Creature Handler Archive
Thread: Creature Handler *TOP 5 ISSUES* (New! September 4, 2005)
Ko-aIri wrote:
Ok folks, here's the draft of the new Top 5 issues list, compiled from the info-gathering thread and other things I've seen posted since Publish 21 went Live. I apologize for the length of time it took to compile this, but I wanted to see what people thought after they adjusted to the new system so I waited a bit, then I got caught up with getting ready to move.
Creature Handler Top 5 Issues (September 2005)
1. Pet Call/Store Timers
Since the Combat Upgrade, weapon switching delays have been removed. With Publish 22, vehicle call timers have been removed. However, it still takes 15 seconds to call a pet. Thus, Creature Handler's weapons are still unable to be "equipped" for 15 seconds, and it is much more difficult to travel with our weapon out constantly, especially compounded with poor pet speed (see issue #3, below).
If a Master Creature Handler wishes to use 3 pets, it takes at least 45 seconds to call them if you're not in a city. As one relevant "for example" as to why this is a problem, try hunting a player bounty as a Master Bounty Hunter/Master Creature Handler. By the time your pets are called and grouped, your target has run far, far away.
It's also a big issue in group settings, because in addition to the fact that our pets take up a spot in a group (see issue #4, below) so are normally unwelcome to begin with, it takes us minimally 15 seconds to be ready for an engagement while everyone else has had 15 seconds to get started. Creature handler, as a profession, is "left behind" in group activity.
The original reason given as to why the call delay timer was introduced back when it was first put in the game was to avoid people swapping out pets mid-combat and essentially exploiting their entire datapad to solo content. If the store timer following combat is not removed (but still reduced please), this will prevent any exploiting of that nature while still allowing creatures to be called instantly.
Solution: Remove the delay timer on calling pets and reduce the storage timer to 30 seconds following combat. This will enhance Creature Handler gameplay tremendously while not allowing exploits of pet rotation during combat situations.
Ko-A--
My comment here would be this...It is not considered an exploit for any other combat professional to change his arsenal of weapons during combat. My master pistoleer husband has a bunch of pistols on his hotbar and changes them at will while he fights. How is this different from me changing out my critters? They are MY "guns".
I cannot see why I should be penalized and he is not. I should be allowed to call my pets as freely as he is allowed to change out his guns, unless there is something else at work here that I do not understand.
MotherSlip wrote:
Ko-A--
My comment here would be this...It is not considered an exploit for any other combat professional to change his arsenal of weapons during combat. My master pistoleer husband has a bunch of pistols on his hotbar and changes them at will while he fights. How is this different from me changing out my critters? They are MY "guns".
I cannot see why I should be penalized and he is not. I should be allowed to call my pets as freely as he is allowed to change out his guns, unless there is something else at work here that I do not understand.
Lots of reasons.... including:
- Guns don't fire if the owner is incapped.
- They aren't just our guns, they are our health and armour, etc
- it would be seriously unbalancing. You could solo any single mob in the game by just rotating when health is low
- Probably others but can't think of them offhand.
Kinda silly that a player can out-move a pet.
Put an Olympic runner in a barren field with a hungry Lion, I don't think the Lion is going to jog slow and stare around. The runner would be lunch!
Remove Fleet Footed and let pets have speed based on their breed.
Also, the HATE issue is stupid. If a robber is being attacked by a police dog in the distance, that robber is not going to ignore the dog and go attack the officer. Come on...get real here!
Message Edited by BlueGlowy on 09-05-2005 04:31 PM
Koa, have to still strongly disagreewith you
1. " ... Our pets *have* to be grouped to have a chance of surviving high-level content. Most of the time we can't use our pets when doing high-end PvE since even with the new system, a CL 80 player will be in virtually every case superior to a CL 70 (or less) pet, so most groups will not want to accomodate the CH's pet.
This results in an inability for the CH to monitor their pet's health easily, and of course the pet does not benefit from the group level bonus, thus dying quicker and being rendered more useless. This is especially the case if the Creature Handler is using multiple pets, such as CL 35 x2 or CL 23 x3. Such pets perish very rapidly ungrouped. "
Then you tell me thatplaying in groupsisn't a problem. If grouping isn't an issue than what's it doingin the top 5 Issue list?
2. Really? You stop your groups to go tame a baby? It ever take you 10-15 mins to tame a baby? Or an hour as one poster experienced? And Focus? You've missed part of what I'm getting at. I shouldn't have to join a group to earn nearly a million xp to open a training slot for my pet (see my next point).
3.While Iagree that learning anability from a pet might be based on the number of kills, the jury is still out on that. Even if true, so? Now I'm reduced to going out and killing 400 plus yard trash? Woohoo, that sounds like a lot of fun. You don't see that there's a problem if the best way for me, as an MCH, to learn an ability is to mow down endless numbers of kooks and gnorts?
