Creature Handler Archive
Thread: On the subject of balancing CH in the CU
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Kitoth
Fri Mar 04, 2005 3:39 pm
#1
Grrrr.... was typing up a very long and detailed response in the thread about supposed changesin the CU, and when I went to submit, it was deleted and I lost it all...
I ended up going off on a tangent about how we might be able to be balanced properly in CU and what we might have to give up to get it. I don't think these comments can be considered breaking NDA since Iam not using inside information, only speculation (since I'm not privy to the CU data).
Basically my point is: In order to be balanced and not overpowered, we can't have CH boosted to be equal to any other combat mastery in terms of damage output- because unless all we can have is MCH, that will never happen. As long as we can pick up additional combat skills aside from CH, we'll be moving into the overpowered territory.
Skillpoints = power in the devs' design for the game. So it wouldn't be fair to have MCH cost more skillpoints without making our power level equal to that of any other combat profession. And I don't think they'll do that. So if they don't increase our skillpoints and don't increase our power to equal any other combat master, then the only way to keep things balanced is to make combat professions themselves bear the burden of heavier skillpoint requirements. Reward people for spending the skillpoints and mastering 1 combat prof, but make the power level evenly distributed so that the halfway point for 'power-level' is at the novice elite combat box. That way you can still mix in a full supporting prof if you prefer, in orderto make up for the difference in abilities.
So how do we as MCHs get to be equal if we don't have the power of other full masteries? If combat professions (through whatever mechanism) cost more skillpoints to master and are worth mastering, thenit could be set up so that you can only be master combatant with minor support skills or a master supporting prof with minor combat skills. If MCH = 1/2 the damage potential as a full combat master, and novice combat profession = 1/2 of master, then 1/2 + 1/2 = 1 elite combat mastery. Obviously we'd still need a big boost to pet damage in order to get to 1/2 of an elite mastery, but I think it would be a worthwhile tradeoff if we can't be 1=1 and want to keep the flexibility/hybrid templates we use now. This would also mean the end of MSwords/MDoc and MRifleman/MCH combos. No more MFencer/TKM either. You could do MSwords/novice doc or MDoc/novice swords. But you could still do MDoc/MCH. Or MCH/MMusician; MCH/novice rifleman or MRifleman/novice CH.
It is a sacrifice from what we have now, but I think it would be balanced.
(Edited to remove extra copy of a paragraph)
Message Edited by Kitoth on 03-04-2005 03:10 PM
jopenack
Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:19 pm
#2
hmmm
good points and its a workable theory, in essense we are the tanks as we once were considered.
considering many would say we have been balanced already and that no further tinkering with us should happen.
I would forego my second mastery of a elite combat profession.
however I would like ch/pets tweaked in return
Pvp pets must be given a defense bonus
Vitality loss removed in both pvp and pve
MCH given defense bonuses in the skill trees (even a master dancer/musician gets +10 defenses lol.)
Devs should fix the pet calling lvl check
Special combat moves for a mounted ch
Some of this some may say isn't relevent to the cu, but it is given the circumstances of where ch stands in the game as of now.
without a second master box we would be able to both pvp/pve effectively, most of our strengths would be in the defense area and I believe the last 2 suggestions might balance us enough to have a group niche again.
All in all its a doable plan Kitoth with or without my suggestions
velm
Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:02 am
#3
I do not consider CH a 'combat' profession. If I am in combat, can I call on my Gurreck? NO. Our pets, as it stands now, would get slaughtered in PVP. We are limited in what we can tame. Level 70 is the max lvl, and only 3 pets that do NOT exceed that lvl. You have to wait 15 seconds, if you are not in city limits, to call a pet. So, if you want to call three pets, you waiting 45 seconds. Combat of any kind will stop the calling of pets.
So, how is it I am a 'combat' profession, if i am in combat without a pet andnot able to call one, until I am not in combat. Sounds like a heck of a combat prof to me. The 'best' pets are usually difficult to get, I have no problem with that, as it makes it a challenge.
