Creature Handler Archive
Thread: Is the CU bad or good?
Page 1 of 2
Dodece
Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:11 pm
#1
Okay I havent tried the CU yet on test center, but I have a good and trusted friend who has. We have much in common and share a great deal in how we expect the game to be played. From his tasteing of it and the info he gave me. Where I was once unsure I am not so much now.
Here are some of the things I found that I loved hearing about.
Medic is now a valuable profession. Sadly novice dosent look to be worth squat. Probabally have to dump that, but I can useing 3 masteries reach level eighty MBH MCH MMa. Whats more each one of those professions seem filled with value. Whereas before marksman was like a chain around the neck, and MBH was maybe one move up on novice bh.
Grouping seems to be more valuable. Still not sure I agree with makeing the group max the strongest max. I would have preferred a system where each group member contributed to the groups level, but atleast a armorsmith will not be running around with all the special mods and increadible ham.
Finally he mailed me this link to a thread in the commando forum.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=commando&message.id=93762
When I read that another player actually viewed a ch as an asset in fighting a level 300 almost knocked me on my butt. Other players actually considering ch as something other then an oddity.
Which leaves me with a bit of a quandry. My BH will be fixed to actually be worth while. My CH will actually be useable against bigger fair, and all my master marksman will mean something. Which to be honest my marksman was only of merit when it came to useing rifles occassionally, and the mods for carbine and pistols.
It occurs to me that of what I heard of the descriptions and stuff I was told the other night by my friend this sounds alot more like the game I signed up for two years ago then when the game became a few months after launch. Relevant medics relevant marksman relevant BH relevant CH. Heavy focus on grouping, and profession diversity. It makes me wonder if all the hard criticism is misplaced. The game was ten times more fun at launch then it was 3 months later, and no its not nostalgia. At that time you could come in the game find a group and go mess something up, and other players actually respected your template.
Anyway what do you guys think?
jopenack
Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:34 pm
#3
my opinion
level based sytem like that = bad, unless you don't like using your brain
hate sytem = bad
icons = bad, It will give you a epileptic siezure
sounds/animations = seen better on mario brothers, hmm wait it is mario brothers lol
armor/weapons can stay but need tweaking
buffs = cant tell yet since they are higher on TC than what they told everyone they will be live. So people grinding there with buffs are not really getting to know how it will be when live, might be cheap ploy lol.
Pets = to me generic, dont much of a difference yet between them. jury's still out since everything is buggy as heck there.
to sum it all up = they have less than two weeks to fix something that is closer to alpha testing than beta, its not looking good, It will take months to fix everything, The game seems cheapened by it all, i don't consider this an upgrade but a downgrade.
My advice go there and see for yourself, make your own opinion and either stay or quit lol.
Sorry wish I could be more positive but soe has drained me of what little I had.
Dodece
Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:52 pm
#4
Well on the level based system and brain thing. I suppose I am a little jaded the system now is very low on intelligence. I neither consider it intelligent or thoughtful as is. You get a template with over the top passive evasions. You are constantly buffed in super armor with super weapons. Constantly downing one buff after another.
I am not against forthought, but if there is far too much forthought. One must conclude that the fight is decided long before the combatants meet. I am not saying the game was ever very strategic. It has always been 1 or 2 move affairs, and over time fighting in the game became pro coward. To the point where players couldnt conceive of fighting without over the top advantages. So if the system as it is goes out the door could care less.
I am still a little concerned about the hate system. I hate to think that the enemy will just ignore my pets defeating the tanking aspect, on the other hand I think if the aggro is to weak players get a free pass simply by shooting a pet in. I suppose it will depend on how easy it is to unstick aggros in play. Not against enemy mobs giveing me love nips aslong as I can still bring my pet back into play. Most CHs are naive to fighting this way. You know pulling a mob back over the pet to break aggros. So I am a little hesitant to go on this judgement.
Graphics I could care less about how intense they are. I am kind of tired of not seeing dynamic effects. Early in the game alot of visual effects and sounds were toned down to be less well annoying, and lag generateing, but I miss seeing my llc in full flower or seeing a nice scatter shot in flight. I could care less if it looks too fancy my issue is more with gameplay. I prefer smash bros to mortal kombat for a reason. I can deal with excessive graphics and sounds. I am sure I can turn down the graphics if it becomes too much a nuisance.