But it's not just about learning the pet's ability. That voritor I'm trying to learn the L2 Bleeding from thatI mentioned? Well, I now have rolled it over 3 times, it has 42 training points, and it still hasn't opened its first training slot. That represents over 780,000 xp and counting. What if this were a pet that I wanted to keep and wanted to teach it 4 abilities (or however many abilities it can learn)? That's a freakin lot of xp to have to earn for just ONE pet.
4. I didn't say reduce xp requirements to ridiculously low levels. The requirements are so high now that they can be adjusted to reasonable levels without CH becoming the FOTM. And if they're going to nerf CH because our CL 70 pets (or whatever level) become too powerful, they're going to nerf it regardless of xp requirements. Because, eventually, people are going to have very high level pets with a full set of abilities, and if the pet is too powerful it won't matter how long or quick it took to get those abililties.
5.So, if I want to earn xp I have to go to Dantooine so that I can get in a group to earn xp? But forget that, since that's a personal issue of mine (being "forced" to go to one place for whatever reason). Again, I didn't say anything about making the game "extremely "casual-play" friendly and dramatically reduce the XP requirements".I do maintain, however, that the xp requirements areabsurdly high for both the casual player and the power gamer and that a reasonable balance needs to be reached.
Yes, there is always going to be a problemwith any multi-player game with finding a balance between casual gamers and power gamers, between solo play and group play. Right now, though, there's a great imbalance, and there's a lot of room for adjustment. Being a casual player or being able to play solo should be viable options.
I'm gonna respond to as many points again as I can hit... and realize I'm not trying to pick apart what you're saying as any kind of personal attack or anything, as I said before I'm going to be devil's advocate with a dash of my personal opinions so feel free to rip up what I say.
I have the utmost respect for your opinion.1. I never said grouping isn't a problem. I said that using a group to level pets generally isn't a problem, because your pet gains more XP while not being grouped (because of the level difference) than being grouped so they won't likely be members of the group of 8 anyways. I said high level content without pets being grouped is a problem. Grinding on pikets/bols/etc. barely ever gets your pet attacked if you're in a group with other players. Things like the Corvette, Death Watch Bunker, krayt hunting, quests, etc. where you're actually having your pet take a critical role in your combat ability are where the problem with grouping shines through, and that's why it's in the Top 5.
2. Yes, if I honestly stumbled across a rare "must-have" pet while grinding I would stop the group. But the chances of that in my experience are virtually nil (especially since most grind groups on my server run out of the Mining Outpost on Dantooine) and worst-case scenario the group would proceed on without me and I'd catch up. And while I've never personally taken more than 10 minutes to tame a single baby post-21, I also come prepared with +25 BE clothing and now almond munchies... which does have a dramatic effect on taming times. Again though, you have to choose between the group and the tame, which I don't think is unreasonable. It's akin to a group member saying they need to go hit a vendor for armor/weapons mid-lair. That's fine, but they're missing out on the XP until they get back.
3. No, it's not 100% proven that kills is the key to unlocking a skill, but it certainly seems to fit the data and I personally think it's valid. My point there was that grinding isn't fun in any case for most of the people playing this game, so given the choice between one-hitting 400 chubas or grinding for several hours on 400 pikets, the chubas would be the best use of your time (since it would presumably take far less time). It's not fun. No grinding in this game is. I'll be the first to tell you I'm a huge advocate of quests to level, unfortunately that's not how SWG is structured (except a good bit of the pilot professions). SWG is a grind to level, then you actually play the game IMHO. I do find it a problem that the best way as an MCH to learn pet abilities is to kill hundreds of creatures ad naseum. Unfortunately, at least at this time, that's what we have to do. I don't see them putting in a quest-based leveling system for MCHs considering they haven't done that for anything yet so far.
4. I realize you didn't give a number, but honestly what do you adjust the levels to? Half of what they are now? 75%? I guess if you gave me a number what you're thinking of it might help to put us on the same page. As I said, in one 2-2.5 hour piket grind session I rolled over my CL 68 ancient reptilian flyer 5 times. With XP rates lower, I'd probably be completely done with the pet.
My personal belief is that because of their attempt to normalize (nerf) combat XP gain overall (which, you have to admit, is totally absurd... you can level an entire elite combat profession in 2-3 hours or less with the current XP rate) which resulted in a huge community backlash and subsequent apology from the producers (and a quick reversion to the old, high-gain system), any request to lower XP costs in any way from any profession in this game will be met with a stone wall. Not to say we can't try, but I'm anticipating it's not going to even be considered.
5. You don't have to go to Dantooine, but post-CU the focus on XP gain is definitely grouping. I hate to use the example, but Jedi found this out the hard way when it became obvious that solo play was no longer an option for XP gain following the CU. I personally found this to be one of the stupidest things about the post-CU environment (an entire class that was previously encouraged in every way to remain solo and hidden while leveling now being forced into group situations and public lightsaber-wielding just to be able to advance) but it's obviously the intent given the subsequent visibility/group changes made to accomodate grouped Jedi grinders.
