Dancer Archive
Thread: No love in the other post so....
moving my idea to a new thread:
ok first things first, don't just read 'meeuki' and 'afk' and automatically hit reply to call me a cockgobbler. read the whole post and consider the outcome of the change first.
part one: in cantinas the gain for dancer healing xp and dancing xp is doubled. much more dancer xp the larger the group you are in.
why? this would speed up hologrinding, and encourage all afkers to go to the cantinas. it would also really encourage them to look for large groups.
"but this is madness!" you say, we don't want to help these people!!!
hear me out.....
part two: remove the restriction that only allows BF healing, mind healing, and buffing in cantinas. BUT, keep it within city boundaries (in NPC cities only).
"omg! is he insane!? remove the restrictions but keep the healing/buffing restricted to within city boundaries?!"
"but then the cantinas will be devoid of real dancers!" - not so, my next point covers this.
"people will be dancing in the streets!" yup. this is a good thing, in the streets and in other areas of the game there are far more places better suited for putting on performances, or even congregating.
see i think dancers should put on shows. i didn't really understand why people said the profession was ruined when there are still plenty of places to put on shows. outside of the cantina in good/well lit environments. but it's clear that alot of people just want to dance and chat. i didn't really understand that until i read one of chessack's posts yesterday about being followed by afkers.
so you can't chat in an empty cantina. you also can't chat in a silent zombie filled cantina. you need a place where everyone congregates that you can go to that is devoid of afks, but also has patronage. removing afks doesn't solve this, because other cantinas would be empty still. so we need some sort of encouragement for dancers to be in certain areas.
but how do you do that? force players to come to you to heal mind? yes that is one way... but that can be frustrating alot of times. players don't really want to be there. one look at the thread that was in the general discussion yesterday can give a clue as to how a good portion of the playerbase looks on being forced to go to the cantina. so how do you get people to want to come where the real entertainers are?
part three: give cantinas, hotels, theaters, the music stations in the streets in various cities, a 5-10% bonus to mind buff. i'm thinking 5% for the cantina, and up to 10% for other venues in cities that are underutilized.
healing people is great. with these changes we could do it anywhere. dancers would be healing BF in the dirt ring of the starport, people wouldn't be forced to run to the cantina, pick an afk, and leave. people would know where the real dancers go, and that would be places with the buffing bonus. why would an afk go there?
why would an afk dance someplace that gave them 25% of the normal xp? sure, it's going to happen every once in a while... but these people won't be able to buff, and it won't be a zombie sea.
with this i can envision communities springing up all over galaxies. small communities, not the disco party mess that theed was before the afk phenomenon. quieter cantinas might lure actual dancers since afk infiltration could be controlled since if they aren't in a group, they simply aren't going to be getting much xp. like minded ATK individuals control the group, forcing AFKers to migrate to AFK locals
think about this a bit before you respond.
imagine that little cafe theater outside of the theater guild hall. imagine 5 - 10 dancers hanging out there every day, forming their own little community. imagine players knowing that area gives them a 10% bonus to a buff, so a whole group heads over to watch the show. stragglers know about the area too, and know someone who's actually entertaining will be there.
this could not happen now, because nobody would ever come to watch. why? because they wouldn't get anything out of it. sure fans would watch, but we are talking about luring the general populace, not people with a soft spot for dancers.
how hard of a design change could this be?i think it would take care of our professions problems in a week or two i think.
it could even be tweaked... say hotels got the 2x xp bonus instead of cantinas. wouldn't this lure the afks to the hotels, but keep the people interested in the cantinas coming for the buff bonuses? thoughts... flames (i guess) questions....
ok first things first, don't just read 'meeuki' and 'afk' and automatically hit reply to call me a cockgobbler. read the whole post and consider the outcome of the change first.
Cockgobbler. *wink* Had to get that out of the way.
That being said, I see some good ideas. I had some of the initial opposition that you mentioned, but I'm working around that.
why? this would speed up hologrinding, and encourage all afkers to go to the cantinas. it would also really encourage them to look for large groups.
True. We can have two camps of dance/music: There's the group that seeks only xp and the group that seeks actual patronage. We have those two camps now. I usually went to Bestine for a boost in xp and Wayfar if I felt like getting tips (back in the Jabba-is-cool days). Dathomir gets more tips usually, but the xp sucks. This just takes that idea and makes it more blatant. I'd hate to use the cantina as the dumping ground, though. But I don't know what else to use.
part two: remove the restriction that only allows BF healing, mind healing, and buffing in cantinas. BUT, keep it within city boundaries (in NPC cities only).
