Creature Handler Archive
Thread: Koa, let Devs know that pets definitely can NOT take on CL 80 mob
However, the core "problem" so to speak is that the CU's new profession structure is such that mix/matching of professions is the goal... the devs *want* you to take enough combat skills to hit level 80 if you plan to take on upper-tier PvE content, otherwise we wouldn't have levels in the first place. You are rewarded for commitment to combat.
Therefore, CH can't be as powerful as a level 80 on its own (and so we will probably never control 80 pet levels), it's simply not fair to allow that. If you think about it, a pure MCH, level 54 character, is actually likely to be *more* powerful than any other CL 54 combat character. Our CL 70 pet will dominate the opponent by 16 levels, and would likely result in a quick death for our opponent.
Realistically though, we're most likely talking about our profession's relative power at CL 80. Someone who took Master Bounty Hunter/Master Carbineer, for example, works excellently with all facets of their skills meshing together. Their BH specials work with their carbines, and they have the carbine mods/certs that make this a deadly combo. CH is unique in that our profession is totally seperate from any other combat profession. We're using two totally seperate skill sets. So, our pets need to be able to do *something* to fulfill a role, because our other combat profession (if we have one) does not get a direct benefit from our CH skills. My rancor does not make my rifle faster or more accurate, nor does it give me more rifle specials to choose from. My rifle skills are the *same* as a CL 54 rifleman. My CH abilities (and thus my pets) must make up the difference.
That's why I'm hoping we can do something to see improvement in the "Hate" system for us so we can have pets that tank (the #1 issue), and I'm hoping that the new BE system (and the rumored proposals rumbling from FanFest that say we will be able to tailor our pets one direction or another stat-wise) will help us fulfill the goal of making CH fully worth the investment. I'm waiting to hear a bit more about what was said at FanFest and see if I can get some details on what kind of future plans we should expect.
Pets can't take a lvl 80 alone, but a MCH/any other combat profession should have no trouble taking lvl 80. I'mMCH/MBH/root line in pistols and don't have many problems, with either one high level pet or two mid level pets.
The thing is CH playstyle has changed. Pets can't just sit and tank anymore (unless you've got a doc handy to buff your pets, even then it's risky), instead pets are more like giant furry (or scaley) DoTs now. I believe there was a report from fanfest somewhere that they no longer wanted pets to be easy meatshields, so I guess we're stuck with it.
Ko-aIri wrote:
Therefore, CH can't be as powerful as a level 80 on its own (and so we will probably never control 80 pet levels), it's simply not fair to allow that. If you think about it, a pure MCH, level 54 character, is actually likely to be *more* powerful than any other CL 54 combat character. Our CL 70 pet will dominate the opponent by 16 levels, and would likely result in a quick death for our opponent.
Yep, and that's why they should change the way you can handle pets.
A good way would be that if you are just MCH, the max pet lvl you can have is lvl65 for example. Butthe higher you lvl is, the higher the max lvl of you pet can be, up till lvl80. So that way, a lvl80 char will be able to use 'weapons' (the pets) that match their lvl, the same way a rifleman can use rifles that mach their lvl. Cos we are a combat prof like another. A rifleman uses rifles, a CH uses pets. I agree that pets can be a little less effective than a rifle, because otherwise everyone would become a CH. But the way it is now kinda sucks...
Spir4 wrote:
Ko-aIri wrote:
Therefore, CH can't be as powerful as a level 80 on its own (and so we will probably never control 80 pet levels), it's simply not fair to allow that. If you think about it, a pure MCH, level 54 character, is actually likely to be *more* powerful than any other CL 54 combat character. Our CL 70 pet will dominate the opponent by 16 levels, and would likely result in a quick death for our opponent.
Yep, and that's why they should change the way you can handle pets.
A good way would be that if you are just MCH, the max pet lvl you can have is lvl65 for example. Butthe higher you lvl is, the higher the max lvl of you pet can be, up till lvl80. So that way, a lvl80 char will be able to use 'weapons' (the pets) that match their lvl, the same way a rifleman can use rifles that mach their lvl. Cos we are a combat prof like another. A rifleman uses rifles, a CH uses pets. I agree that pets can be a little less effective than a rifle, because otherwise everyone would become a CH. But the way it is now kinda sucks...
