Community Relations Archive

Thread: Please make your website Firefox compatable

Monkey0000
Sun Mar 27, 2005 10:42 am
#14
About browser security, there is also the argument that IE is the most used browser in the world, thus making it a MUCH more (for lack of a better word) "profitable" for hackers to find security flaws and exploit them. The idea is once Firefox becomes more widely used hackers will begin putting more effort to exploit it as they have IE. /shrug



Ekeido
thebodster
Sun Mar 27, 2005 10:59 am
#15
Which browser is best is really a personal preference but, I would like to point out that all browsers have vulnerabilities at some point in the product life cycle.

To blindly trust any browser above another is stupid and the more vigilant people are on the internet the better.

Now the one thing that firefox has above IE is that the exploits get fixed much quicker than with IE.

As firefox use increases don't be surprised if the number of exploits found also increases.

I personally use Opera and am very happy with it.



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Knocky
Sun Mar 27, 2005 3:12 pm
#16

Droid-S128 wrote:
On EQ2 forums, firefox is able to see the current Views on the Post. Yet it can't here. Are they not the same board software?



When I try to get into the EQ2 forums via Firefox the forums always redirects me to the "you need to register an account" page. I have to use IE to get in.
neinnunb
Mon Mar 28, 2005 3:40 am
#17
Monkey0000 wrote:
About browser security, there is also the argument that IE is the most used browser in the world, thus making it a MUCH more (for lack of a better word) "profitable" for hackers to find security flaws and exploit them. The idea is once Firefox becomes more widely used hackers will begin putting more effort to exploit it as they have IE. /shrug




Then we should stop promoting firefox then.

Dont nobody get firefox it sucks!

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ukapu
Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:12 am
#18

I got news for y'all... this website isn't compatible with ANY browser .


It practically takes a PhD just to make a clickable URL... there are always too many searches in progress... the Back button re-starts and breaks the search... the Advanced Search button frequently disappears for hours at a time... the profession forums stopped sorting alphabetically and sort according to god-knows-what now... half the time I click on anything I get a "Processing your request" message that hangs for almost a minute... and this is all on IE6.

Message Edited by ukapu on 03-28-2005 01:04 PM



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GarVa
Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:42 am
#19




ukapu wrote:

I got news for y'all... this website isn't compatible with ANY browser .


It practically takes a PhD just to make a clickable URL...
This is because we never intended for people to be able to make their own clickable links, we have the feature disabled and some crafty people found a work around.

there are always too many searches in progress... because we have a few hundred thousand users with an average of 38,000 post a day this is to be expected.If searches were not limited you would be unable to view the forums in any sort of speedy manner.
the Back button re-starts and breaks the search...
Jthe Advanced Search button frequently disappears for hours at a time... the profession forums stopped sorting alphabetically and sort according to god-knows-what now...

They are always sorted by name if you use the "jump to" list in the top right corner.
half the time I click on anything I get a "Processing your request" message that hangs for almost a minute... and this is all on IE6. I use the forums at home not just at work and sure sometimes it may be processing but it is also connection related. This is not something that can ever be fixed 100%


I have seen grade school kids spend a few hours with macromedia and make a much more stable and intelligent website than this.
Please refrain from making trolling post, this post is borderline breaking the community policies on good posting.











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ukapu

Joined: 22 Sep 2022
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:20 am Post subject:
Guilty as charged... I was trolling. Sorry 'bout that. See below for further comments/questions.


GarVa wrote:







It practically takes a PhD just to make a clickable URL...
This is because we never intended for people to be able to make their own clickable links, we have the feature disabled and some crafty people found a work around.


I'm curious, why did you decide to disable it? Do people tend to abuse it somehow? Personally I find it not only useful but essential, given the state of the searching system. When someone asks a question that's been answered before, it's great to just give them a "clickie" to the appropriate post. It's just not an option to tell them "search on the X forum for Y..." because it takes so long.


there are always too many searches in progress... because we have a few hundred thousand users with an average of 38,000 post a day this is to be expected.If searches were not limited you would be unable to view the forums in any sort of speedy manner.