I was always opposed to this idea. But then, what really makes the rest of the town so different from the cantina? This probably means that med centers will be the new cantina as some docs will incur mind wounds and not leave the med center. Is that a bad thing? I can see some controversy there.
see i think dancers should put on shows. i didn't really understand why people said the profession was ruined when there are still plenty of places to put on shows. outside of the cantina in good/well lit environments. but it's clear that alot of people just want to dance and chat. i didn't really understand that until i read one of chessack's posts yesterday about being followed by afkers.
Hmm, well, you know, in RL (I know, evil RL comparison here), you see performers in subway stations. Why would a starport be different?
part three: give cantinas, hotels, theaters, the music stations in the streets in various cities, a 5-10% bonus to mind buff. i'm thinking 5% for the cantina, and up to 10% for other venues in cities that are underutilized.
If this type of healing were to happen, this only makes sense. Agreed there.
why would an afk dance someplace that gave them 25% of the normal xp? sure, it's going to happen every once in a while... but these people won't be able to buff, and it won't be a zombie sea.
I would imagine that some AFKers would choose the starport just because of the volume. Sure, it's a smaller rate of xp, but enough people will be looking for that easy fix instead of going to the cantina. But there is a chance it won't be a zombie sea.
I suppose that 5 months ago, I'd be singing a different tune. But now--after watching cantina after cantina fall away from being the paragon of role-playing--I'm open to the idea. I think most people agree that a change needs to be made. Is this change the best proposal? Maybe...maybe not. But it is a change, and I don't hate it.
As a nonadvancing Dancer, I don't need the xp. I just like to dance for people. If someone asks for a dance in the street, I would give it to him. I'm sure a lot of Master Dancers and other nonadvancing Dancers feel the same way.
Under this proposal, the public cantinas would not be the center of social activity and role-playing. In my experience, we're already there, so what's wrong with a little change?
omg feedback!
True. We can have two camps of dance/music: There's the group that seeks only xp and the group that seeks actual patronage. We have those two camps now. I usually went to Bestine for a boost in xp and Wayfar if I felt like getting tips (back in the Jabba-is-cool days). Dathomir gets more tips usually, but the xp sucks. This just takes that idea and makes it more blatant. I'd hate to use the cantina as the dumping ground, though. But I don't know what else to use.
imo the cantinas are the perfect spot. they are dirty and grey, the scum hang out there... lol. the whole premise of this relies on a dumping ground though, and that's unfortunate. maybe the hotels could be the dumping grounds instead... problem with that is changing the way people think. people still don't know how to geta mind buff, it would be months and months before the figure out the most efficient way to afk is in the hotels.
I was always opposed to this idea. But then, what really makes the rest of the town so different from the cantina? This probably means that med centers will be the new cantina as some docs will incur mind wounds and not leave the med center. Is that a bad thing? I can see some controversy there.
i dont understand the doc part, maybe because i've never played one. use small words. hehe
Hmm, well, you know, in RL (I know, evil RL comparison here), you see performers in subway stations. Why would a starport be different?
yeah exactly! it seems like the developers (or at least the artists) had this in mind when the designed the game. looking around in each city there are tons of places set up to be gathering spots, or even entertaining spots. what they lack is an extrinsic draw to them though. sure they are pretty but players want a bit more than that. especially this playerbase... which is highly shifted towards the achievers, imo at least.
I would imagine that some AFKers would choose the starport just because of the volume. Sure, it's a smaller rate of xp, but enough people will be looking for that easy fix instead of going to the cantina. But there is a chance it won't be a zombie sea.
thats possible, even 25% isn't a deterant when you get 10x the traffic of any other locale. still, double normal xp i think would keep everyone but the most blatant afker out of the starports. although honestly i can't say that i'd mind seeing the ticket terminal room cluttered with people. if only people could put out mats and sell leather purses and fake ids.
As a nonadvancing Dancer, I don't need the xp. I just like to dance for people. If someone asks for a dance in the street, I would give it to him. I'm sure a lot of Master Dancers and other nonadvancing Dancers feel the same way.
exactly.
Hmm.. was very skeptical at first but after reading all of it and considering it.. I think you have some good ideas. It definitely needs some tuning, but the basic idea of giving the NPC cantina's to the Zombies and giving the real entertainers somewhere else to go that they're less likely to be followed is a really good one.
I really can't say how the devs will respond to an idea like this at first. Most likely they'll bea tough sell... after the holidays I'll see about feeling them out about it and see if we might be able to work something out. That is of course if the majority of the community or those posting at least like the idea too. Depends on the feedback, but either way I'll come back to this thread after the holidays for another look and decide what to do with it.