The game is pretty dumbed down as is. Hate system is probabally more a plus then a minus. Graphics neither make or break the game for me. I can always alter my settings on graphics and sound to accomodate.
jopenack
Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:57 pm
#5
If you think the game now is dumbed down lol wait for the curb lol
todays game is only a no brainer if you buff and armor up, I don't especially with ch. not even when going out for taming, no buffs no armor, without risk where is the fun.
same with the new system, purple kills me no matter what I do or how I attack, oh nice grey dot, hit 3 keys over and over bang dead lol
I don't think your going to like it lol, your more of a thinker than I am, and that wont be helpful lol
still, ya never know, i wish you luck
Dodece
Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:43 pm
#6
Lol I hit three buttons now and I win. I agree with you the fight is what you make of it. You can make is as easy or as hard as you like. I think you give too much credit to the system as is.
I still have my purple dots right now krayts and so on. I see them I am going to die. When I see something con red to me and I beat it with ease I consider that a bug. I will give you an example I am roaming around outside of anchorhead talking in tells and zoom past a red con. I engage it I am bored.
Its a hard fight, but I soon figure that the enemy has painfully pathetic AI. I decide to stack my bh dot attacks. I leave my pets in storage. I am hitting torso shot and bleeding shot alternateing. Yeah I got some other shots that would probabally be effective, but why be fancy. Once I did not watch my ham close enough and he incapped me as I was backing off. He is just slowly wandering around. Like a mental retard looking at rocks.
I pop back up stim and go right back to bordering and burn/bleeding him finally put him down. This is a red con for pete sakes. I shouldnt be able to beat him especially with the sloppy tactics I used. I thought up a list of moves I should have probabally used.
Sprayshot to stun dizzy and blind makeing him more vulnerable.
Burstrun to more adequately keep to longer ranges.
Attack with pet
Examine to tell what the enemy was vulnerable to.
Use a laser rifle at long range.
Use a llc I was in prime llc range my accuracy would have been perfect.
Use a powerup on my weapon.
Ideally I should have been useing all this stuff to win and in the right order. Instead I got away with spamming two shots while running in circles. I am not even buffed, and my armor is far from great. Nothing can be any simpler then this its flat out ridiculous. I salute your adherance to trying to make the game difficult for yourself, but well you be the judge fights are three button afairs now too.
Well only time can be the judge, but in my oppinion the CU will be kind of hard pressed to have combat being as lame as it is right now.
LecheHombre
Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:51 pm
#7
I'll mirror Jopenack's format with my opinions:
level based sytem like that = bad, with some reasonable benefits mixed in. Right now, level seems to have a far greater impact on survivability than defensive stats. Attack something 1-2 levels above your own, and expect to go down fast. Even with a group including healers, the damage multipliers will overcome your defenses much faster than you can be patched up.
On the other hand, the levels and especially the current group level system allow for grouping with players of various skill levels, similar to the City of Heroes "sidekick" system from what I have heard. If the damage multipliers were less extreme, and they were organized into 5-level radius "tiers" (so if you are level 80, 75-85 would be even con) to prevent the drastic difference between something 1 skill level above you and 1 below, I think it would actually be a net positive change.
hate sytem = good, if there are ways for tanks to draw hate, and/or ways for damage dealers to avoid it. Intelligent AI should go for the largest threat first, so the idea is in the right place. But, how can a 1 star offense 5 star defense Teras Kasi Artist use their defensive abilities if targets will completely ignore them and head right for the "squishies"?
I think that one use of /taunt should generate an amount of "hate" similar to a large amount of damage done by a damage dealer. Creature pets intended to be used for tanking should get a /taunt-like special attack. Another solution is to give the nuke/damage dealers special attacks that avoid or attempt to avoid hate. For example, a rifleman under cover using conceal shot should not draw hate unless the special fails some detection check.
icons = fantastic. I can't for the life of me figure out why I see so many people that seem to hate the new icons. I think they look great, and serve to give you a much better idea of what the special/command will do at a glance.
sounds/animations = some of the sounds are weird, some are improved. The weird ones are weird enough that I imagine they are placeholder sounds till some better stuff is recorded. Hopefully the movie-sampled stuff won't go away.
The effects are good looking on some specials, but applied to far too many things. The laser line with railgun-esque circle trails for sniper shot looks good, but why the hell do we need a giant white flash dancing around when we get on a vehicle? Bleeding and fire states now actually look like you are dripping blood or burning up, but lots of melee specials result in various sparkles and circles dancing around in an area for no particular reason. I think they just got a little overzealous and decided to make effects for things that just don't need them.
armor/weapons = great! I've got some high end loot that is going to take some major hits, but certainly not as much as some people. Still, I really feel like making weapon/armor stats fall into a reasonable bell curve will be a major improvement over the current situation where people that get lucky and find a legendary weapon are drastically out of balance with everybody else. I mean, have you seen some of the stats on legendary T21's, pikes, etc? Rediculous.