I think there needs to be a way that grinding/leveling/whatever you want to call it is made more appealing (and possible) to a solo/casual gamer again, but right now that's not the case for any profession. And like I said, with group play, you can level a pet quite quickly, so there's an obvious development problem with how to keep that balance.
I guess the big thing is, does this issue replace another Top 5 list issue for you, and for many other people? And what solutions would you propose? I personally don't have a clue what to ask for here as far as adjusted XP rates, so I'd definitely need community input on this one. And what do we bump off the Top 5 list if this really needs to make the list?
Ko-aIri wrote:
1. I never said grouping isn't a problem. I said that using a group to level pets generally isn't a problem, because your pet gains more XP while not being grouped (because of the level difference) than being grouped so they won't likely be members of the group of 8 anyways. I said high level content without pets being grouped is a problem. Grinding on pikets/bols/etc. barely ever gets your pet attacked if you're in a group with other players. Things like the Corvette, Death Watch Bunker, krayt hunting, quests, etc. where you're actually having your pet take a critical role in your combat ability are where the problem with grouping shines through, and that's why it's in the Top 5.
Something I've heard and cannot confirm, but thought it might be good to bring up/ask here...
Pets not grouped with you give jedi in the group visibility. Is this true? If it is, then I can see where this would be another reason why pets should get their own slots or another way to monitor their health, etc. Pets just aren't welcome if you're grinding with jedi guildees since they can't be in the group due to taking up a valuable group member space, but can't stay out of the group because it'd give the jedi vis. Please set me straight on this one!
^^^
I'm pretty sure not - I can just see my Gurreck going up to a BH and saying "psst..... got a contract for you...." He'd jump out of his skin!
Skadoink wrote:
^^^
I'm pretty sure not - I can just see my Gurreck going up to a BH and saying "psst..... got a contract for you...." He'd jump out of his skin!
LOL Yeah why would my Blurrg give a Jedi vis when wild ones can't. I've heard a few people mention it but not sure if its true
I can't see why a pet (which is not an NPC) would affect visiblity, but, you never can tell with this bunch of crazy devs, who routinely do stupid things, call it "working as intended", then stealth fix it two pubs down the road.
Tazz routinely flashlight grinds now in a group that includes a fellow MCH, who uses pets. Tazz does not (pets cut into that precious flashlight XP) and has not yet been harrassed by any BHs, but who can say if he's not on the terms already? Sio the alt can't, he's grinding Invest III now, so it will be a while before he can monitor the terms.
BINGO!!!!!!!
Right on the money!!!
Let's hope we get some attention from the DEV's on this now.
Well, Koa, we are definitely at loggershead here and that certainly wasn't my intention. From more than a few posts I've read in other threads, I know that I'm not the only one frustrated withxp requirements, and not everyone is finding it easy to level up their pets.
Be that as it may, you have convinced me that it's pointless in pursuing it (not with you, with devs). I do have a few thoughts on ways to adjust the xp requirements (which I think I'll post anyway in a new thread), but I think that you are right in that the devs would pay little heed. I wouldn't replace any of the current ones with one that, I have to admit, would probably be rejected out of hand. We'd probably have a better chance of getting those flying mounts that drop nukes than...hmmm. I don't suppose....
BlueGlowy wrote:
Frankly, the given excuse (in this thread) of there being BE related data (genetic info) stored with a tamed pet doesn't ring true with me as a problem, at least not a profession-specific problem (maybe as an infrastructure or game design problem, butthat's a whole different topic). If they wanted to save bandwidth or memory or server CPUcycles.... try fixing things likeremoving thatsystem message every single player gets every single time they use a shuttle or starport terminal.... The one that tells you that you can't see that (Travel) window anymore because it's no longer available. That's justone example of completely wasted infrastructureresources. I'm sure there are many others.
In any case, pets should be freely sellable/tradeable. To work towards master, then have to spend a day at a starport /shout Pets for sale - where either you sell a L10 mount, some silly bunny to an entertainer, or L11+ pets to *other*CHsis just silly.
Weather its a problem that lies with the infrastructure or just the over all design of the game dosent matter. All that matters is that it IS a problem that directly affects CHs, which does in factmake it a profession specific problem. Im not excusing it by any means I personally think it sucks that we caint store more pets, but I at least try to understand why the devs dont give it to us instead of blindly complaining about it.
Yes they could remove these things but that still wouldn't help us very much. These are more than likely functions, which means the same line of code is used every time you get one of those messages. Anyone who knows anything about programming knows that removing 50k worth of code isnt going to free up enough memory for 10,000s of people storing 500k worth of dataa pice.
Yes I completely agree that we should be able to sell pets on a vendor/bazaar. I hate having to spam for hours when I do have pets to sell, then have people bug me for hours on end when I dont have any pets to sell or the time to go find one for them.
Message Edited by Joker9125 on 09-20-2005 06:33 PM