Great ideas, thanks for sharing. 
Message Edited by Ravenmist on 12-24-2003 09:54 AM
But let me play devils advocate. I know you have this great idea about how this would separate the zombies from the players. You are going on an awful big assumption that you are right, though. Let me suggest an alternate scenereo as this is implemented.
Power grinders aren't interested in the biggest xp boost, they are interested in the fastest xp. Dancing xp doesn't mean anything these days, it's healing xp that does. Dancing xp is already earned outside of cantinas anyway. If this is implemented, I suspect Theed and Coronet cantina will no longer be THE place to go get xp. Guess where it will be..
You already know the answer. You've mentioned it in other posts. Yep. The Theed and Coronet starports. The ones that already have huge crowds around them. It will just get worse, with musician particle effects, and dancer and musician lighting effects adding to it. I already know several people who literally can't go to Theed or Coronet by the shuttleport because they will lag out and take up to an hour to get out of the area. Having a group of entertainers there along with the people who need healing will just make it that much worse.
Not to mention how people will even know where to find entertainers. One of the biggest complaints about entertainers I see (And the biggest argument for AFK entertainers by non entertainers) is that they never know WHERE to find an entertainer. When they need to be healed, they want to go somewhere they know an entertainer will be, not just stumble across one in the street. For this reason, most entertainers will still stick to the cantinas, or will go to the starport. Those who don't will suffer a major xp penalty. So you're forced to take longer to get the healing xp. I don't just mean twice as long, I mean much much MUCH longer. It took me probably a month to get half the healing xp dancing elsewhere than I got in 2 days in Theed and Coronet. If you don't want to take longer, you're forced to go to a good xp spot. And by definition, if it's a good xp spot, grinders will be there. (The grinders aren't in static locations. They will move as the good xp moves.)
If you can solve those problems you might be onto something. (Game design/balancing isn't as easy as you thought it was, was it.)
First impressions make a big difference. As a new entertainer, will they know to go to one of these "alternate locations"? No, they will go to the cantina. They will find out entertaining is just about setting a macro and going AFK. That's why I don't like the "go somewhere else" answer. People who have been entertaining awhile may know to do that. But people who are brand new will have no clue that they would be best to avoid the cantinas. In fact, they would head to the cantinas.
Tiaga wrote:
Not to mention how people will even know where to find entertainers.
*chuckle* A new use for /register. Hurt person simply types "/find entertainer" and gets a lighted path to the nearest registered Dancer/Musician. heh.
Or not.
You raise a very good point about the starports. I was dismissing that problem, but maybe I shouldn't.
We could prevent healing in the starport. Then people will gather at the door to the starport. So we prevent healing 30 meters from the starport. People will still gather there. It's tough to adjudicate.
I like the idea, but yeah, the starport thing could be a hassle. Also discourages the cute idea of performing in the subway.
Pfft, I like that idea. I think I'll go perform with my banthas in the starport tonight. It'll be fun.
I've had computer problems since and have not been able to check but I think this is a fabulous idea and might be an alternative to the "dancing in the streets" if people really don't like that. One way or another the basic idea here is, "Let's gather the AFKers in one spot (or set of spots) and the non-AFKers somewhere else so they don't step on each other's toes," and I think that is a sound idea.
C
ok first things first, don't just read 'meeuki' and 'afk' and automatically hit reply to call me a cockgobbler.
cockglobber ! ( And no, I did not do this automatically, I hate bots 
)
I like your idea of keeping the problem confined and making room for those that need it. It might be an easy to code workaround ( don't know the source code, so that's a pretty wild guess from the outside ).
There are some points I don't like about it:
Part one: Acknowledging the AFKers need for xp and keeping them confined in an area where they don't bother anyone and get xp fast to get out of our way. For one, I think there is no help for a game that doesn't recognize the unattended gameplay problem. I have played countless online games, like many here, and I have seen countless players trying to cheat by using software of any kind ( in game, out of game, commercial... ) to gain more than they could have by playing themselves. I wrote some bots myself, for simple games it's easy. They gain in terms of ingame riches, but lose in terms of fun. For both sides.
Being confronted by bots is unfun, and being played by a bot after a while is no longer fun, too. Bots remove fairness and a feeling of achievement from the game. There are countless bots, not only Macrotainer variants. I have written bots for browser based strategy games and to my own surprise my hastily written bot was playing smarter than 70% of the playerbase. When you combined that with 24/7 availability online, it was next to unbeatable. Only by other, more powerful bots. If the game administration is not coming down on unattended gameplay, the game will lose much of it's atmosphere, fairness and feeling of achievement.
