Community Relations Archive
Thread: Communication Meltdown: TEF Removal
Guamarhea wrote:
Stir, stir, stir the pot...
I think this whole thread has outlived it's usefulness. In spite of repeated explanations, the author (and others) will be unable to fully accept that the thousands of posts regarding TEFs were sufficient for the Dev's to take action without making new announcements.
I hereby claim this thread in the name of Caballo de Muerto...lett the floggings commence! Arriba!
I think you are right Guamarhea, it has outlived its usefullness. In all honesty, I regret posting it in the first place.Honestly at this point, it wouldn't bother me if it got locked. I made my point, people don't agree with it and thats ok.
And you are right, I don't accept at all the player posts were enough. However, I do accept that the majority of players disagree with me and want to get rid of the TEF, and I guess we will have to leave it at that.
Lastly, the joke honestly wasn't meant to stir the pot. I was hoping people could step back from the situtation and see it from others point of view. I guess this is too controvesial an issue for the joke to be recevied in the spirit it was intended.
Guamarhea wrote:
No, no, I'M the one that was stirring the pot
jphillips1868 wrote:
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I guess even my attempt at humor failed. /sigh
I wasn't attacking people who prefer PvE, at least not specifically. I was try to make fun of everyone, including myself. I consider myself in the "immersion geek" category. I refered to the PvPers not as such, but playing to the stereo type that all PvEers are griefers. So if my post offended you I am sorry. It wasn't intended to. I just seem to be way out sync with most of the rest of the community on this issue.
Since you appear to have not noticed my earlier post, I say again - you are not an "immersion geek".
You are not perma overt (in fact barely ever overt judging by your statements) so the event you define as immersion breaking must happen ALL the time to you under the current system. If you were mostly overt you might have a point, but you are not.
I'm sorry, but since you cannot give a reason for keeping the TEF we can only assume it's because you want to attack without warning players who have no interest in PvP. Your immersion argument lacks any sense due to your covert status. If I am wrong, please let us know precisely why you want to keep the current form of TEF, including your rationale of why it's not immersion breaking when you don't want to be attacked but it is when you want to attack someone else.
On the topic of SOE/player communications, the issue of TEFs has been discussed to death for years by both Devs and players. It was a design mistake and is now being fixed.
Althus_Alen wrote:
jphillips1868 wrote:
<
I guess even my attempt at humor failed. /sigh
I wasn't attacking people who prefer PvE, at least not specifically. I was try to make fun of everyone, including myself. I consider myself in the "immersion geek" category. I refered to the PvPers not as such, but playing to the stereo type that all PvEers are griefers. So if my post offended you I am sorry. It wasn't intended to. I just seem to be way out sync with most of the rest of the community on this issue.
Since you appear to have not noticed my earlier post, I say again - you are not an "immersion geek".
You are not perma overt (in fact barely ever overt judging by your statements) so the event you define as immersion breaking must happen ALL the time to you under the current system. If you were mostly overt you might have a point, but you are not.
I'm sorry, but since you cannot give a reason for keeping the TEF we can only assume it's because you want to attack without warning players who have no interest in PvP. Your immersion argument lacks any sense due to your covert status. If I am wrong, please let us know precisely why you want to keep the current form of TEF, including your rationale of why it's not immersion breaking when you don't want to be attacked but it is when you want to attack someone else.
On the topic of SOE/player communications, the issue of TEFs has been discussed to death for years by both Devs and players. It was a design mistake and is now being fixed.
If you want to assume I want to gank players, I can't stop you. But if you ask anyone that knows me in game, they will tell you that is not the case.
Look, as I've said many times, this isn't the thread to discuss getting rid of the TEF, but since you insist I defend my position.
To answer your question, in the instance where I am covert and I see an imp attacking rebel NPCs there is no inconsistency. I am a covert rebel. I am in hiding because the Empire wants to kill me. That is the role play dynamic involved and one reason the TEF was in place originally. Now I have 2 options available both of which are consistent with roleplaying. Option 1 is that the Empire has superior forces and I withdraw like a smart rebel and live to fight another day or return with adequate force to repel the threat. Option 2 is that I declare and try to repel the imp invaders. I don't consider either option as ganking. Removing the TEF takes away the second option and is anti-immersive.
