Dancer Archive
Thread: Deila's State of the Entertainer Professions
Xyrdre wrote:
So What of the Future for Entertainers?
Message Edited by Esharra on 05-29-2004 05:02 PM
Message Edited by Esharra on 05-29-2004 05:03 PM
I have reluctantly been forced to conclude that the answer to the question is that the experiment has failed. Indeed, I have phrased it exactly this way when talking tomembers of my PA who cannot fathom why I wanted to be an entertainer in the first place.Even if the developers do not currently agree that this is the case, their priorities will be elsewhere for the forseeable future (Jedi revamp, combat balancing, JtL, JtL bug fixing) and that asthey currently exist, the entertainer professions are largely untenable. Because of this, there will be essentially no change to our gameplay for the next six months or more aside from, perhaps, a few bells and whistles such as the Hutt Casino. But the fundamental nature of our role does not appear to have any chance to change in that time frame, and quite probably for some time longer. The result is, that we are what we are for the forseeable future. And what we are is a failed experiment in new type of social gameplay in an online game.
Wonderful discussion Deila, there's a lot to think about there.
I agree on the next question to the devs. We need to ask what they see as our role in the game, why they see it that way, and how we can enhance that role within their framework. Because obviously, if we're not "healers," then we're missing something. I mean everyone gets Battle Fatigue, and the only way to get rid of it (unless you're a Jedi) is to watch an entertainer. But we're not healers? Then what are we?
Anyway, I think that's the kind of question we need to ask. And it has the benefit of NOT being a question that can be answered with a simple "no," or "not until after the combat balance" or "we can't do that because we're working on JTL."
Hmm, after reading some of the other responses, I felt I should clarify what I wrote above. Of course, it's long enough already, but I'm going to write more anyway. 
I think I probably went on about my own personal issues, which is probably not what you were asking for. But, I think my own personal issues directly relate to what you were talking about. I may be satisfied with the state of our social game, while I am not satisfied with the state of our healing and interdependency game. As such, I would be quite happy with our next question or our next "push" to be, as you say, "How do the devs see our profession?" That could be now, in the future, or whatever. I do think it's important to know how they look at us. And, it's not a yes or no question, which is a good thing too. It appears to me, at this point, that anything we ask for is going to be "no." So, it would be handy to have some kind of guiding outlook so that we know what is and is not feasible. Because I don't know about you guys, but I am thoroughly perplexed at this point about what we are, how we're supposed to be, and what we have in store for us. And, quite frankly, knowing how they feel about us would help some of us make certain decisions about whether or not we want to continue playing this profession.
Personally, I know what I want, and I know how I will react to certain answers. I just need to hear this for myself so that I can make an informed decision and either a) Be happy about what's coming or b) stop wasting my time and do something fun that the devs consider to be "useful."
(note: this extremely lengthy document has been broken into two posts)
Are we Addressing the Correct Issues? Treating the Cause Rather Than the Symptom
Self-buffing is only one issue... and I see it asa smaller issue right now. If we could selfbuff, do any ofyou really think our problems and issues would go away? Would our experience as dancers, or entertainers, be rich, fulfilling gameplay? Is this the "big fix" that we need to make the profession more playable? Would this make everything okay?
Right now, the ability to buff ourselves would be nothing more than a pat on the head to quiet the masses, in my opinion. A band-aid, a handout to quiet down the natives. Sure, I would love to be able to buff my own mind - and in light of the other professions abilities, think it is only right that we should be able to. But I do not think that self-buffing will make the entertainer professions more playable, enjoyable, or resolve our true major issues.
Our list of performance enhancements would be quite fun as well... but if we had all the new toys, would that be enough to truly satisfy for the long-run, or would it merely be another temporary patch that would soon lose its luster, and we'd be back to the complaints for lack of content and/or involvement?
Yes... these things would be wonderful, and probably very needed, additions to our professions. But are they enough? Are we beating our heads against the wall over the wrong areas to truly repair the obviouslack of satisfaction in the entertainer professions?
There is a Much Larger Clear and Present Danger
In the 'Latest Answer from TH' thread, I alluded to it, and Panthu mentioned it. We do not have currently havea solid -and protected -role in the game.
Sure, entertainer professionshave some measure of a role, which is bf and mind wound healing, and blue buffing. The problem is that otherplayers have found a way to circumvent ourprofession'sroles in the game withautomatedAFK healers and buffbots. We have seen no concrete statements from the devs stating that this is intended to be corrected, so we must therefore assume that it will not be.
But what is the role of entertainer players? Us... the people who actively play entertainers, and have stuck it out seeing the potential in this experiment of a set of "social professions"? What is our role, when all of our existingcontributions in game mechanics not can be, but have been, replaced by automated systems? Suddenly, we the players behind the entertainer professions are not needed, have no concreterole, and are left in our current state - a group of intensely frustrated and disheartened players who have waited, watched, and even fought to try to protect our "rights",as our SWG gameplay experience has deteriorated into travesty.
