Creature Handler Archive
Thread: How nerfing CH has hurt the game, and made everyone a Jedi.
Page 1 of 2
Joker9125
Fri Oct 15, 2004 9:25 am
#1
Ive been thinkingabout a few things lately mostly about the Jedi problem and the hugeCH nerf, particuarly the one that changed the stats of all the creatures in the game and a thought occured to me. I realize most of you have probably already come to this conclusion but for the noobsit might not be so apparent. Back when the holocrons were first implimented professions were not nearly as strong as they are now and took a fair bit of time to master which made the system seem like a good idea and I think it really was a good idea for that time. But after they nerfed creature stats they unknowingly opened pandoras box if you would.
By making nearly every creature in the game soloable they caused a massive influx of credits into the economy with everyone doing jantha, mokk, and rancor missions in under 3 minfor 20-30k a pop. This of course turned many people into millionairs and caused the economy to inflate. By doing this the devs made it possible to master any profession in a week not just combat but crafting profs as well by giving everyone the resources to mass produce resources by setting up as many harvesters as they had lots. This gave the crafters the resources to gind out any crafting profession in under a week. Obviously this affected the Holocron system as well. Since any profession could be mastered in a week people could attain Jedi in 3-4 months if they got one profession mastered per week.
Realizing what was going on the devs spent months implimenting a new Jedi system instead of working on the combat balance, GCW, Smuggler, Ranger, and Squad Leader. And now JTL has further delayed all of these things
While the CH nerf wasnt the only factor in this. it did play a big role shaping the game into what it is today. Overall I would say Armor, Buffs, and the CH nerf played equal roles.
With this in mind I can smile every time I pull a pet or watch a TKM level enraged rancor lairs because in their attempt to hurt us they wound up hurting not only themselves but the 1337 kiddies who were crying for the CH nerf.
Seiryuu
Fri Oct 15, 2004 9:39 am
#2
I agree with you completely and I have been saying this for some time.
In addition to making everything soloable, it makes playing in groups not fun. My guild was tearing itself apart in frustration because of this (and they did not even realize the cause until I pointed it out). We used to do hunts of 10-15 people against pickets or the target of the week. Medics were needed and every gun added helped immensely. Pets were desired to control the flow of battle. Now one person can take out a lair in a fraction of the time. Mixing a master of a combat profession with a newbie means the newbie has nothing to do as the target is dead. Putting a master with a group of lower-skilled people means the master is bored because they don't want to destroy the target instantly. As it exists now, the game encourages solo hunting.
Hologrinding would have still been an issue, but not as big a one were creatures not rebalanced because people would have still wanted to group to take down targets that gave good xp. Even now with the FS grinding groups could be desirable were creatures not so weak.
I had not even thought about the economic consequences. Now that you mention it I see how that has been affected to. The faucet was turned on high and left on.
And it all comes back to December 2003. They should have pushed ahead with the rebalance or reverted the creatures. I think the devs still fail to realize this point though. They see the symptoms and try to address them, but lack the insight to see the true cause.
In addition to making everything soloable, it makes playing in groups not fun. My guild was tearing itself apart in frustration because of this (and they did not even realize the cause until I pointed it out). We used to do hunts of 10-15 people against pickets or the target of the week. Medics were needed and every gun added helped immensely. Pets were desired to control the flow of battle. Now one person can take out a lair in a fraction of the time. Mixing a master of a combat profession with a newbie means the newbie has nothing to do as the target is dead. Putting a master with a group of lower-skilled people means the master is bored because they don't want to destroy the target instantly. As it exists now, the game encourages solo hunting.
Hologrinding would have still been an issue, but not as big a one were creatures not rebalanced because people would have still wanted to group to take down targets that gave good xp. Even now with the FS grinding groups could be desirable were creatures not so weak.
I had not even thought about the economic consequences. Now that you mention it I see how that has been affected to. The faucet was turned on high and left on.
And it all comes back to December 2003. They should have pushed ahead with the rebalance or reverted the creatures. I think the devs still fail to realize this point though. They see the symptoms and try to address them, but lack the insight to see the true cause.