Why doesn't SOE upgrade their servers? I'm sure the increase in positive sentiment in the customer base would be well worth the trivial cost. I never have this problem on other forums.


A coupleother issues I forgot to mention...


Why do we need to click on "Edit As HTML" before the "Quote Post" option appears? Not that big of a deal, but it adds an extra step to the editing process.


About half the time I try to reply to a post, I get an editor window that I cannot type in. It has no cursor. Sometimes I can fix this with the Back button or a Refresh, but sometimes not.




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Flatfingers

Joined: 22 Sep 2022
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 12:23 pm Post subject:

Some good points have been made re Firefox (and Opera) vs. Internet Explorer. (I didn't really think anyone would be jumping up on a box shouting, "Yes! Flatfingers is right; how could I have been so blind?!" )


I appreciate the courteous responses, and I'd like to respond to thestrongest rebuttals:


1. Standards


I'm not anti-standards. In particular, I'm not opposed to some standards for software and computing technology. But the speed with which internetwork hardware (computing horsepower and connectedness/bandwidth) changes means that a standard can become obsolete soon after it gains acceptance. And an obsolete standard that isn't abandoned becomes a drag on the process of further advancement.Pushing an outdated standard(because change is hard)impedes the adoption of revolutionary new technologies and usage patterns.


There's a place for standards in this hyperactive world. Foundational standards such as the original HTML and HTTP are good examples of standards that are useful because they are a) simple, and b)reference existing (although new) technology. When a standard becomes highly complex, or is implemented as a guess at future technology, it becomes counterproductive. Tweaking it to try to keep it alive even while it's being made irrelevant by some newer and more powerful real-world force just diverts creative resources away from developing and promoting a new generation of foundational standards.


So I'm not opposed to standards per se. But I think we need to be careful not to leap to standardize everything that looks like it might become popular, and then create products that are supposedly better merely because they push those new standards. The marketplace is very good at responding rapidly to new opportunities (such as those opened up by new technology) -- let products compete for customers basedon features, not on whether the product embodiessome artificial, complex, and static standard.


2. Security


IE's popularity makes it a big, juicy target, no question. And because it's a complex software program, there are lots of dark corners where security bugs can hide. It's also true that when a problem is found with Firefox, it can be fixed more quickly because it's a simpler program than IE.


On the other hand, being open source also means that Evil Crackers can study Firefox's code to find hackable features more easily than they can study a proprietary program like IE.


3. Availibility


One thing that has remained constant in the 20 years I've been a professional programmer is that despite every newcraze in software development, at the end of the day it's the financial people who call the shots, and they're just not the kind of people who are going to risk their business on uncontrolled technologies. The money people are always going to go with the large and stable vendors. Telling them they ought to invest in a smaller competitor as a way to stick it to the big guys is just going to get you stared at as though you were speaking Klingon.


That's why despite the fervor of some people in the '70s and '80s for DEC Vaxes, IBM is still here but DEC isn't. "Because it's not IBM" was never good enough. That's also why a group of important corporations recently announced that they couldn't recommend that large enterprises use Linux because "it is not secure enough, has scalability problems and could fork into many different flavors."


This group, called the Agility Alliance, includes among its members Cisco, Dell, EDS, EMC, Fuji Xerox, Microsoft and Sun... and frankly, any time you can get Microsoft and Sun to agree on something, it must be pretty obvious. (See http://software.silicon.com/security/0,39024655,39128778,00.htm for the story.) (Note: EDS has since backtracked on their part in the Agility Alliance'sstatement, calling Linux "strategically important" after Linux's vocal disciples started howling in response to the"security/stability/forking" claim.)


The advantage of Linux (and of open source software generally) is having lots of people handling the code. But that's also its chief disadvantage: there's no commitment. If tomorrow some sexy new OS comes along, the herd of people currently embracing open source will move on to the next new hottie, leaving Linux orphaned. A company that plans on being here tomorrow just can't trust an OS/software development base that might not be.