As to the communication issue I admit that I misjudged the level of discontent with the TEF. I never considered the complaints about it, and still don't really, other than the group TEF issues, to have any merit. To me, the people wanting to get rid of the TEF are really being unreasonable because even if you get a TEF it is very easy to avoid PvP. So even with TEFs in place, you are rarely going to be subjected to PvP, unless you are completly stupid about it and attack enemy NPCs when there are Overts around. So I was caught completly by suprise by this annouced change. I never participated in the TEF discussions before as I had no clue they might be removed.
Not doing the kind of in concept post I asked for, essentially requires that anytime any player says we need to change this aspect of the game, that those against it voice their concern as to why to keep it in the game becuase the Devs might read the post and assume all or most players feel that way.
All of that being said, I am willing to live with the TEF change. However, I am not willing to put up with giving enemy players the ability to work together in opposing faction armour. For me that is the last straw.
I don't assume that your stated reasons for getting rid of the TEF are a pretext to ruin my immersion, please don't assume that my reason are a pretext to gank you.
BaronJedi wrote:
My problem is the faction armor....not the TEFs. How will this not be EQ in space? Imagine the Coronet Starport. Everyone in Faction Armor...except...no one fighting each other. What?! Kind of deathblows the Star Wars atmosphere for me.
Did you not think of this aspect? I didn't call you a "ganker" either, I said that if you can't come up with a reason that fits into your own, and the games, logic that it appears to be the only choice left. Either that or you don't really want immersion except when it suits you, even if that is against immersion for many more players than yourself (the people coming to exact revenge).
In reality, anyone who is not perma overt and attacks other players using TEFs has no right to complain about immersion until the above situation is answered.
EDIT. Oh and you admit to ignoring the many TEF discussions on this board. That is not the Devs fault, that is yours. This has been discussed constantly since beta, with many Dev contributions. If you had bothered to read the threads, it would have been easy to make your case. You would also have seen that most players want it removed.
Stop trying to blame the Devs for your own omissions.
Message Edited by Althus_Alen on 02-06-2005 10:31 AM
Althus_Alen wrote:
So you declare and go kill the opposition player. Now he knows that you are a Rebel (for eg). So why should you be able to hide behind covert later (basically removing yourself from PvP) when some friends of his come to find you? They know you are a Rebel, they know your name and they want to kill you. You hiding behind covert ruins my immersion. You are a known rebel who has killed imperials, including members of the armed forces (the imp player with a TEF you killed). Just exactly how is this not totally immersion breaking?
Did you not think of this aspect? I didn't call you a "ganker" either, I said that if you can't come up with a reason that fits into your own, and the games, logic that it appears to be the only choice left. Either that or you don't really want immersion except when it suits you, even if that is against immersion for many more players than yourself (the people coming to exact revenge).
In reality, anyone who is not perma overt and attacks other players using TEFs has no right to complain about immersion until the above situation is answered.
EDIT. Oh and you admit to ignoring the many TEF discussions on this board. That is not the Devs fault, that is yours. This has been discussed constantly since beta, with many Dev contributions. If you had bothered to read the threads, it would have been easy to make your case. You would also have seen that most players want it removed.
Stop trying to blame the Devs for your own omissions.
Message Edited by Althus_Alen on 02-06-2005 10:31 AM
On the communication issue. The point of admitting that I didn't read the TEF discussions was to admit that I some responsibility and blame for this communication breakdown, in case that wasn't obvious. In hindsight I should have. The problem is there some segment of the community wants to change just about everything about the game. Even though I read the forums a great deal,I don't have the time to read and respond to every thread that would change some aspect of the game I like. I had no indication the Devs were considering changing this until Wednesday. TEFs have been in game since day 1 and and people have been complaining about them since then. What reason did I have to suspect that after that amount of time the Devs were all of the sudden going to change the system and you have to admit, go or bad, it is a fundamental change. All I asked for was thatonce theTHE DEVS made the decision to address the TEF issue, that the DEVSannounce that they were considering changing it so that I could have voiced my opinion. If you really havea problem with that, you need to ask yourself are you against the communication because you think it isn't necessary, or because you agree with the change.
