag with the customers.
To be honest, I agree with you to a point. However I was just pointing out the absurdity of this all. Doctors and entertainers are, at their heart, the same. People claim it isn't true but it is. We both heal two types of things that don't regenerate on their own normally. Doctors heal health and action wounds, dancers heal mind wounds and battle fatigue.
The difference lays in how it is done. The doctor sits there tending to each patient individually, while the entertainer has other things they do and can for the most part ignore the "patients". But if you ignore the mechanics, entertainers are just a different breed of medic.
So why is it that the targetted healing model works for medics so well, but at the first hint of an indication that entertainers will get a gimped targetted healing model, people claim we will use it for abuse? I'm in the cantina to dance and play my mandovial, not to try and deny service to every single person that comes in. If somebody REALLY wanted to, they could hide behind a wall and /listen or /watch without ever being seen, or having LOS. You would never know they were there. To heal, they don't need to be in the cantina, only the entertainer does. And you know what? I'm fine with that.. Cause if they are behind a wall being quiet... They aren't harassing the entertainers.
I sure wouldn't want to have to target/heal someone. I'd rather just let him /watch me and go about my roleplay (which may include him if he is a RPer, or may not if he isn't). I have enough trouble typing out roleplay, keeping my macros going, tracking tips, thanking tippers and action healers... why would I want the added trouble of not being able to heal people unless I click on them?
Thank you, no.
C
The difference lays in how it is done. The doctor sits there tending to each patient individually, while the entertainer has other things they do and can for the most part ignore the "patients". But if you ignore the mechanics, entertainers are just a different breed of medic.
Why would I want to ignore the mechanics? If I had wanted to be a doctor, and use stimpacks to heal wounds, and provide buffs, I would have.
I chose entertainment specifically for the social aspects, and because the idea of healing *through* my dance and music appealed to me.
Ignoring the mechanics is the exact reason that I will not *ever* support /deny, even if there were a way to prevent it from being used as extortion by entertainers.
Thats not my point.. I said I agree, entertainers should not be a target to heal profession...
What I'm getting at is people are getting so up in arms about /deny because now entertainers may be able to selectively heal, while doctors have been able to selectively heal all along. What my point is, is mechanics aside doctors and entertainers are just different sides of the same thing. So why are doctors special in being able to pick who they heal?
If you don't want to bother clicking.. Why would someone want to bother clicking everyone who enters the cantina just to deny service? I suspect it will just become too much of a pain for most people who try. Not only that, until they fix AFK entertainers, people will have a backup, they may just heal slower.
What my point is, is mechanics aside doctors and entertainers are just different sides of the same thing. So why are doctors special in being able to pick who they heal?
Because, simply put, they are doctors. Ever watched the animation for stimpacks? It's like they are taking out a little medicine applicator, and applying it directly to a patient. Kind of like doctors IRL giving you a shot.
We don't do that. We heal by dancing. Dancing is seen, and that causes healing. I can't stop them from seeing it, and I can't stop them from hearing me play.
Do you see the difference. I'ts not like the doctors are spellcaster type healers, using an AOE spell or something, where they might not have that choice. They are specifically placing a stimulant into your body. that *requires* them to do it one person at a time.
AdaraX wrote:
What my point is, is mechanics aside doctors and entertainers are just different sides of the same thing. So why are doctors special in being able to pick who they heal?
Because, simply put, they are doctors. Ever watched the animation for stimpacks? It's like they are taking out a little medicine applicator, and applying it directly to a patient. Kind of like doctors IRL giving you a shot.
We don't do that. We heal by dancing. Dancing is seen, and that causes healing. I can't stop them from seeing it, and I can't stop them from hearing me play.
Do you see the difference. I'ts not like the doctors are spellcaster type healers, using an AOE spell or something, where they might not have that choice. They are specifically placing a stimulant into your body. that *requires* them to do it one person at a time.
I'm not talking on that level. Get above game mechanics and animations. Just look at purely what the class does for others. On that level, we are the same as doctors. Yet doctors heal individually and it is accepted. We get a gimped ability to select who we heal and people cry foul.