That being said, I've seen rumors that instead of a fairly natural curve of acceptable damage ranges, some weapons seem to have damage caps that are reportedly fairly easy to achieve with reasonable resources and experimentation and a reasonable slice. This seems artificial compared to the stated aims of the devs in having a diminishing returns system for player stats/etc., so I hope it doesn't pan out.
pets = way too hard to evaluate in the current state. They are clearly *very* buggy and incomplete at the moment, which is a significant concern in and of itself given the CU live date right around the corner.
to sum it all up = I could tolerate the code on TC-Ep3 being pushed to live right now to replace the current unbalanced, non-challenging, group-discouraging system in place now. If they tweak the level system damage multipliers and make sure that the defined roles of their professions are actually achievable (ie., TKA's should be able to tank, etc.) then I will consider the CU to be a great improvement to the overall fun-factor of the game. As a disclaimer I'll say that I am a pro-grouping person because I have more fun that way, but I'm far from against solo play...
I certainly agree with Jopenack's suggestion that you try out stuff on testcenter and see what you think!
I suppose I sound like a complete fanboy when compared to a large quantity of the "sky is falling" stuff on these boards. But, I'm really trying to look at this objectively (not trying to say that Jopenack and others aren't). I am concerned with the way some things stand on TC now, especially considering how little time is left before this all goes live.
I do worry about them taking 5 steps forward with encouraging groups, balancing things out, etc. only to take 4 steps backwards by having the level system changes in particular ruin the skill-based system that I really like, or by completely destroying the viability of combat/crafter and combat/entertainer combinations that can be a lot of fun right now.
So, to quote Kramer, I don't think that overall I'm just a "yes man and lacky, towing the company line"... But I might have glasses a little more rosy-colored than lots of folks here.
level based sytem like that = bad, with some reasonable benefits mixed in. Right now, level seems to have a far greater impact on survivability than defensive stats. Attack something 1-2 levels above your own, and expect to go down fast. Even with a group including healers, the damage multipliers will overcome your defenses much faster than you can be patched up.
On the other hand, the levels and especially the current group level system allow for grouping with players of various skill levels, similar to the City of Heroes "sidekick" system from what I have heard. If the damage multipliers were less extreme, and they were organized into 5-level radius "tiers" (so if you are level 80, 75-85 would be even con) to prevent the drastic difference between something 1 skill level above you and 1 below, I think it would actually be a net positive change.
hate sytem = good, if there are ways for tanks to draw hate, and/or ways for damage dealers to avoid it. Intelligent AI should go for the largest threat first, so the idea is in the right place. But, how can a 1 star offense 5 star defense Teras Kasi Artist use their defensive abilities if targets will completely ignore them and head right for the "squishies"?
I think that one use of /taunt should generate an amount of "hate" similar to a large amount of damage done by a damage dealer. Creature pets intended to be used for tanking should get a /taunt-like special attack. Another solution is to give the nuke/damage dealers special attacks that avoid or attempt to avoid hate. For example, a rifleman under cover using conceal shot should not draw hate unless the special fails some detection check.
icons = fantastic. I can't for the life of me figure out why I see so many people that seem to hate the new icons. I think they look great, and serve to give you a much better idea of what the special/command will do at a glance.
sounds/animations = some of the sounds are weird, some are improved. The weird ones are weird enough that I imagine they are placeholder sounds till some better stuff is recorded. Hopefully the movie-sampled stuff won't go away.
The effects are good looking on some specials, but applied to far too many things. The laser line with railgun-esque circle trails for sniper shot looks good, but why the hell do we need a giant white flash dancing around when we get on a vehicle? Bleeding and fire states now actually look like you are dripping blood or burning up, but lots of melee specials result in various sparkles and circles dancing around in an area for no particular reason. I think they just got a little overzealous and decided to make effects for things that just don't need them.
armor/weapons = great! I've got some high end loot that is going to take some major hits, but certainly not as much as some people. Still, I really feel like making weapon/armor stats fall into a reasonable bell curve will be a major improvement over the current situation where people that get lucky and find a legendary weapon are drastically out of balance with everybody else. I mean, have you seen some of the stats on legendary T21's, pikes, etc? Rediculous.