TottDonetta
Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:28 am
#3
i agree totaly, although i think that the power of buffs and the weakness of creatures and the penalisation of grouping (you make LESS xp when grouped) is the cause, the strength of armour is secondary, its fine for people to wear it, but wearing armour of that strength AND spamming specials? thats going too far!
i read on the fencer forums that the devs have come up with a solution to this tho: just as jedi have a 4th HAM bar (for their Force pool) we may be getting a 4th - our specials bar. as we use specials we decrease the special bar and when its empty we cant do specials. we just have to stand their soaking up all the damage with our buffs and armour till the special bar refilss and we can start all over again. i dont think this will adress the problem at all, it will just mean that all the boring grinding takes a LOT longer, 10 minutes instead of three. big whoop.
this is just typical of the devs attitude to the game tho, no imagination or effort going into solution that doesnt really adress the problem OR the cause of the problem. once the special bar is in place how long before a doc/chef/smuggler can buff it in some way?
ive said this many times before, im sure the devs are all very nice people in RL and very good at what they do, programming etc. but they dont know how to make GAMES! they spend so much time trying to 'balance' the game that they forget that none of us want the game to be balanced. we want it to be FUN!
i think they also need to remember that this is an MMORPG, that stands for massivley MULTIPLAYER online ROLE PLAYING game. how ever this game actualy punishes MULTIPLAYER scenarios, and deliberatley restricts ROLE PLAYING.
Im betting the devs are hoping that JTL will protect them from the release of EQ2 and WoW. As JTL is made by the same people that brought us the current emotional roller-coaster ride of eternal grinding and delivery/destroy missions, i cant see this happening!
Message Edited by TottDonetta on 10-15-2004 10:30 AM
SioBabble
Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:37 am
#4
Weakening the critters is one facet; the buffs are the second factor, and the armor strength is the third. The buffs directly impact the armor in that they make encumbrance trivial, and they of course make the spamming of specials trivial as well. I can do things buffed that are absolute suicide unbuffed AND armored. I took on a nest of narglatches near my home E of Keren, using my LLC, and wearing a full set of ubese, and nearly got myself killed by using my usual tactics when unbuffed and unarmored. My action bar depleted fast and because of encumbrance wasn't regenerating at the rate I've become accustomed to. I was also using my giant carrion spat mount, Jive, to do some tanking, but narglatches are high probability to suss out the puppetmaster critters, and aggroed on me and left the GCS alone for the most part.
I survived the encounter, but my action was drained down to about 100 points by the end and I was recovering VERY slowly due to encumbrance from the ubese.
The tactics in the first six months of release DEMANDED a CH as part of any serious hunting group to control aggro and tank; group tactics were required and intelligence needed. The same people I hunted with then I hunt with now, and we've all grown incredibly sloppy; prematurely sparking aspawn out of a lair is a nuisance, not a fatal error as it once was.
Players are far too overpowered in PvE now. A buffed, armored moncal with carbines IV can enage five Nyax goons (to include a visionary and a fanatic) and not evencome close to being incapacitated.
Pluto9Moon
Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:49 am
#5
Tott,
That is what my understanding of the Combat Revamp would do. Simply just make a 4th specials bar and make Specials a Large drain but fast recharge. Seems the CR snowballed and now every promise ever made is linked to the CR. Well, we are waiting.
That is what my understanding of the Combat Revamp would do. Simply just make a 4th specials bar and make Specials a Large drain but fast recharge. Seems the CR snowballed and now every promise ever made is linked to the CR. Well, we are waiting.
OniKCS
Fri Oct 15, 2004 9:17 pm
#6
Ugh, ya beat me too it, I was writing a similar post earlier today but never got around to posting it. I agree with you 100% and then some, when they nerfed us it was the begging of a huge downward spiral that were still stuck in.