If they want to classify me as a 'combat' prof, a few things need to be done:
MORE pets! (why can't I tame the following: mire marauder (ok, 51k HAM, I can KINDA see),merek harvester (12k HAM vs energy, not too overpowering if you ask me), Frenzied Graul (for all purposes, he is not tamable. I understand .01%, yeah, sure, he spawns babies) Young maalkloc plainswalker (not too overpowering there either), Horned voritor lizard? there are more that would be nice to tame.)
Allow us to bring out pets DURING combat. (Otherwise that would be like telling the rifleman if he had his rifle unequiped before combat, and once combat started, he is SOL.)
Get rid of pet Vitality
Some nice extras:
-Flying mounts?
-bonus for fighting while mounted
-allow us to mask scent while on a pet, please
-maybe give us a chance to make aggressive creatures non-aggressive towards us, after all, wouldn't we have some base know how to settle them down? There is nothing I love more than breaking my mask scent on Dath and seeing that I am being stalked by the whole darn forest, from Enraged rancors to purboles.
I see us more as a 'support' prof than a 'combat' prof due to the fact that our pets can do about 550 max, and I as a player can do over 2k dam with my specials as a 0/1/0/2 Rifleman. We can get mindbuffed, they can't. IF we get a Doc to buff them then put them away, it goes away. Our pets are our ONLY source of damage aside from any actual combat prof. I have seen my pets get dropped pretty fast in combat.
I love this prof tons, but as a support role.
Combat_Medic_to_be
Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:26 am
#4
I would hate the SP cost of proffesions to be changed, I think it works very well as things stand. Some proffesions get alot more bang for their buck and this does need to be adressed. Proffesions like BH and commando should be more powerful than a rifleman, or at least more versatile. The problem with Ch is that it is a set of combat skills that can be used with another set at the same time. A TKM/rifleman can fight as one or the other, not both at the same time. Once defense stacking is eliminated this will be an even more noticeable effect.
CH does cost more SP than most other combat proffesions which would suggest that it should be more powerful than most other combat proffesions but because you can use your pets and your other skills at the same time there is a big problem. The reason, in my mind, that ch got nerfed so bad was simply because pets + another combat prof was better than just a combat prof.
I would love CH to be a viable proffesion as a lone combat proffesion (I'd love to be viable as master ranger, ch and the rest of my points in medic) Only thing I can think of is giving a CH some sort of item that allows them to issue special commands to their pets, commands to use special attacks but give pets more than 2 special attacks. When this item is equiped no weapons could be equipped. If you have a weapon equipped instead of the CH item (a whip maybe?) you would not be able to get your pets to use their special attacks, they would just use an auto attack.
There could also be new specials with damage modifiers to make pet dmg output better but only when concentrating on your pets.
A rancor should be a tough oponent but only when its trainer is concentrating on commanding it. If the trainer is concentrating on firing his rifle the pet wont be using it's specials and as such wont be so effective in combat.
This would make CH more viable as a single combat proffesion, could even be made more powerful than a 92 SP mastery, not by much as it only costs 14 SP more, and wouldn't make it overpowering because you would have to concentrate on commanding your pets or using a weapon. Just like you cant use a VK and a T21 at the same time.
CH does cost more SP than most other combat proffesions which would suggest that it should be more powerful than most other combat proffesions but because you can use your pets and your other skills at the same time there is a big problem. The reason, in my mind, that ch got nerfed so bad was simply because pets + another combat prof was better than just a combat prof.
I would love CH to be a viable proffesion as a lone combat proffesion (I'd love to be viable as master ranger, ch and the rest of my points in medic) Only thing I can think of is giving a CH some sort of item that allows them to issue special commands to their pets, commands to use special attacks but give pets more than 2 special attacks. When this item is equiped no weapons could be equipped. If you have a weapon equipped instead of the CH item (a whip maybe?) you would not be able to get your pets to use their special attacks, they would just use an auto attack.
There could also be new specials with damage modifiers to make pet dmg output better but only when concentrating on your pets.
A rancor should be a tough oponent but only when its trainer is concentrating on commanding it. If the trainer is concentrating on firing his rifle the pet wont be using it's specials and as such wont be so effective in combat.
This would make CH more viable as a single combat proffesion, could even be made more powerful than a 92 SP mastery, not by much as it only costs 14 SP more, and wouldn't make it overpowering because you would have to concentrate on commanding your pets or using a weapon. Just like you cant use a VK and a T21 at the same time.