That being said, I've seen rumors that instead of a fairly natural curve of acceptable damage ranges, some weapons seem to have damage caps that are reportedly fairly easy to achieve with reasonable resources and experimentation and a reasonable slice. This seems artificial compared to the stated aims of the devs in having a diminishing returns system for player stats/etc., so I hope it doesn't pan out.
pets = way too hard to evaluate in the current state. They are clearly *very* buggy and incomplete at the moment, which is a significant concern in and of itself given the CU live date right around the corner.
to sum it all up = I could tolerate the code on TC-Ep3 being pushed to live right now to replace the current unbalanced, non-challenging, group-discouraging system in place now. If they tweak the level system damage multipliers and make sure that the defined roles of their professions are actually achievable (ie., TKA's should be able to tank, etc.) then I will consider the CU to be a great improvement to the overall fun-factor of the game. As a disclaimer I'll say that I am a pro-grouping person because I have more fun that way, but I'm far from against solo play...
I certainly agree with Jopenack's suggestion that you try out stuff on testcenter and see what you think!
I suppose I sound like a complete fanboy when compared to a large quantity of the "sky is falling" stuff on these boards. But, I'm really trying to look at this objectively (not trying to say that Jopenack and others aren't). I am concerned with the way some things stand on TC now, especially considering how little time is left before this all goes live.
I do worry about them taking 5 steps forward with encouraging groups, balancing things out, etc. only to take 4 steps backwards by having the level system changes in particular ruin the skill-based system that I really like, or by completely destroying the viability of combat/crafter and combat/entertainer combinations that can be a lot of fun right now.
So, to quote Kramer, I don't think that overall I'm just a "yes man and lacky, towing the company line"... But I might have glasses a little more rosy-colored than lots of folks here.
hossp
Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:10 pm
#8
well, i have been lurking the forums a good bit, haven't said much lately..but i have been playing cu, more than i'd like to admit..a lot of my cu play has been bugged.. a lot..a HUGE one is how i can't change pov with my mouse..i'm sure , that is a bug, so i won't complain about that...
the way i play the game now is mch/mrifle..the effectiveness of the template is completely destroyed by the cu..the pets cannot tank for rifle, so now instead of have 2 complementary professions, i have ch whch does more damage than it did, but still less than rifle..and rifle is severely nerfed as to what it was..i.e. no aoe, a gimpy conceal shot that stays concealed for one or 2 shots..but that is for the rifle forum i suppose
so far i have seen virtually nothing i liked, and a lot i don't..i DON'T like the lack of pet specials, the variable levels, the inabilty of pets to tank is probably what i dislike the most, as that is what i used them for..i dislike the animations, the new icons, the new specials.
admittedly i'm not big on groups.i like to play solo a lot, and i think that aspect has been removed..i don't feel compelled to make the new system work for me, as many of you will do no matter what they throw at you..i was very content with the old system
so for me CURB=BAD
supersparc
Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:59 pm
#9
So many people skirt the issues with the level system. Its not that it exists. It always has. Thats why solo groups could pull higher missions.
The problem is the emphasis of level above skills. The Devs said they wont take the system out. Good. I like them having the ability to adjust things across all professions. I do support 2 changes to the level system though.
1. Reduce the damage multipliers on offensive and defensive moves.
2. Broaden the con system. Instead of making something +5 levels from you purple, make something +50 levels purple. That way a fully spec'd char could still have a minimal chance to kill Kiin'Dray but zero chance of taking a Krayt.
Those 2 changes would work wonders and seem very reasonable to get in before the CU is released.
The problem is the emphasis of level above skills. The Devs said they wont take the system out. Good. I like them having the ability to adjust things across all professions. I do support 2 changes to the level system though.
1. Reduce the damage multipliers on offensive and defensive moves.
2. Broaden the con system. Instead of making something +5 levels from you purple, make something +50 levels purple. That way a fully spec'd char could still have a minimal chance to kill Kiin'Dray but zero chance of taking a Krayt.
Those 2 changes would work wonders and seem very reasonable to get in before the CU is released.
neinnunb
Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:36 pm
#10
...a HUGE one is how i can't change pov with my mouse..i'm sure , that is a bug, so i won't complain about that...
Have you changed the default keymap back to SWG mode? Look under options, controls, keymap and load the SWG keymap.
why the hell do we need a giant white flash dancing around when we get on a vehicle?
Thats a bug. Effects somehow "stick" to your character and when you get on a bike the effect triggers the last effect that happened around you.