What is left for us? Yes... there are some players out there who vastly prefer to have a live entertainer to spend their "down-time" with. There are players who walk a more solitary path in their day-to-day gaming - whether by design, choice, or simply because they're shy- and after periods of being out in the wilds alone hunting their quarry, thoroughly enjoy finding a smile, a friendly uncritical ear, and some pleasant conversation. Some even enjoy roleplaying. But it seems that the vast majority of players get their "socialization" from their hunting or PvP groups as it is, and have no real desire for our "graphical chat room", and of those, many in fact resent it, and us. Are the members of the former group enough to provide us a satisfactory gaming experience in our roles as entertainers?
What is the Current and IntendedRole of Entertainers within SWG?
My assessment of our original intent, based on all that I have read from the manuals, forums, and dev comments - with a little bit of reading between the lines using my past experience as a game designer as guidance:
We were to be an experiment in including a social/roleplaying element and playerbase opportunity into an otherwise typical PvP based game. Yes, a PvP game, for how else would you interpret the concept of "An Empire Divided" and the Galactic Civil War other than as Rebel vs. Imperial players duking it out? Yet, PvP alonedoes not provide for an economy, so mission runs are included to generate finances, and crafters are introduced to provide the equipment needed to go and duke it out, etc.
We were given non-combattant roles, and integrated into the overall game and "primary" playerbasethrough ourgame mechanicsas the sole healers of battle fatigue and mind wounds. While performing these necessary functions, we would also provide a more "Star Warsy" immersive experience for the other players - we would play a part in bringing those static cities (and later player cities)to life, with populations that stayed in those cities. Without populations in the cities there would be little sense of a living, breathing galaxy... and we, and to some extent the doctors and medics in the med centers, were to be the basis of players staying in those cities to be the residents.
All in all, it was a good plan. A very reasonable and seemingly effective way to integrate a whole new type of gaming into a PvP core game. But then things went off the plan, as they will almost always do when the players get their hands on things. Players are always messing up the best laid plans of game developers... trust me on thisif you don't know it as fact. We all know the history lesson of how our role was automated and replaced.
(to page 2...)
Ok, that's a lot to think about.
There's a lot of good thoughts in there. But, I think that I can only speak for myself and how I feel. I'm generally very easily satisfied. There are two things at the core of why I am a dancer. First, I think it's fun. The socializing, roleplaying, performing, and watching Drygo's dance moves. It's my favorite profession in this game so far. Second, but no less important, is the interdependency. Despite how much fun I have dancing, I would more than likely not be dancing if there was no need for dancers in the greater SWG universe. I want to be a healer and a buffer. I want to be able to charge for it. I want there to be a reason people need to see me or use me just like I need to see and use nearly every other professional in this game.
I do agree that it would be nice to know what the devs believe our place is. In another thread, Panthu alluded to the fact that we are not viewed as doctors (or healers for that matter?), which doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. The devs set up this game in such a way that we are required in order for others to be healed, but we are not healers? So, yeah, I absolutely would like to know what the devs believe we are and what our role is.
To me, it seems like every profession has social and roleplaying aspects to it, even if it's merely selling to a customer, or leading a group out to battle. We all have it and I don't think it's unique to the entertainer professions. To be perfectly honest with you, everything that may be added in the future in the way of social or roleplaying opportunities is merely icing on the cake to me. Yes, I would like to have more dances, more exotic flourishes, and props. But, honestly, if we never got that stuff, it wouldn't make me upset. It wouldn't make me angry. The droids were very cool. I love the two I have. I'm looking very forward to the Hutt Casino. I think these things are going to bring me many hours of happiness and enjoyment. But, again, if none of this ever happened, I wouldn't get upset over it. So, basically, what I'm saying is, all of this wonderful wonderful icing on the cake. But, I am already happy with what we have. It may not be a popular opinion, but it is mine. I dance, and I perform daily. I socialize, I roleplay, I'm part of an entertainer troupe that plays concerts and does wedding gigs, among other things. The devs have provided us already with an amazing amount of content to do things like this that you just don't really see in other games. I'm happy. Sure, I want more. But, I'm happy with this stuff and you'll never see me whining about anything related to this on the boards. If you do, feel free to smack me upside the head and give me a reality check flashback about what I said today.
On the other hand, I'm very much concerned regarding the abilities that we use for interdependence in this game. Our skills, what we can do, and the fact that we can't do it for ourselves. Like I said above, I love dancing. But, no matter how much I love it, if tomorrow they took away the healing and the buffing, chances are I'd go through a possibly lengthy period of mourning as I slowly strip away all of my dancing abilities and take up a new profession. My concerns with the dancing profession are solely about interdependence and using our skills for ourselves. Buffbots need to be nerfed. And, we need to be able to buff ourselves.
Now, I understand what you're saying. And, yes, I do believe that my buffing concerns do directly relate to the question of what the developers believe our profession is supposed to be. For, if they don't believe, or we cannot convince them that "bad game design" comes in the form of afk players as opposed to buffing ourselves, then we're pretty much screwed. Quite frankly, I'd like to know how they reconcile what we think they think our role is as a social profession, with afk healing and buffbots.
