Creature Handler Archive

I have been away from the boards for a while, so have just been blissfully oblivious to a lot of the CH issues. One does strike me as I read through all the posts about CH problems. I refer to the issue of pets running from battle.

Now correct me if I am wrong, and I am confident somebody will, but the problem as I udersand it (and have observed) is that at some point in battle the pet will turn tail and run. Sometimes completely off radar so that you have to try to find him, or even make a camp and store/recall him. Other times he will break off and come running back to you. I get the impression if it could talk, it would probably be yelling "Save me! Save me!" This happens at many points, even when the target is almost dead and the Pet is at full health. However, it is more likely to occur as the CL of the opponent goes up, and as additional opponents are added. And once it starts running you pretty much have to spam attack to keep it going until it rests a bit.

Now... IF that is the problem.... The reason is a simple game mechanic and creature trait. I have been working on BE of late, and have come to understand fairly well how critters are put togeter. There are 5 categories in building creatures: Physique, Prowess, Mental, Psychology and Aggressiveness. These have related attributes of Hardiness & Fortitude (Phys), Dexterity & Endurance (Prow), Intellect & Cleverness (Mental), Dependablity & Courage (Psych) and Fierceness & Power (Aggro). These attributes determine the final stats when a creature is put together. For example, Health is based on 40% Phys + 25% Prow + 5% Mental + 5% Psych + 25% Aggro. I have not found an exact ratio on a pet's ability to stick in a battle, but based on my observation, it is likley in order of importance Psyche, Aggressiveness, Mental, and equal amounts of Physique and Prowess, giving your pet a final Psyche score. The problem is, unlike HAM or resists, there is no visible indicator of the end product so you can determine the calculations.

So what can we as CH do to determine how well a pet will stick in combat? For BE pets, you can ask the BE what the final Dependability and courage were in the DNA they used to build the pet. The closer to 1000 each, the better they are. If you wonder what your natural/wild/tamed pet will tend toward, you can look at the stats from BE samples to see what they generally run. It seems that every pet has its own set of stats within certain ranges for its creature type. So even 2 non-BE pets of the same type will tend to react slightly different than another of the same type.

I may be way off on this one, but I'm sure I read somewhere that our pets where not actually running away, but by design of the combat system, somehow trying to calculate the next move of it's opponent, which in turn does the same thing back. In this way each one is taking one step ahead of the other and making it look like the pet is running away, when in actuality it is trying to stay ahead of it's opponent. I will have to try and find the post on this, as I'm sure I messed it up in translation. Apparenlty it is more obvious with larger pets like my Kimo cause they take bigger steps. I could be wrong. I will check it out when I get time.

Heineken

Radiant

Ok. There is the range bug itself. But there is also a running from battle bug. EVERY FRIGGEN TIME one of my pets gets dizzed against a Piket it runs. I am sorry but dizzy should not have that effect. My ferocity 9 graul runs. If there are stats that are involved that we need to know about CH should see them. The description stated that CH would have a chance to own pets that are better than in the wild. So far my pets run, creatures attacking me do not. CH pets are not better.

why arent u guys out there mindlessly searching for rare pets instead of using your pets?

That was supposed to be the fix for all your problems.

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Sooty wrote:

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InvincibleOverlord wrote:
I have been away from the boards for a while, so have just been blissfully oblivious to a lot of the CH issues. One does strike me as I read through all the posts about CH problems. I refer to the issue of pets running from battle.

Now correct me if I am wrong, and I am confident somebody will, but the problem as I udersand it (and have observed) is that at some point in battle the pet will turn tail and run. Sometimes completely off radar so that you have to try to find him, or even make a camp and store/recall him. Other times he will break off and come running back to you. I get the impression if it could talk, it would probably be yelling "Save me! Save me!" This happens at many points, even when the target is almost dead and the Pet is at full health. However, it is more likely to occur as the CL of the opponent goes up, and as additional opponents are added. And once it starts running you pretty much have to spam attack to keep it going until it rests a bit.