If a small software shop wants to use Linux, whether for practical reasons (the customer wants it) or idealistic reasons (because it's not Microsoft; because it's not proprietary; etc.), fine. And if that's profitable, great. But let's not pretend that software developed in public should be supported (as, for example, by Lithium) because it's somehow better than software developed by a large, stable corporation.


IE is by no means a perfect browser; it's just the clear market winner with decent features and one ofthe longest track records of support. If Lithium wants to spend a little money making the Linux/OSS folks happy, OK... but IE is where the long-term profit is, and therefore -- like it or not -- that's where the majority of Lithium's development resources should be directed.


Not that I'm expecting anyone here to agree with me on that. I'm just offering a alternate perspective onwhere I thinkforum software development time ought to be spent. If no one agrees with me, that's OK; it's been an interesting discussion.


Andhey, at least it's on-topic!


--Flatfingers
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ofim

Joined: 22 Sep 2022
Posts: 226
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:05 pm Post subject:




Flatfingers wrote:

Some good points have been made re Firefox (and Opera) vs. Internet Explorer. (I didn't really think anyone would be jumping up on a box shouting, "Yes! Flatfingers is right; how could I have been so blind?!" )


I appreciate the courteous responses, and I'd like to respond to thestrongest rebuttals:


1. Standards


I'm not anti-standards. In particular, I'm not opposed to some standards for software and computing technology. But the speed with which internetwork hardware (computing horsepower and connectedness/bandwidth) changes means that a standard can become obsolete soon after it gains acceptance. And an obsolete standard that isn't abandoned becomes a drag on the process of further advancement.Pushing an outdated standard(because change is hard)impedes the adoption of revolutionary new technologies and usage patterns.


There's a place for standards in this hyperactive world. Foundational standards such as the original HTML and HTTP are good examples of standards that are useful because they are a) simple, and b)reference existing (although new) technology. When a standard becomes highly complex, or is implemented as a guess at future technology, it becomes counterproductive. Tweaking it to try to keep it alive even while it's being made irrelevant by some newer and more powerful real-world force just diverts creative resources away from developing and promoting a new generation of foundational standards.


So I'm not opposed to standards per se. But I think we need to be careful not to leap to standardize everything that looks like it might become popular, and then create products that are supposedly better merely because they push those new standards. The marketplace is very good at responding rapidly to new opportunities (such as those opened up by new technology) -- let products compete for customers basedon features, not on whether the product embodiessome artificial, complex, and static standard.


This is because MS has thier own version of what they consider to be the HTML "standard", which is way off of what the generaly accepted HTML "standard" is.


2. Security


IE's popularity makes it a big, juicy target, no question. And because it's a complex software program, there are lots of dark corners where security bugs can hide. It's also true that when a problem is found with Firefox, it can be fixed more quickly because it's a simpler program than IE.


No question about that.


On the other hand, being open source also means that Evil Crackers can study Firefox's code to find hackable features more easily than they can study a proprietary program like IE.


Generaly speaking, the "open source guys" are the former "Evil Hackers" in many cases, I find that open source usualy gets fixed faster and most often before an exploit's use becomes prolific.


3. Availibility


One thing that has remained constant in the 20 years I've been a professional programmer is that despite every newcraze in software development, at the end of the day it's the financial people who call the shots, and they're just not the kind of people who are going to risk their business on uncontrolled technologies. The money people are always going to go with the large and stable vendors. Telling them they ought to invest in a smaller competitor as a way to stick it to the big guys is just going to get you stared at as though you were speaking Klingon.


That's why despite the fervor of some people in the '70s and '80s for DEC Vaxes, IBM is still here but DEC isn't. "Because it's not IBM" was never good enough. That's also why a group of important corporations recently announced that they couldn't recommend that large enterprises use Linux because "it is not secure enough, has scalability problems and could fork into many different flavors."