To play devil's advocate, if you want to call the pet a 'weapon' then a creature handler gets two weapons, the pet and their own weapon. No other character gets two weapons. Also, a rifleman's weapon stops at cl 54 I believe, so hopefully they won't make our pets like everyone elses weapons. 
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have the level raised to 80, I still have my gaping recluse in my datapad hoping I'll be able to call it again someday.
Angamarth wrote:
To play devil's advocate, if you want to call the pet a 'weapon' then a creature handler gets two weapons, the pet and their own weapon. No other character gets two weapons. Also, a rifleman's weapon stops at cl 54 I believe, so hopefully they won't make our pets like everyone elses weapons.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have the level raised to 80, I still have my gaping recluse in my datapad hoping I'll be able to call it again someday.
To play Devil's Advocate to you, our pets don't do upwards of 1000 DPS like some CL 54 weapons do, such as rifles.
AngusMacGregor wrote:
To play Devil's Advocate to you, our pets don't do upwards of 1000 DPS like some CL 54 weapons do, such as rifles.
When you are having trouble with your pet taking on a lvl 80 MOB are you grouped with your pet?
i have to wonder if the dev was refering to pre pub 17, at that time pets would not take ungodly damage from higher lvlmobs...
when pub 17 came live, pets now experience the damage multipliers and often take 10x the damage...prior to pub 17, what the dev said was true..in fact i could/did take may lvl 109's with a lvl 60 and a few bacta tosses...pub 17 killed that quickly, almost as quicky as a 109 will kill my pet now..lol
Well, if you use your high power weapons like a CL70 BE pet, it does work. 1 good BE pet can solo an enraged rancor (elite 80)when grouped with a CL80. I did the test with my BE CL69. It also held aggro with a CL80 MRM doing sniper shot (well, the first battle he shot before the pet hit, but the pet was able to take aggro away from him after a few hits, the second battle he waited til after it landed a few blows and it was fine). Pet lostaround 2k health. He was so impressed he wanted to buy my rancor from me even tho I said I can make others like it. We weregonna take on nightsisterstalkers (elite 84) buthewanted to try with just him and the pet so he's gotta wait til the one I made him gets full grown. I'm 100% positive we had nothing to fear. I'm hoping BE pets don't get nerfed....
I have not run this test yet though I will. I don't think a CL 60 can take a CL 80, but remember the devs will probably tell you *A* level 80, not several. You can't send your level 66 rhoa kwi guardian (or whatever) into a group of 3 level 79 pirates and expect it to live. Heck most level 80 players would not live through that. You are not supposed to under the new game design. You are equal to ONE thing of your level, not three. I could not tell from the description of your tests whether you were doing one-on-one fights or just sending the pet at a lair with multiple blue cons.
So I am not sure how you guys did these tests, but... the PROPER way to do this test is to kill off all but one level 80 from the lair, or pull one level 80 out of the pack somehow, or get one alone somehow... and THEN have your pet solo it, one-on-one. This should be easy enough to do. You can single-pull sharnaffs on Corellia with pets... I do it all the time. Single pull and quickly kill the first one with your pet. Then wait for the pet to heal. And now, when there is only one left and thus no chance of an "add" from other enemies, have your level 60 pet fight the level 80 sharnaff. Hit the stopwatch. See how long it lasts. Record how much Health the sharnaff had when your pet went down. /bug it, then report it here.
That's the only way we're going to demonstrate they are wrong. If you just send your pet into a gang of level 80s the devs will ignore you, because you're not supposed to be able to do that anymore.
ON TO PET LEVELS, which is an important issue... Koa is right... a level 54 CH would be uber with level 70 pets, relative to say a level 54 of any single combat prof. BUT... nobody does that and the devs clearly want you to dual-combat-class, as they had the design.
