Creature Handler Archive
Thread: CH'S HAVE BEEN NERFED AGAIN!!! READ WHY!!
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CoenNoth
Wed May 04, 2005 5:27 pm
#1
I am reprinting this post from HANDSNAKE which can be found at the link here:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=cudiscussiontemp&message.id=25971
I want all you CHs out there to finally understand what has really happened to our pets and all the creatures of SWG. I have finally bought a clue after reading this excellent post. It boils down simply to the level system. Our pets are forever gone and arenow just "angry" bags with a different skin and all based on levels. GONE FOREVER ARE OUR PETS UNIQUE CHARACTERISTICS!!
CHs have been NERFED AGAIN!! 
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I think that this should be here, as it bears on the subject of this forum.
Please take the time to read all of the points as well as the conclusions. Keep responses civil, please.
I have tested the CU since it hit Beta and have been following the CU since publish 7.
There are a number of unexpected problems with the implementation of the CU as it stands in Live (and how it developed in beta) that do not track with the available information given over the year since it was announced.
The way the current implementation of the CU is made up has several glaring variances from the previously released info - in that there was one central item that I have identified has caused the majority of the imbalances and problems encountered with the CU.
Putting a 'level' system on top of a skill based system.
This was not in the original CU documentation released on 03/31/05, and data from public statements of sources inside the CU 'sandbox' scheme (without violating NDA) have confirmed that itwas neverdiscussed with them to the degree it was implemented.
Herein I will list the worst issues reported about the CU and show that they are all tied directly to the 'level system' implementation that was added to the functional design of the CU.
1. Crafter Death - Crafters are 1 shotted by every aggro mob on every starter planet. The fragility of crafter characters at 'combat level' 1 is extreme. Surveying alone is impossible since spawns will appear under vehicles in motion and mobs will kill crafters in less than 2 seconds.
The ability to at least run away has been removed - this makes crafters unable to function at a basic level.
The 'level' system has a damage multiplier. You will see this in further points. This damage multiplier makes anything higher level than you equivalent to instant death. Five levels above you will always kill you. Again, this point will be repeated.
Since crafters will not have any combat rating unless they become a hybrid and drop pure crafting, they will always take max damage.
Furthermore, every animal will use the damage multiplier against a base value. There is no such thing, therefore, as a 'safe' enemy for crafters.
This is the result of the 'level' system.
Before, each mob had different resists and damage ranges. They had a "threat" level, which was based on how high their offensive and defensive values were. Under the old system, that was the basis of the /con result.
This threat level has NO relationship to the current 'combat level' system, no matter what the devs claim in the HOC chat.
The threat level was an EVALUATION of an existing mob.
A 'combat level' is a MODIFICATION of a base value mob "angry bag" put into whatever 'skin' is appropriate, i.e, a level 34 dune lizard is the same as a level 34 peko peko.
The new COMBAT LEVEL defines the offensive and defensive values - not the other way around.
This is an important distinction, and is critical to understanding the conclusion about the combat level system and why it was added to the CU at such a late date.
2. XP gains and lack of same: A significant number of people are finding odd results from attacking mobs slightly below their level and higher - as in getting little to no XP. The response of the devs is to have people focus on just fighting even leveled mobs.
The real question is: Why was the XP variance put in the CU in the first place?
XP gains or rates of gains was NEVER addressed as a concern in the Combat Upgrade. It did not affect combat in any way, shape, or form in PVP, nor were there "problems" about the flavor of combat that were caused by XP being gained by anything you defeated.
It was never an issue at all.
However, in 'level' based systems, the paradigm is that LEVEL DETERMINES XP AT ALL TIMES.
In a skill based system, mobs are worth what they are worth - period.
The XP dilemma is a byproduct of the introduction of the level based combat overlay - and that is it.
It offers NO positive effects to the pace of combat, the usability and distinction of all combat professions, the tactical nature of combat - in fact, it hinders advancement. It does nothing that the CU was written to do - at all. It has no purpose.
It has nothing to do with lessening the effects of overpowered buffs and armor and does nothing to address ANY SINGLE ITEM mentioned in the CU Documentation.
It is, in fact, the unavoidable side effect of the use of the level system. It was NEVER a goal of the CU and is present ONLY because a level system was introduced.
The reason why it was is the kicker.
3. Certifications of weapons being based on level - Many people think that this was INTENDED. It was not.
This was a FIX put in to deal with the fact that the level system made xp vanish from 'low level' mobs for people grinding their 2nd elite combat prof. The 'level' system FORCED the removal of certs tied to skills. Else, a TKM attempting to grind pistols would never be able to do so as long as the level system was in place - he couldn't kill anything ever that gave him Pistol XP.