Kitoth
Mon Mar 07, 2005 11:04 am
#5
Good points all.
My initial post was just in response to a post (now deleted) that offered a rumor that skillpoint costs are going up across the board as a way to encourage mastery over dabbling. There's no way our class should cost more skillpoints than it does due to our pathetic power level. Unless we get lots more power, there would be no justification for it. But I doubt the devs will give us that kind of power, so I was trying to think of what they could do to keep us viable at the same skillpoint cost but without overpowering us when combined with other combat skills.
The devs have referred to us as a 'combat' class, but as ithas already been stated here, the inability to call petswhile in combat (as well asother restrictions) makes it kind of hard to be a combat class. Since the great nerf I've adapted to CH as being a supporting class, like medic. As such, I don't want to see us further penalized via skillpoint increases.
In the end, only the devs know what they have up their sleeve, but it's interesting to speculate.
jopenack
Mon Mar 07, 2005 11:28 am
#6
Yea I heard the same rumor a couple months ago, truthfully it may happen but I doubt it will be for all professions. My guess some pro's like melee and ranged may require a 2nd column of the lower tier as we need 2 columns of scout.
The only reason I say this is because why would they lower the BH skill requirements to just raise them later??
Also by adding a 2nd column in the marksman or brawler for an elite would slow any stacking. But its all a guess on my part.
Just got to keep the faith lol.
Elainyn_Kabuki
Mon Mar 07, 2005 11:29 am
#7
I'd have to concur, but for me, CH is my combat profession. I'm a CH/Soon-to-be-Master BE/Some merch...and over the time spent grinding BE (I did it casual for I hate macroing) I felt I was missing something only using CDEF weaps. So I'm tinkering with the idea after mastering BE and get bored of it(I'm too close and spent waay too much time to get there) to drop it for pikeman. I had some pikeman before dropping it for BE....you could say it's the cycle turning back to the starting point. For you could say I'm missing combat myself - to run in and fight along side 'em.
For right now my biggest thrill is sampling critters and hoping they don't get too riled. I also oft times rely on a friend with a combat profession to take the heat for I'm sorry but even two BE'd 35's can't take the heat of a nest full of some of those critters, and I'm no help. Something's got to give. For I've been a MCH for over a year now and the only reason I won't give it up is 'cause I love my pets. Buzzard-Bait and the whole crew.
velm
Mon Mar 07, 2005 4:44 pm
#8
Well, the tough thing is, we are not really a full combat class. I can see how people say a rifleman/TK cannot use the same weapons but as a CH, we can use the T21 and a pet. But the thing about the other 'true' combat professions is that they get bonuses off of each other, take the Pistoleer/Fencer Dodge bonus. Granted, the Pistoleer/Fencer cannot use that DE-10 and that Sword of Death, but the other benefits outweigh alot of factors.
What profession do have to go up first? Scout. How much combat is in Scout? Traps against Creatures, and that is it. We have to go up two branches.
While I CAN play the role of devil's advocate and say 'But, as a Master of two combat professions you can use them both at the same time. That is overpowering, especially with the use of BE creatures.'
That is a very valid point, we CAN use both a pet and a weapon. However, we have so many limitations on the pets, is it as viable as it looks on paper? What 'bonuses' do we get? anything on dodge or any other defenses? no. So, we get NO viable skills that aid us in combat other than traps, that might, or might not work against creatures (I say this, because sometimes they do not effect some high end creatures). I can tell you now, those bonuses are really nice when combined just right. But those are things we will not see due to what our requirements are. But, I still have not answered about the fact that we can use 'two weapons' at once. Sure, we sure can. But, one of them, the pet, can do several things:
Poof out of existance - had this happen about 4 times the other night
Randomly run off and attack stuff - due to this latest and greatest upgrade, the ferocity levels turned them rabid.
Get incapped - yes, folks, it does happen.
None of those things have happened to my T21 or DE-10. That is, my DE-10 NEVER poofed out of existance, or started shooting at swirl prongs for no reason.