Now... IF that is the problem.... The reason is a simple game mechanic and creature trait. I have been working on BE of late, and have come to understand fairly well how critters are put togeter. There are 5 categories in building creatures: Physique, Prowess, Mental, Psychology and Aggressiveness. These have related attributes of Hardiness & Fortitude (Phys), Dexterity & Endurance (Prow), Intellect & Cleverness (Mental), Dependablity & Courage (Psych) and Fierceness & Power (Aggro). These attributes determine the final stats when a creature is put together. For example, Health is based on 40% Phys + 25% Prow + 5% Mental + 5% Psych + 25% Aggro. I have not found an exact ratio on a pet's ability to stick in a battle, but based on my observation, it is likley in order of importance Psyche, Aggressiveness, Mental, and equal amounts of Physique and Prowess, giving your pet a final Psyche score. The problem is, unlike HAM or resists, there is no visible indicator of the end product so you can determine the calculations.

So what can we as CH do to determine how well a pet will stick in combat? For BE pets, you can ask the BE what the final Dependability and courage were in the DNA they used to build the pet. The closer to 1000 each, the better they are. If you wonder what your natural/wild/tamed pet will tend toward, you can look at the stats from BE samples to see what they generally run. It seems that every pet has its own set of stats within certain ranges for its creature type. So even 2 non-BE pets of the same type will tend to react slightly different than another of the same type.

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Sorry mate, but you are completely wrong. As a long term CH and BE the running away has absolutely nothing to do with internal creature stats or clever AI coding. I made meticulous notes on all my creations, many of which I used myself, and I am absolutely positive that stats have no bearing on this. Supporting evidence includes;

1. Watch the floaties - both creatures continue to do damage to each other indicating they are still fighting, not one is running from the other


2. Same pet models behave the exact same way, regardless of stats. This used to be most evident fighting against bols and other creatures with that basic model. They could hit you at 6m and if you moved closer they would back off again to 6m - try it as a melee player.


3. Linked to (2) above - the pet or mob does a little half-turn several times in a row as the run starts to develop. This is indicative of the above mentioned range alteration it is trying to accomplish.


4. The issue was an annoyance for a long time with a sub-set of mobs and pets. The exact same time that a code change was made to reduce our pets attack and follow ranges to zero, the 'pet running away' problem increased by several orders of magnitude. The pet was continually trying to adjust to an attack range of zero, while the target was trying to attack from its prefered range (seems to go from 3m to about 8m, depending on the mob). Against mobs that had an attack range of 3m the problem was seen sometimes, but the latitude allowed in attack ranges meant it wasn't seen all the time. Against larger mobs however, with longer ranges, the issue became extremely significant, especially for CH/melee players


5. As soon as they fixed the zero-range follow 'bug', the instances of pets 'running away' dropped down to their earlier levels. It still happens, but at about the same frequency as it always had.

Pets will apparently sometimes run if their health dropped low, the same as a mob will. I never saw it personally, as I rarely let my pets get that low. But I know people it has happened to that I trust at their word, so I believe it does happen on occaision. The persistent, and recently (thankfully temporary), issue of pet and mob running around has nothing to do with dependibility or psych or any other hidden stats, it is quite simply a product of the melee range coding built into the game.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but the persistence of this view that it is a function of the AI in the game, when in fact it is a weakness of the melee system, has led to this issue being a problem for CH since release that continues to go unacknowledged by the devs, largely because of misconceptions about the reason for it. All the evidence points to it being a range problem. Very experienced CH have been explaining it for months, but still these misleading ideas blaming it on the AI persist and it is time for them to be set aside.

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yeah have posted it at least 6 times probably more now lol, its a pain in the ass sometimes especially when fighting Enraged rancors keeping you pet inrange for you to shoot the rancors becomes an art form then lol

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Maidenchase wrote:

I may be way off on this one, but I'm sure I read somewhere that our pets where not actually running away, but by design of the combat system, somehow trying to calculate the next move of it's opponent, which in turn does the same thing back. In this way each one is taking one step ahead of the other and making it look like the pet is running away, when in actuality it is trying to stay ahead of it's opponent. I will have to try and find the post on this, as I'm sure I messed it up in translation. Apparenlty it is more obvious with larger pets like my Kimo cause they take bigger steps. I could be wrong. I will check it out when I get time.

Heineken

Radiant

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InvincibleOverlord wrote:
I have been away from the boards for a while, so have just been blissfully oblivious to a lot of the CH issues. One does strike me as I read through all the posts about CH problems. I refer to the issue of pets running from battle.