So they pulled pistols (and all other weapons) from skill boxes and tied them to 'combat levels' as a work around for this unplanned-for circumstance. They did this with all the weapons at first, then came back to address the idea of a TKM/Ranger using a beam rifle. So a very few 'iconic' weapons were tied to skill boxes.
This is a cheat.
The original design of the CU, again, had NOTHING in it about un-latching the weapons from skill boxes.
It was because - simply put - The CU Was Never To Be Level Based.
XP was therefore NEVER supposed To Be 'Gated' to mob level comparisons.
Crafters Were Never Supposed to be unable to walk outside.
Weapons Were Never to be "floating" - they were supposed to be ADDITIVE*
*(Commando/Rifleman was supposed to be able to use a beam weapon with a rifle special - ADDITIVE as in Ranged do ranged - melee does melee and the certs ADD)
So - if you've read this far - you're asking yourself "Why the helldid they put in the level system? What POSSIBLE use could it be?"
Mobs. Mobs, deadlines, and stats.
Converting all the existing mobs to be balanced before May 5th was impossible. The only explanation is that they imposed the level system on the mobs because a level system makes the generation of mobs EASY.
You have 2 types of mobs - Humanoid and Non-Humanoid.
You have 2 types of each of those - melee only, and ranged primary/melee secondary.
You have 2 types of each of those - melee only, and ranged primary/melee secondary.
These make each mob into an "angry bag" that can have a skin thrown on it, and the level system DEFINES THE DAMAGE DONE AT ALL TIMES TO ANYONE.
Quick. Easy. Fast.
No coding 350 different 'species' each with different xp values, resists, and attack values (not to mention individual, named mobs). Just a bag with a level, attack subroutine, and a skin on it. Damage multipliers (remember those?) will automatically generate "challenge". Damage mitigation due to level differences will SIMULATE weakening defenses.
Bam. Done.
Quick. Easy. Fast.
And WORTHLESS.
That's what they did. That's the MAIN problem with the CU.
Take out the level system - leaving everything else in - and you have a viable product. You have crafters able to run away from things even without buffs and armor
You have people able to still use the weapons they expect to use.
And you won't encounter people UNABLE to progress in their profession.
You have to do one thing though - you have to work on mobs and MAKE THEM WORK RIGHT.
It takes time which they claim they don't have.
The Level system is like putting wallpaper over a broken window.
It's a cheap easy and BAD fix that made more problems than they understood.
Without it, the CU would work.
With it, SWG is dead.
Repub Arnaz
~~MDE/MWS/MArtisan~~
Lovely Goontown, Naboo
I live in Goontown. I forgot where my house is.
WTB - Pantaloons
~~MDE/MWS/MArtisan~~
Lovely Goontown, Naboo
I live in Goontown. I forgot where my house is.
WTB - Pantaloons
Search your feelings young jedi. You know it to be true! 
Bye Bye MCH, now MRM/MD (YaY! THANKS TO THE CU, BACK TO BETA TESTING!!) 
Also Smuggler's Alliance Ace
IForgotMyName
Wed May 04, 2005 5:32 pm
#2
Saw this awhile ago, great post.
However think your overreacting. Even though our pets no longer are special, this is thought to be a bug, at least the specials. It's still the first few weeks, let's calm down and wait.
CoenNoth
Wed May 04, 2005 5:38 pm
#3
As you can tell I've been playing since August 2003 and you've been playing almost as long. Us veteran players, especially veteran pre-nerf CH's have put up with a lot of bugs, testing, patches, and nerfing (some of it needed). We need to stop taking it in the shorts. I am cancelling my pre-order of ROW and will probably ride this thing a little longer but if this game no longer proves to be fun for me I'm out.
As it now stands the fun quotient is getting pretty low. Sad thing is I was really getting into the GCW just before this CU fowl up and was having fun with the changes brought by that.
bl00ds0ul
Wed May 04, 2005 5:40 pm
#4
our pets rock in pve and pvp... so we were nerfed better?.... right..
IForgotMyName
Wed May 04, 2005 5:42 pm
#5
All a matter of personal preference. I had good fun catching new babies. Sure, there's bugs. The game is completely changed, there's bound to be. We can help them get fixed though, if you'd put your bad experiences into positive outcomes.
Oh and I've been playing since launch, not Christmas.
CoenNoth
Wed May 04, 2005 6:08 pm
#6
Ah, yes, put on a happy face and smile 
I feel like we're in the 70s all over again having to choose from one crappy American gas guzzler over another crappy American gas guzzler. I think I'm going to just buy a quality Toyota! 
Honestly peeps go out and pull some missions grouped with your pets and then try to solo those nests, especially level 80 or higher nests.Even more of a painful job now, especially if you're trying to level up. Luckily I don't have to worry about that.