For what its worth my solution; Unnerf creatures, return them to what they were before the nerf. Leave the CH trees as they are as they keep people from dabbling in the proffesion too much (since we were nerfed due to dabblers IMO). Doing so would cause people to group more as the mobs would be harder to kill and promote deapth to the game and reduce the rate at which credits enter the game (since loot/reward would be divided). Once the Devs are finished with the CR they could reintroduce the creature nerf, since the CR is "supposed to" bring players to a level at which we are at at the current. Doing this would also make CH more competative in PvE and PvP which is one of the main problems with our proffesion in its current state.
Any thoughts/responces/flames on my suggestion, would like to hear other's opinions.
For what its worth my solution; Unnerf creatures, return them to what they were before the nerf. Leave the CH trees as they are as they keep people from dabbling in the proffesion too much (since we were nerfed due to dabblers IMO). Doing so would cause people to group more as the mobs would be harder to kill and promote deapth to the game and reduce the rate at which credits enter the game (since loot/reward would be divided). Once the Devs are finished with the CR they could reintroduce the creature nerf, since the CR is "supposed to" bring players to a level at which we are at at the current. Doing this would also make CH more competative in PvE and PvP which is one of the main problems with our proffesion in its current state.
Any thoughts/responces/flames on my suggestion, would like to hear other's opinions.
ZallusNuranxis
Fri Oct 15, 2004 9:50 pm
#7
OniKCS wrote:YES UNNERF THE CREATURES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ugh, ya beat me too it, I was writing a similar post earlier today but never got around to posting it. I agree with you 100% and then some, when they nerfed us it was the begging of a huge downward spiral that were still stuck in.
For what its worth my solution; Unnerf creatures, return them to what they were before the nerf. Leave the CH trees as they are as they keep people from dabbling in the proffesion too much (since we were nerfed due to dabblers IMO). Doing so would cause people to group more as the mobs would be harder to kill and promote deapth to the game and reduce the rate at which credits enter the game (since loot/reward would be divided). Once the Devs are finished with the CR they could reintroduce the creature nerf, since the CR is "supposed to" bring players to a level at which we are at at the current. Doing this would also make CH more competative in PvE and PvP which is one of the main problems with our proffesion in its current state.
Any thoughts/responces/flames on my suggestion, would like to hear other's opinions.
Pluto9Moon
Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:26 pm
#9
Onicks.
Wrong, no. Problematic, yes.
RuneSabre had this plan a year ago. He implemented it. Phases I & II are complete. We have been nerfed for 10 months. We (by we I mean some and not all) have asked for a creature rollback. It hasn't happened in 8 months when some of the coolest CH's around have left.
We have been told that Tyrant is in charge now. Puzzling as it may seem Tyrant has never posted to the forums. I have determined that this means one of two things 1) he is too busy cracking the whip to make sure things get back on schedule; 2) he has not figured out the proper direction to point SWG and is not going to post something that resembles a false promise.
Both of those arguments provide me with some hope. If both could be accomplished (direction and promptness) then everyone can win. A game that was given "Coaster of the year award" could be turned around 180 degrees with the right leadership.
The proper thing for SOE to do in my honest and humble opinion is to make a Sandbox Only forums. Testers should be involved with this process now. Then and only then (with the exception of making the documents public) will we know they are serious about the Revamp.
Wrong, no. Problematic, yes.
RuneSabre had this plan a year ago. He implemented it. Phases I & II are complete. We have been nerfed for 10 months. We (by we I mean some and not all) have asked for a creature rollback. It hasn't happened in 8 months when some of the coolest CH's around have left.
We have been told that Tyrant is in charge now. Puzzling as it may seem Tyrant has never posted to the forums. I have determined that this means one of two things 1) he is too busy cracking the whip to make sure things get back on schedule; 2) he has not figured out the proper direction to point SWG and is not going to post something that resembles a false promise.
Both of those arguments provide me with some hope. If both could be accomplished (direction and promptness) then everyone can win. A game that was given "Coaster of the year award" could be turned around 180 degrees with the right leadership.
The proper thing for SOE to do in my honest and humble opinion is to make a Sandbox Only forums. Testers should be involved with this process now. Then and only then (with the exception of making the documents public) will we know they are serious about the Revamp.
taloncard
Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:28 pm
#10
/sigh
What everyone else said
Nothing to add really other than this game is borked and in need of a revamp.