I think you have a fair point about the person that can't go kill the person that killed their friend. If the Devs want to make every one overt 24/7, I don't have a problem with that. Or if the Devs want to make it so that once you declare, you are overt until you die, no going back to covert until then, I'm cool with that as well. Although thistakes an hourunder the current system, so that guy's friendsdo havean opportunity to exact revenge.
As for your logic, I think you are making too many unfounded assumptions.IfI were touse your logic to analyize whyYOU are againstTEFs, I wouldconclude you are afraid to EVER have any player versus player combat becauseeven withTEFsa playercan easily avoid PvP,if they are remotely careful.Such logic is flawed as is your analysis of why I want to keep TEFs.
I am sure there are things that bother other people's immersion, that don't bother me as such. Another poster in another threadmetioned the non-attackable Stormtroopers in the Mos Eisley cantina as an immersion breaker. Well, makingall faction NPCs attackable is fine with me, including the faction pilot trainers. I am not claiming tohave all of the answers onimmersion,I am just putting forth what bothers me the most about immersion. Others can make the case for what bothers them, and most likely I'll agree with them.
If what you are getting at is that some things that break immersion bother me more than other things you are correct.For example, if you have read my posts in the threads that are actuallymeant for a discussion of whether or not TEFS should be removed, as opposed to this one which is (or was) about communication, you would learn that I am willing to accept (although I obviously don't like it) the TEFs removal's negative effects on immersion, if its going to enhance other PvE player's experience. What I can't accept is the possibility of a PvP disabled rebel and PvP disabled imperial each wearing their respective faction armour, working together against some non-faction mob, or sitting peacfully together in a cantina. For me, see that is much worse than being ganked often, much less the very infrequent pvp the normal PvE player is like to incur under the current system. Those situations really make the game not star wars for me and so I have resigned myself to the fact that its just time to move on.
Message Edited by jphillips1868 on 02-06-2005 02:22 PM
I am not against communication, I think it happened. You unfortunatly missed it. Not a crime, but it does mean any complaining about it is a bit misplaced. You accept that, and will no doubt follow areas of interest to you more closely. I don't follow all the debates on this board, it would be a full time job. What I do is follow the parts that will affect my gameplay. I am not a ranger for example, so any plans the Devs may have there I have no idea about. Once a Dev design idea is published, I'd probably read it and if there was anything I thought was really off I would comment. But I wouldn't be annoyed that the Devs didn't send me a PM or something to specifically inform me of the upcoming design document.
I have said why I am against TEF's in their current form. I want to PvP with people who have made the choice to, as a regular PvP'er will almost always win versus someone who just wanted to fight some stormtroopers and has no desire or experience in PvP. Someone who has a TEF because they just wanted to do something the game advertises (engage in action similar to the movies) is quite often someone who has no desire to PvP. They should not be forced to. The new system lets us PvP with people who want to, and allows players who don't like PvP to engage in important story/game elements.
I think we can move any discussion to the other TEF threads now.
I will admit in hindsight though, I probably was a little to hard on the Devs. I still think that the kind of in concept thread I requested is necessary for a change of this size/maginitude, regardless of how many people are for it, expecially when the community is divided on the issue. But meltdown is probably too strong a word. If such an in concept post was started, putting players on notice, id love a link, and I would have missed excatly what I am ask for. But I don't believe there ever was one. The post by TH was very hypotehical and very disclaimed and really not suffcient to put people on notice that the Devs were considering changing it.
Message Edited by jphillips1868 on 02-06-2005 06:13 PM