There is a dire need to stop unattended gameplay in any online game, this included. And I'd rather see that happen sooner than later. They have to do it for the good of the game ( not only Macrotainer, but all classes that can be botted ). If they cannot stop Macrotaining, the most in-your-face form of unattended gameplay, how would they ever detect third party software ? Like to bot a weaponsmith ? Use swgwsmaker 0.8. All you need is internet access and a windows PC. It will even relog your char after serverdown and write a forum post on why your server is last to come up. This will be the future. Or administrative measures to prevent unattended gameplay.
And finally, if we want to get rid of the AFKers, why not simply give them a button to click for master dancer ? I mean all they invest is time on their dsl line thats probably a flatrate. If we let them click for master, we get rid of them faster. They won't clutter up the cantinas, they won't be on so the server is less laggy... take the shortcut. I don't like the sound of that, but it's the logical conclusion.
Part 2: Performing outside. I like that idea very much. However, just imagine I would play outside of the Theed cantina. If people stop and listen and this gets a great spot for entertainment, it should give great xp to the entertainer. Thats how reward xp systems work. The band outside gets tons of healing xp. After some days, the AFKers will notice they get none, and will slowly, one after another creep outside and infest the band outside. Or simply stand beside them and performing in the hopes of someone who can't see who belongs to the live group. This entertainer plague will follow the live people whereever they go, because that's where the xp is. So the live people would be constantly on the run. Noone would ever know where to find the great band the next day. Not even their customers, who need healing above all else and go back to the remaining AFKers.
Being on the run from AFKers would be a workaround for the problem. But I'd rather see the administration tackle the problem head on, which to me seems dead easy: First step: Announce publicly it's wrong. Second step: send out a single person ( can be the janitor on his free day ) to punish the first 10 Macrotainers he sees. That will not solve the problem for good. But it will solve 90% of it. Not a single line of code is needed for that. As unattended 3rd party playing is a violation, I would suspect they already do... but I guess they don't.
Sorry for being so negative, I like the general idea of people playing on the streets. I just don't think it's a solution for this problem.
I'm certainly ready to look for other ways to handle the issue. I have not danced in a public cantina in ages and I miss the great social aspects of it. Still, I cannot help but think that the real solution comes from the game maker.
In Ultima Online, it was illegal to macro unattended and could cost you your account. This was not fairly and evenly monitored but enough people got banned for it that the majority didn't try it. Most who did stuck mostly to remote areas where other players would not see them and report them. People still macro'd unattended but it was risky enough that most people didn't think it was worth it.
I pay to play the game. I don't get paid to monitor the actions of other players or come up with ways to fix game breaking problems. I expect the game maker to make and enforce policies that promote good game play. Playing a social class in a sea of zombies is not good game play. Those who find these professions tedious should avoid them. Those who need entertainer healing should seek out entertainers just as they seek out doctors, slicers, and vendors; you have them in your datapad or on your friends list and if there are no doctors or slicers online, or the vendor isn't stocked, you just have to wait until they are available. End of story.
That said, I really like most of your ideas aside from the reasons you'd like to see them implemented. Missions that sent me to various locations to entertain and paid me enough to make it worth it would be cool too. I love dancing at the shuttle or the starport or the bank. I enjoy dancing in front of city hall. I enjoy dancing at faction headquarters and in camps. I'm ready to accept healing battle fatigue in camps now for the sole reason of having other ATK players to talk with while I'm dancing. I love doing shows and finally have a weekly gig in my player city. I really enjoy dancing...anywhere!
Cantinas are broken and they need to be fixed; on that we can agree. So, here's some love for your willingness to look for solutions; it says you are invested in your character's skills. Here's some love too, for brainstorming and thinking up some great ideas and sharing them. Don't be discouraged if people don't agree; it's probably because they are also invested and it matters to them too. /hug!
nvoigt wrote:
oh, and I'd trade a small planet for an edit button...
There's always proofreading your posts *grin*
Which is something I'm guilty of neglecting myself. *sigh*
You raise good points about the AFK issue. But if the devs haven't fixed this in the past 6 months, then I'm going to give up on it. You are right that it should be easy to fix with some moles. Heck, I'd even volunteer to be a mole just to insert some role-playing.
That is something that could be brought up to the devs, but it is a bigger issue than just entertaining. We know of a lot of surveying, creature handling, and combat macros where unattended gameplay is the norm for these people. This should be escalated to the higher forums. Just like decay-upon-death affects not just Armorsmiths, the AFK thing affects not just entertainers.
For that reason, I'd rather focus on these ideas at hand.