Here's an idea, maybe we can take to the devs. Have the maximum controllable pet level go up to 80, which is maximum character level. BUT... have it so that you can only control something that is the MINIMUM of your level vs. your CH control level. To demonstrate, some examples:
MCH, no combat. Max control level = 80. Your level = 54. Min(80,54) = 54. You can't call or control or tame pets over level 54.
MTKA, novice CH. Max control level = 15. Your level = 62 or something. Min(15,62)=15. Your can't call or control things over level 15.
MTKA, MCH. Max control level = 80. Your level = 80. Min(80,80) = 80. Now you can control level 80 or below pets.
The idea is, CH skill would control your max potential, which cannot be exceeded, but Character Level would determine what you can control right now. This would allow level 80 CHs to control level 80 pets (reasonable) while restricting level 54 CHs to level 54 and below pets (IMO, also reasonable) -- i.e. your pet is limited to the same as your level (assuming enough CH skill). Since everything ELSE is tied to your level (including the XP you gain for CH), they may as well just finish the job, IMO.
C
Ko-aIri wrote:
...Therefore, CH can't be as powerful as a level 80 on its own (and so we will probably never control 80 pet levels), it's simply not fair to allow that. If you think about it, a pure MCH, level 54 character, is actually likely to be *more* powerful than any other CL 54 combat character. Our CL 70 pet will dominate the opponent by 16 levels, and would likely result in a quick death for our opponent...
As I pointed out in my post, that's the rationale that the Devs used. However,as I also pointed out in my post, that'sthe logic that makes me want to scream. The logic is flawed. How is it that no one sees this? I'll explain again. I'm not going to try to be brief this time, so bear with me.
Yes, apure CL 54CH is more powerful than any other CL 54 combat profession. And, yes,it's notintendedthat anyonefunction in combat as a pure, stand-aloneCL 54 profession. Fine. Except that once you combine CH with any other combat profession, CHbecomes much weaker than any other combat profession.
When you combine two combat professions, you become CL 80. Every other profession EXCEPT Creature Handler is then able to function in combat at that level. To repeat myself, as a CL 80 Master Pistoleer using only pistoleer skills, I can solo anything my level and lower. In fact, I've successfullysoloed CL 81. Even more, I can solomore than one mob at a time if they'rejust a couple of lower levels than me. We know that our pets can not take on CL 80 mobs, and the only way they can take on more than one mob at a time is if that mob is several levels lower. This is fair?
So, if as a Master Pistoleer I can solo CL 80 mobs and multiple lower level mobs, logic dictates that I should also be able to do the sameas a Master Creature Handler. BTW, from in-testing I know for a fact that I can also solo CL 80 mobs as a CL 80 rifleman or carbineer. The fact of the matter is that as an MCH,because my highest level pet is CL 66, the highest level that I can solo is maybe CL 66 and more realistically a couple of levels lower than that. This is fair?
Now, let's look again at that argument that a pure CL 54 CH is more powerful than any other CL 54 combat profession. When are you EVER going to have a pure CL 54 CH pitted against any other pure CL 54 combat profession? Well, that's just by way ofcomparison you say. Ok, by way of comparison, lets pit a CL 80 CH - using just CH skills - against any other CL 80 combat profession. For that matter, let's pit a CL 80 CH against anything in the CL 70-80 range. Who's going to win? This is fair?
Well, you say,combat professions are supposed to complement each other - there really is no such thing as a pure CL 80 profession. Except that once you combine elite combat professions, the reality is that those professions do function at CL 80. Other than CH that is. As you indicated, Koa, CH does not really complement or add anything to any other combat profession. Oh, sure, our dps increases a bit. My pets versus a CL 80 mob do about 70 pts of damage per hit on the average (and I think I'm being generous). Woohoo.
So, whatever rationale that CH is balanced with other professions that the Devs want to throw at us, don't let it be that pile of horse pucky that a CL 54 CH is more powerful than any other CL 54 profession. It's not fair that a CL 54 CH is more powerful thanother CL 54 professions, but it is fair that any other CL 80 combat profession is stronger than a CL 80 CH???