Now correct me if I am wrong, and I am confident somebody will, but the problem as I udersand it (and have observed) is that at some point in battle the pet will turn tail and run. Sometimes completely off radar so that you have to try to find him, or even make a camp and store/recall him. Other times he will break off and come running back to you. I get the impression if it could talk, it would probably be yelling "Save me! Save me!" This happens at many points, even when the target is almost dead and the Pet is at full health. However, it is more likely to occur as the CL of the opponent goes up, and as additional opponents are added. And once it starts running you pretty much have to spam attack to keep it going until it rests a bit.

Now... IF that is the problem.... The reason is a simple game mechanic and creature trait. I have been working on BE of late, and have come to understand fairly well how critters are put togeter. There are 5 categories in building creatures: Physique, Prowess, Mental, Psychology and Aggressiveness. These have related attributes of Hardiness & Fortitude (Phys), Dexterity & Endurance (Prow), Intellect & Cleverness (Mental), Dependablity & Courage (Psych) and Fierceness & Power (Aggro). These attributes determine the final stats when a creature is put together. For example, Health is based on 40% Phys + 25% Prow + 5% Mental + 5% Psych + 25% Aggro. I have not found an exact ratio on a pet's ability to stick in a battle, but based on my observation, it is likley in order of importance Psyche, Aggressiveness, Mental, and equal amounts of Physique and Prowess, giving your pet a final Psyche score. The problem is, unlike HAM or resists, there is no visible indicator of the end product so you can determine the calculations.

So what can we as CH do to determine how well a pet will stick in combat? For BE pets, you can ask the BE what the final Dependability and courage were in the DNA they used to build the pet. The closer to 1000 each, the better they are. If you wonder what your natural/wild/tamed pet will tend toward, you can look at the stats from BE samples to see what they generally run. It seems that every pet has its own set of stats within certain ranges for its creature type. So even 2 non-BE pets of the same type will tend to react slightly different than another of the same type.

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Sorry mate, but you are completely wrong. As a long term CH and BE the running away has absolutely nothing to do with internal creature stats or clever AI coding. I made meticulous notes on all my creations, many of which I used myself, and I am absolutely positive that stats have no bearing on this. Supporting evidence includes;

1. Watch the floaties - both creatures continue to do damage to each other indicating they are still fighting, not one is running from the other


2. Same pet models behave the exact same way, regardless of stats. This used to be most evident fighting against bols and other creatures with that basic model. They could hit you at 6m and if you moved closer they would back off again to 6m - try it as a melee player.


3. Linked to (2) above - the pet or mob does a little half-turn several times in a row as the run starts to develop. This is indicative of the above mentioned range alteration it is trying to accomplish.


4. The issue was an annoyance for a long time with a sub-set of mobs and pets. The exact same time that a code change was made to reduce our pets attack and follow ranges to zero, the 'pet running away' problem increased by several orders of magnitude. The pet was continually trying to adjust to an attack range of zero, while the target was trying to attack from its prefered range (seems to go from 3m to about 8m, depending on the mob). Against mobs that had an attack range of 3m the problem was seen sometimes, but the latitude allowed in attack ranges meant it wasn't seen all the time. Against larger mobs however, with longer ranges, the issue became extremely significant, especially for CH/melee players


5. As soon as they fixed the zero-range follow 'bug', the instances of pets 'running away' dropped down to their earlier levels. It still happens, but at about the same frequency as it always had.

Pets will apparently sometimes run if their health dropped low, the same as a mob will. I never saw it personally, as I rarely let my pets get that low. But I know people it has happened to that I trust at their word, so I believe it does happen on occaision. The persistent, and recently (thankfully temporary), issue of pet and mob running around has nothing to do with dependibility or psych or any other hidden stats, it is quite simply a product of the melee range coding built into the game.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but the persistence of this view that it is a function of the AI in the game, when in fact it is a weakness of the melee system, has led to this issue being a problem for CH since release that continues to go unacknowledged by the devs, largely because of misconceptions about the reason for it. All the evidence points to it being a range problem. Very experienced CH have been explaining it for months, but still these misleading ideas blaming it on the AI persist and it is time for them to be set aside.