What everyone else said
Nothing to add really other than this game is borked and in need of a revamp.
OniKCS
Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:39 pm
#11
Pluto9Moon wrote:
Onicks.
Wrong, no. Problematic, yes.
RuneSabre had this plan a year ago. He implemented it. Phases I & II are complete. We have been nerfed for 10 months. We (by we I mean some and not all) have asked for a creature rollback. It hasn't happened in 8 months when some of the coolest CH's around have left.
We have been told that Tyrant is in charge now. Puzzling as it may seem Tyrant has never posted to the forums. I have determined that this means one of two things 1) he is too busy cracking the whip to make sure things get back on schedule; 2) he has not figured out the proper direction to point SWG and is not going to post something that resembles a false promise.
Both of those arguments provide me with some hope. If both could be accomplished (direction and promptness) then everyone can win. A game that was given "Coaster of the year award" could be turned around 180 degrees with the right leadership.
The proper thing for SOE to do in my honest and humble opinion is to make a Sandbox Only forums. Testers should be involved with this process now. Then and only then (with the exception of making the documents public) will we know they are serious about the Revamp.
I just returned from deployment so i missed a lot of what happend im not about to go back 8 months to find out what all the posts were and what all has happend. Due to my abscence from the game i missed a lot I'll admit but I can say that with a creature role back the state of the game would take a turn for the better. Mind you this is all my opinion, but I still believe that with a creature role back untill the CR we would be better off then the way we are now. Creatures would stand a better chance in combat, keeping our skill tree as is would keep dabblers away (not like BE pets dont do that anyway) and would promote team play, which is supposed to be a part of this game besides just solo-grouping. But whats the point of arguing/discussing, not like itll ever happen.
tiberius4327
Sat Oct 16, 2004 2:02 am
#12
I've been playing for about 3 months and even I can see that Buffs/armour cause a lot of problems. IMO solo-groups are killing this game, the economy is so inflated that anyone who doesn't solo-group or craft items (e.g me) struggle to afford things.
Every time I see someone solo a Rancor lair in 5 minutes, I begin to think about cancelling my account. I can't understand why SoE don't make high level creaturesvery difficult. If they made it so that they have reallyhigh resists to every damage type, it would obviously take more people to kill them.
The players are not blameless. Most don't realise that by solo-grouping they are causing so many problems, but if they did know, how many do you think would stop? 
Nvim
Sat Oct 16, 2004 8:38 am
#13
The december release would have worked better for PvE if they made creatures harder, as it is they made the bulk of the creatures far too easy.
The ease of killing CL70+ mobs at present is comical. Anything way over 70 should really be group only mobs. They all need to have heavy armour, very good resists, no vulnerabilities, huge ham and more importantly a very high damage output or AP due to size and force.
For a game that has such an insignificant loss on death it is pretty damn hard to actually die unless you do something stupid.
The greatest bane to SWG is people min/maxing their templates and their characters to be combat machines and at the moment there is far too much damage avoidance and mitigation that can be stacked to really ugly levels (+125 for defenses, dodges, blocks, counterattacks). When combined with buffs they are just problematic and ruin the game.
We need tougher and more dangerous wild mobs that will force people to group and fix the CH's lake of oomph at the same time.
The ease of killing CL70+ mobs at present is comical. Anything way over 70 should really be group only mobs. They all need to have heavy armour, very good resists, no vulnerabilities, huge ham and more importantly a very high damage output or AP due to size and force.
For a game that has such an insignificant loss on death it is pretty damn hard to actually die unless you do something stupid.
The greatest bane to SWG is people min/maxing their templates and their characters to be combat machines and at the moment there is far too much damage avoidance and mitigation that can be stacked to really ugly levels (+125 for defenses, dodges, blocks, counterattacks). When combined with buffs they are just problematic and ruin the game.
We need tougher and more dangerous wild mobs that will force people to group and fix the CH's lake of oomph at the same time.
Page 1 of 2