Go tame pets, fine, go do PvP, fine. I agree that being an MRM/MCH combo now makes me quite powerful in PvP. But what I really enjoyed was soloing out in the wilderness with my pets or killing rebels in NPC cities. I just feel really bad for all the folks out there who did not already have a decent template and are trying to level up in this retarded system.
AND DO NOT FORGET WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO THE CRAFTERS IN THIS GAME!! They have been nuked badly.
I just don't think we bargained for this retarded level system. I much prefer the skill based system and the unique characteristics of our pets. It was great and NOT BROKEN!!!!!! SOE is clearly going to a standardized platform for some of their MMO's.
jopenack
Wed May 04, 2005 6:14 pm
#7
Yea read this too, it was a sticky on siobabbles signiture.
Thats why many ch call pets today generic. Most ch here are aware of it,
there have been quite a few post's actually that have written about it
I fist realised it on TC. In the end it's what put the proverbialnail in the coffin for me.
A ch is all I ever truely wanted to be.
Siruswhite-star
Wed May 04, 2005 6:47 pm
#8
IForgotMyName wrote:
All a matter of personal preference. I had good fun catching new babies. Sure, there's bugs. The game is completely changed, there's bound to be. We can help them get fixed though, if you'd put your bad experiences into positive outcomes.
Oh and I've been playing since launch, not Christmas.
Me too, i'm loving cloning over and over. I like the realisticness of the tame. In RL lets say your sneaking up on a pride of Lions to steal a cub, what is most llikely goin to happen?
Phaelyn
Thu May 05, 2005 3:14 am
#9
Been doing so with absolutely NO problem since the CU took effect. Myself (CL 80) grouped with my CL 51 Rancor (BE) and CL 19 Gaping Spider (Wild Tame)have no problems taking on anything up to CL 94 or so. In fact, grouped with another CH friend and his 2 Pets this evening, had an enjoyable time in the Nightspider Cult Cave utterly destroying the CL 245 Elder down there.
CoenNoth wrote:
Honestly peeps go out and pull some missions grouped with your pets and then try to solo those nests, especially level 80 or higher nests.Even more of a painful job now, especially if you're trying to level up. Luckily I don't have to worry about that.
CoenNoth
Thu May 05, 2005 3:25 am
#10
Far too many people in these forums want to put on a smiley face and ignore the hard business reality of what has happened here. I fear they are doing all of this so the new Sony Playstation 3 can use MMO's because there is a larger customer base there and these CU changes will make it easier for Sony to shove down content to console gamers. The future is probably not in PC MMO games but in console MMO games.
There was another article (I forget the link) where Smedley from SOE talks about this future. How to deliver content on your PSP and I'm sure your new PS3 such as MMO's.
Check out the SW Vault interview with the devs
CLICKY
The utter arrogance SOE has shown us over the last 2 1/2 years is getting ridiculous.
There was another article (I forget the link) where Smedley from SOE talks about this future. How to deliver content on your PSP and I'm sure your new PS3 such as MMO's.
Check out the SW Vault interview with the devs
CLICKY
The utter arrogance SOE has shown us over the last 2 1/2 years is getting ridiculous.
Message Edited by CoenNoth on 05-05-2005 06:29 AM
CoenNoth
Thu May 05, 2005 3:34 am
#11
I was silent and positive for 2 1/2 years while we were handed promise after promise. I am not complaining directly about my template because I can work with it. What galls me is the arrogance, lack of communication, dishonesty, of SOE. I can't be positive anymore. What they did to crafters and entertainers is extremely sad. Wake up people and stop thinking so selfishly about your CH character. Think of the bigger picture and the utter lack of customer service. The least they should have done is offer one free month's subscription for putting up with this utter mess of a new game and the Alpha testing we are all doing.
IForgotMyName
Thu May 05, 2005 4:42 am
#12
CoenNoth wrote:
I was silent and positive for 2 1/2 years while we were handed promise after promise. I am not complaining directly about my template because I can work with it. What galls me is the arrogance, lack of communication, dishonesty, of SOE. I can't be positive anymore. What they did to crafters and entertainers is extremely sad. Wake up people and stop thinking so selfishly about your CH character. Think of the bigger picture and the utter lack of customer service. The least they should have done is offer one free month's subscription for putting up with this utter mess of a new game and the Alpha testing we are all doing.
Don't tell me to wake up and see the customer service. I play on Chimaera, I lost a full line of skills and suffered insane downtime and 2 1 week rollbacks.
Angamarth
Thu May 05, 2005 5:00 am
#13
Missed Vertexon's post with the three questions, did we? Creature specials being broken, along with the ability to see what resists are on a mob?
I know, it's more fun to be a rabble rouser, spew conspiracy theories, and see how many people you can get stirred up, but like Phaelyn said it's not hard at all to be effective post CU.
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