Another thing that I love about the CH prof is how our ENTIRE profession earns xp at about the same rate as Combat xp. You have to plan it just right to get xp. If the pet goes down in a fight, no xp for the creature. Does that happen with 'regular' combat? No. If I am working on my rifles and it goes to 0 condition, I equip my other one AND at the end of the battle get full xp for it. The difference here is that, if a pet goes down in combat, we CANNOT call another one out, AND we do NOT get any CH xp for that.
So, when you look at the 'big picture' we are not all that much of a 'true' combat prof, such as 'Rifleman.'
What profession do have to go up first? Scout. How much combat is in Scout? Traps against Creatures, and that is it. We have to go up two branches.
While I CAN play the role of devil's advocate and say 'But, as a Master of two combat professions you can use them both at the same time. That is overpowering, especially with the use of BE creatures.'
That is a very valid point, we CAN use both a pet and a weapon. However, we have so many limitations on the pets, is it as viable as it looks on paper? What 'bonuses' do we get? anything on dodge or any other defenses? no. So, we get NO viable skills that aid us in combat other than traps, that might, or might not work against creatures (I say this, because sometimes they do not effect some high end creatures). I can tell you now, those bonuses are really nice when combined just right. But those are things we will not see due to what our requirements are. But, I still have not answered about the fact that we can use 'two weapons' at once. Sure, we sure can. But, one of them, the pet, can do several things:
Poof out of existance - had this happen about 4 times the other night
Randomly run off and attack stuff - due to this latest and greatest upgrade, the ferocity levels turned them rabid.
Get incapped - yes, folks, it does happen.
None of those things have happened to my T21 or DE-10. That is, my DE-10 NEVER poofed out of existance, or started shooting at swirl prongs for no reason.
Another thing that I love about the CH prof is how our ENTIRE profession earns xp at about the same rate as Combat xp. You have to plan it just right to get xp. If the pet goes down in a fight, no xp for the creature. Does that happen with 'regular' combat? No. If I am working on my rifles and it goes to 0 condition, I equip my other one AND at the end of the battle get full xp for it. The difference here is that, if a pet goes down in combat, we CANNOT call another one out, AND we do NOT get any CH xp for that.
So, when you look at the 'big picture' we are not all that much of a 'true' combat prof, such as 'Rifleman.'
raynedog
Mon Mar 07, 2005 8:52 pm
#9
No way are we are eally gonna have the "is CH a true combat class" debate again?
I guess my view of it is, are we built to break things and kill things or make things and fix things?
One is combat and one is crafter. I've never crafted a pet, and I've never fixed a pet, but I sure have broken and killed a lot of stuff with my CH skills, so combat it is.
I guess my view of it is, are we built to break things and kill things or make things and fix things?
One is combat and one is crafter. I've never crafted a pet, and I've never fixed a pet, but I sure have broken and killed a lot of stuff with my CH skills, so combat it is.
cleekjc
Tue Mar 08, 2005 12:16 pm
#10
Remember you CAN use the defenses from fencer and pistoller as a Master any combat profession, Only TK is limited to its defenses being tied to one weapon............or no weapon
Llandros
Tue Mar 08, 2005 2:51 pm
#11
doesnt work for melee ch's tough, we wind up with the bf just as much as everyone else, and the buffs and composite are still near manditory (i have gone rancor hunting unbuffede wearing ubese and mabari(random mix bought off the bazaar bakc whne i was starting out) was a lot of fun but sadly with the present state of the game if i wnat to have and fun vs highish end content i find like everyone else, i need composite and buffs (or ubese and buffs if itsguaranteed critters only)
velm
Tue Mar 08, 2005 3:18 pm
#12
True velm
But from personal experience I can say this out of all my friends/guild/city residents everyone except the other ch's there always have huge battlefatigue at the end of they're hunts/battles except the ch class.
we have pets some with armor and unless something wierd occurs or you make a mistake an experienced ch has alot of resistance and protection than many others in the form of pets.