I do believe that DEC wasperchased by Compaq and basicly "absorbed" for thier technology....ironic as Compaq has been swallowed up by HP now. [I loved those alpha 64bitprocessormachines]


This group, called the Agility Alliance, includes among its members Cisco, Dell, EDS, EMC, Fuji Xerox, Microsoft and Sun... and frankly, any time you can get Microsoft and Sun to agree on something, it must be pretty obvious. (See http://software.silicon.com/security/0,39024655,39128778,00.htm for the story.) (Note: EDS has since backtracked on their part in the Agility Alliance'sstatement, calling Linux "strategically important" after Linux's vocal disciples started howling in response to the"security/stability/forking" claim.)


Frankly with Microsoft in the group, did you really expect any pro Linux to come of it?


The advantage of Linux (and of open source software generally) is having lots of people handling the code. But that's also its chief disadvantage: there's no commitment. If tomorrow some sexy new OS comes along, the herd of people currently embracing open source will move on to the next new hottie, leaving Linux orphaned. A company that plans on being here tomorrow just can't trust an OS/software development base that might not be.


There's alot of people dedicated to Linux long term, as in tens of thousands of programers and some very large corporations including IBM, SGI, Sun and too many others for me to even get a list together. Linux is also working toward POSIXcompliance putting it in the same league as Solaris, Irix, IBM AIX and many of the other big named UNIX variants.






If a small software shop wants to use Linux, whether for practical reasons (the customer wants it) or idealistic reasons (because it's not Microsoft; because it's not proprietary; etc.), fine. And if that's profitable, great. But let's not pretend that software developed in public should be supported (as, for example, by Lithium) because it's somehow better than software developed by a large, stable corporation.


Stable Software Vs. Stable Corporation, it's up to each personto decide which is more important I sapose.


IE is by no means a perfect browser; it's just the clear market winner with decent features and one ofthe longest track records of support. If Lithium wants to spend a little money making the Linux/OSS folks happy, OK... but IE is where the long-term profit is, and therefore -- like it or not -- that's where the majority of Lithium's development resources should be directed.


Some would argue that the only real reason thatIE is so popular is because it's seemingly "inseperable" from the core Microsoft product, Windows. But thats a different debate all together


Not that I'm expecting anyone here to agree with me on that. I'm just offering a alternate perspective onwhere I thinkforum software development time ought to be spent. If no one agrees with me, that's OK; it's been an interesting discussion.


Andhey, at least it's on-topic!


--Flatfingers





Nice post, just added a few........."Corrections" so to speak.


The largest example of Open Source success is Apache Web Server which powers between 80%-90% of all internet web pages, Far out performing Microsoft IIS web server.


Message Edited by ofim on 03-28-2005 04:21 PM





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teh_n00b123

Joined: 22 Sep 2022
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:13 pm Post subject:




GarVa wrote:





ukapu wrote:

I got news for y'all... this website isn't compatible with ANY browser .


It practically takes a PhD just to make a clickable URL...
This is because we never intended for people to be able to make their own clickable links, we have the feature disabled and some crafty people found a work around.

there are always too many searches in progress... because we have a few hundred thousand users with an average of 38,000 post a day this is to be expected.If searches were not limited you would be unable to view the forums in any sort of speedy manner.
the Back button re-starts and breaks the search...
Jthe Advanced Search button frequently disappears for hours at a time... the profession forums stopped sorting alphabetically and sort according to god-knows-what now...

They are always sorted by name if you use the "jump to" list in the top right corner.
half the time I click on anything I get a "Processing your request" message that hangs for almost a minute... and this is all on IE6. I use the forums at home not just at work and sure sometimes it may be processing but it is also connection related. This is not something that can ever be fixed 100%


I have seen grade school kids spend a few hours with macromedia and make a much more stable and intelligent website than this.
Please refrain from making trolling post, this post is borderline breaking the community policies on good posting.











would it be possible to let us make real links? It is extremely helpful, I don't see why it'd be disabled.




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GarVa

Joined: 22 Sep 2022
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:31 pm Post subject:
We cant just turn it on for html links... if we turn it on it brings other things (such as the ability to post images and such) which is why we do not stop anyone from using links via the workaround.