I do not believe that the vast majority (perhaps half and half--probably less) of the players resent us or don't want to have to go back to the Cantinas. Maybe it's the people I hang around with, I don't know. But, I feel that for the most part I have always been appreciated. People have enjoyed my company, they have enjoyed my performances. I don't think that the "going to the Cantina" thing is such a chore as people make it out to be. There are some vocal people who are annoyed by it, sure. But, the longer I play, the more and more people I see getting excited when there are real live entertainers playing, and when there are real live entertainers that want to actually come out and join a hunting and raiding party. This is just my perspective. But, from my point of view, I think we're a-ok when it comes to the social stuff. I don't think we're ok when it comes to buffbots and not being allowed to buff ourselves. And, unfortuntely, these two things are deal breakers for me.
I have invested too much time building myself up, and am having too much fun performing in an official troupe to give it up now. But, trust me, if buffbots become commonplace and I am eventually not allowed to buff myself, I won't be dancing a year from now.
So, basically, you mentioned that buffing ourselves might be a temporary appeasing of the masses. Perhaps you might be right. Like I said, I can't speak for the masses. But, I will tell you this, I will be appeased by allowing me to buff myself. I may have minor complaints here or there like I always have. But, I can honestly say that I have never gotten asmad, irate, or as upset as I have when I found out the non-plans to allow us to buff ourselves. The rest is icing on the cake as far as I'm concerned. Unpopular or no, that's just how I feel.
Message Edited by Drygo on 05-29-2004 12:52 PM
Message Edited by Drygo on 05-29-2004 12:54 PM
Deila you have put into words much of what I have been pondering the past few days, but didn't have the heart to post(or the ability - my pc died yesterday and I am trying to use my husband's company laptop which already dumped me off the forum once, so far . . . ).
I agree wholeheartedly - our next question should be along the lines of "What does the development team see as the actual intendedrole of entertainers in the overall SWG game design?" Someone with programming knowledge should be able to reword that properly into dev-speak. /grin
Very true - otherwise, we are just Stepford Dancers . . .
ArgentWulf wrote:
We need to be able to perform a useful and viable function in the game or we are so much window dressing! . . . They may know the coding, but we are the heart and soul.
I know I'd certainly be interested in seeing what kind of response Kwee got. Prior to the ID revamp there wasn't a single function that IDs had that could not be replaced with a static terminal. After the revamp, the IDs still didn't have a single function that could not be replaced with a static terminal. In fact at this point, I suspect most players would prefer that the ID profession be removed from the game and all the ID functions given to the terminals in the tent. You can click on a stat migration check box from a terminal interface just as easily as you can from a real live ID. Terminals are better in their mind anyway, they don't have free will or walk around making it hard to find one.
With our only game function able to be performed by unattended bots we are more or less already in that situation. I too am at the point where I question the validity of this profession even being in the game.I guess our next question to TH should be, "What is our purpose in life?" I'm not sure we are going to like the answer though. It is especially distressing for me, someone who has been working on unlocking, to find that her primary profession, dancing, will see no benefit from doing so. Have I no function that would see a benefit from being Force Sensitive or not? If not then it obviously means we have no unique ability we bring to the game.
I always suspected we were the "girlfriend" profession, but I think we are now the "trophy girlfriend" profession.
DarkY0da wrote:
We are the pretty red-headed step-child that they lock in the basement and only let out to dance for the guests to show them how nifty it is to have a dancing red-headed step-child. At which point they unplug the bot and put it back in the basement for use some other time.
Ha! 
Ok, that was funny, but it's not really as bad as that. I think they really believe we are happy with the current system... and many moons ago, I think we were. The game and gamebase has just changed around us so much that it's exposed all of our instabilities before they've had a chance to notice that our role isn't really fitting in anymore. It's normal for a Profession to have to shift around a little to keep fitting in, they just haven't noticed how badly we need a shifting yet.
That's the main reason I'm worried about the CB for us... again, we won't get a direct hit, but how much will the game change around us?
I actually have something I'd like to quote from the Corre Forum on our "role" - what it is meant to be, how well they think it's working, and when they are planning on looking at it again. It came up during one of Kwee's recent threads on the ID revamp and speaks of Entertainers as a whole. If I can get permission to quote, I will. I think it would help Deila's discussion. If I can't, then we can use our next question for TH to get a statement.
would i like new dances and finished flourishes would i like the ability to self buff yes. however what what i think we need more than any of that stuff is to get rid of the player npc's that plague our profession.
It used to be aside from hologrinders yous see one or two buffbotsgrinding there way thru entertainer now i see charecters like so and so's slave everyday. or entertainers oh im so and so's alt buffbott. and more and more ofthe real atk entertainrs are quitting i think its down to like 4 or 5 on my server me and another dancer have been able to count.
And o while all the rpobsand flourishes and dances and casinos would be nice it is not what we really need we may want it but there are things we need even more.