I played this game for over a year before I ever got a buff and almost two years before I ever bought and wore comp armor with my mch character. How many combat classes can say that lol. and yes I always am doing some sort of combat with my pets on a daily basis in pve.
we are combat just in a totally different catagory
I agree with this last line 100%. In fact, if I could, I would say, 110%. I never meant to imply we were a 'craftin' or 'non-combat' prof. Just different. I would call us a 'Support' class. 'Support' does not mean any less of a combat class than the traditional 'assault' guys, but different in its nature. The guy with the M60, in RL fills a 'Support' role on the battlefield, as we do in the game. We can keep things occupied and place states on them with our pets as an example. As I have stated before elsewhere, I can walk on Dant and many other places unbuffed and unarmored and do many things other classes cannot do. However, we DO have our limitations. Which I have pointed out above. Many of them are what I would call 'bugs', which hinder us greatly. Pets Poofing, stuck in mountainsides, stuck in combat, attacking other things, and so on. There are other little things that should be addressed. The waiting to call pets, and not being able to call them during battle. More pets would be nice as well. As it stands now, I rely greatly on my pets, when they are attacking Paralopes or other things, that throws my MCH side out the window. I would just like to see more done with us to make us more effective in combat. Nothing too extreme, but just make a few changes here and there to even it out.
Yes, used effectivelly, we can add quite a bit, but there is much room for improvement. It is this room for improvement that really should be addressed if we are to be compared to a 'normal' combat prof.
But from personal experience I can say this out of all my friends/guild/city residents everyone except the other ch's there always have huge battlefatigue at the end of they're hunts/battles except the ch class.
we have pets some with armor and unless something wierd occurs or you make a mistake an experienced ch has alot of resistance and protection than many others in the form of pets.
I played this game for over a year before I ever got a buff and almost two years before I ever bought and wore comp armor with my mch character. How many combat classes can say that lol. and yes I always am doing some sort of combat with my pets on a daily basis in pve.
we are combat just in a totally different catagory
I agree with this last line 100%. In fact, if I could, I would say, 110%. I never meant to imply we were a 'craftin' or 'non-combat' prof. Just different. I would call us a 'Support' class. 'Support' does not mean any less of a combat class than the traditional 'assault' guys, but different in its nature. The guy with the M60, in RL fills a 'Support' role on the battlefield, as we do in the game. We can keep things occupied and place states on them with our pets as an example. As I have stated before elsewhere, I can walk on Dant and many other places unbuffed and unarmored and do many things other classes cannot do. However, we DO have our limitations. Which I have pointed out above. Many of them are what I would call 'bugs', which hinder us greatly. Pets Poofing, stuck in mountainsides, stuck in combat, attacking other things, and so on. There are other little things that should be addressed. The waiting to call pets, and not being able to call them during battle. More pets would be nice as well. As it stands now, I rely greatly on my pets, when they are attacking Paralopes or other things, that throws my MCH side out the window. I would just like to see more done with us to make us more effective in combat. Nothing too extreme, but just make a few changes here and there to even it out.
Yes, used effectivelly, we can add quite a bit, but there is much room for improvement. It is this room for improvement that really should be addressed if we are to be compared to a 'normal' combat prof.
jopenack
Tue Mar 08, 2005 3:28 pm
#13
actually Llandros
your wrong I was a swordsman for 3 months with ch, its all about knowing the distance to hit without being hit lol. using your pets as a shield in front of you and keeping just withing your strike range works fine.
remember specials reach out farther than the attack meter will tell you.
yea you take a few hits here and there but I would hunt mokks all week long and visit a cantina once a week.
melee works just as well with ch as ranged.
no offense is intended but in the ch profession you really have to learn the system and use it to your advantage.
again no other profession here can go up against mokks, force mystics and most other things unbuffed and unarmored as an experienced ch can. they wouldn't last 10 seconds lol. other than rifleman but if the conceal shot breaks what then? run an hope to get away.
sure even the most experienced and dilegent ch can make an error and visit the cloner but again we are in a class all of our own.
Truthfully if anyone here has seen the things I have said for a very long time you should know I have been a rather disgruntled ch with our being nerfed and what not lol. I have no love for the decisions made since launch and my faith in the curb is lacking. but we should also be treated as a combat class during this with the realisation that we are a different sort of combat class than the others and whats good for them may not be good for us.
Message Edited by jopenack on 03-08-2005 05:29 PM
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