Anyway, Ive been testing CH all day today both PvE and PvP. PvP is buggy but I was able to do some duels with folks kind enough to help me test. First problem is I cant see my pets HAM bars at all. Just take a look at this screenshot and you can see my pets HAM is not there. Obviously a bug. The people who duel my pet can see its HAM once they accept the duel.
The happy news is pets (if left how they are now) can wreak havoc in PvP. I dueled one guy he was unbuffed level 80 and my bolma won the fight with some health to spare (so he said, I can never check the health). I also dueled with another guy and he had a frog buff. (Note: Frog buffs give a 50% bonus to your health and health regen. If you read the mouse-over on the buff it says it is for testing purposes. A regular doctor buff is only 10%. However, you can consider the frog buffs to take into account what kind of total buff you would receive by getting doctor, spice and food buffs all at a time) My pet lost the duel with the buffed person but he lost about half his health before he could defeat my pet. (btw, pet did not incap, it just stopped fighting when it reached zero health). The fight lasted maybe a little over a minute.
So in summary to PvP with pets, they truly are a good asset now. The pets can do allot of damage and best thing is whatever shots the enemy does to your pet is a shot that is not directed at you. I also sent in my pet (although very buggy it was) into a GCW PvP fight outside Anchorhead. Once the imperials saw the huge bolma coming towards them they focused their attention to my pet. That was enough for me to move in and snipe them while they are busy with my pet. It was quite gratifying. They seemed to hate the bolma more than me.
Now my PvE tests. Again its a problem not being able to see my own creatures HAM. I (as a CL80) took some missions, level 79 in Yavin. As I approached the mission I sent in my pet to attack one of the mobs. As they were at it I shot from far away and as soon as I did the mob started coming towards me (hate system kicking in). I can see how this could be a problem for CH. The pet wont be much of a tank if it keeps going after me. If I layed off from fireing my gun the mob would return its attention to my pet. Once I shoot again its back to focusing attention to me. Enrage and Embolden pet did nothing to draw mob focus away from me. (btw I love the icons for those abilities.. looks like a mean bear about to attack you. I like the new icons better than the old ones)
I am all for the hate system but it needs to be toned down a bit and enhanced in a way to make tankers (Pets and PC tanks) have more of a role. Pets need to somehow anger the mobs to a certain point to keep them away from the people who do the damage like Riflemen who have 1 in defence, 5 offence. Dont get me wrong, I think the hateless system we have now is easily exploitable and I do think the hate system will make combat much more interesting, but as it is currently its not going to give tankers like TKA or pets any sort of role. Taunt (although I have not tested it yet in CU) description states that it will make the mob attack you. Rangers also have a rescue special (never worked for me in live) that makes the mob go after them instead but rangers are generally ranged professions I would think and I cant imagine a TKA wanting to spend so many skill points just to get that ability.
Of coarse I suspect the hate system to be tweaked until tanks can be of any value. I have no doubt that is the how it will end up being otherwise combat roles will be non existent and thats one of the key aspects of the CU documents.
Message Edited by neinnunb on 04-23-2005 01:38 AM
neinnunb
Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:38 pm
#11
supersparc wrote:
So many people skirt the issues with the level system. Its not that it exists. It always has. Thats why solo groups could pull higher missions.
The problem is the emphasis of level above skills. The Devs said they wont take the system out. Good. I like them having the ability to adjust things across all professions. I do support 2 changes to the level system though.
1. Reduce the damage multipliers on offensive and defensive moves.
2. Broaden the con system. Instead of making something +5 levels from you purple, make something +50 levels purple. That way a fully spec'd char could still have a minimal chance to kill Kiin'Dray but zero chance of taking a Krayt.
Those 2 changes would work wonders and seem very reasonable to get in before the CU is released.
I agree those two changes would do the trick for sure. Make sure to suggest that (if you havent) in the feedback threads and in the exit poll questionare. I doubt any devs are reading this thread.
Bajbongiovanni
Sat Apr 23, 2005 6:41 am
#12
I hated it, but i played around with all the templates on the frog builder and found a few i like and now i love it, it's great, we even killed an elder, even tho i had to get rezed once we still killed it.
Elainyn_Kabuki
Sat Apr 23, 2005 7:16 am
#13
I think the CU is going to be crappy...no way to monitor pet's health and they sure as heck don't listen to my commands to attack....I get killed off my the stupidiest things for the pet hears the command but in no way does what it's told. So no, I don't see how this could be a good thing. When a giant gubber can incap'd you for your pets don't listen, it's a bad thing. Trust me.
Page 1 of 2