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ofim

Joined: 22 Sep 2022
Posts: 226
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:32 pm Post subject:




Rothin wrote:
Hey Garva, the most annoying thing in firefox for me is that the threads don't maintain the right width at certain times. In IE, they will all maintain 100% width, in firefox for some reason they expand well beyond that causing scrolling from left to right which is annoying when trying to read a long thread.




Actualy that happens to me in IE, it's a "hick-up" in HTML not the browser or the forum software.





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Parody

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 4:07 pm Post subject:
GarVa wrote:
We cant just turn it on for html links... if we turn it on it brings other things (such as the ability to post images and such) which is why we do not stop anyone from using links via the workaround.


Oh, so it's a limitation of Lithium's editor? That's too bad. (I've been using the text-based editor since day 1, so I never noticed that people can't post links with the graphical one.)



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Eskie

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 4:09 pm Post subject:

GarVa wrote:
We cant just turn it on for html links... if we turn it on it brings other things (such as the ability to post images and such) which is why we do not stop anyone from using links via the workaround.


Thanks for clarifying that clickies are indeed tolerated by SOE - the post before almost made it sound as if making clickies was exploiting



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Rimy

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:28 pm Post subject:

GarVa wrote:
because we have a few hundred thousand users with an average of 38,000



Can we at least keep it a bit realistic?

On the topic of setting up anchor links, why would that be unintended? And crafty people? Try HTML novices. I started to post what crafty people would do, but in better judgement, decided to leave that out.



Would the real Rimy please stand up please stand up!

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Rimy

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:34 pm Post subject:
Well, ignore my question, as it was answered already.

As a 12 year veteran developer (professionally, 20 years all told), I'll say that it's very bad form to code anything on the web for a specific browser in mind. FireFox isn't the only concern. Opera, Amaya, anything Mozilla based, and even webTV (yes, sadly, it still exists) are all used to view the web. There are even text only browsers still in use.

It's not safe to assume that all windows users use IE. It's one of the first things I remove when I do a fresh install, as it's easily the least safe browser out there.



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GarVa

Joined: 22 Sep 2022
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:36 am Post subject:




Rimy wrote:




GarVa wrote:
because we have a few hundred thousand users with an average of 38,000





Can we at least keep it a bit realistic?

On the topic of setting up anchor links, why would that be unintended? And crafty people? Try HTML novices. I started to post what crafty people would do, but in better judgement, decided to leave that out.





You think I was exaggerating


Yesterday's Stats:


1,022,421 page views
46,939 Individual New Posts
3,580 New Threads


so no, I was not exaggerating.

Message Edited by GarVa on 03-31-2005 11:41 AM





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Rimy

Joined: 22 Sep 2022
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:42 am Post subject:

GarVa wrote:

Rimy wrote:

GarVa wrote:
because we have a few hundred thousand users with an average of 38,000



Can we at least keep it a bit realistic?

On the topic of setting up anchor links, why would that be unintended? And crafty people? Try HTML novices. I started to post what crafty people would do, but in better judgement, decided to leave that out.

You think I was exaggerating

Yesterday's Stats:

1,022,421 page views
46,939 Individual New Posts
3,580 New Threads
87,243 Logins

So no, I was not exaggerating.





Sorry, I read your other post as saying a few hundred thousand folks posted 38k times a day

I run and am a developer on a web farm for the county here, and that's certainly scalable, even on Windows servers (I wish we used UNIX though). One thing we stress, even when using .Net, is to make everything HTML 4.01 compatible. Of course, when using 3rd party forum code, that might not always be possible. But everything we do here, I test in IE, FF, Opera, and Konqueror. The CSS is the hardest part



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1963explorer
Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:57 am
#20




GarVa wrote:





Rimy wrote:




GarVa wrote:
because we have a few hundred thousand users with an average of 38,000





Can we at least keep it a bit realistic?

On the topic of setting up anchor links, why would that be unintended? And crafty people? Try HTML novices. I started to post what crafty people would do, but in better judgement, decided to leave that out.





You think I was exaggerating


Yesterday's Stats:


1,022,421 page views
46,939 Individual New Posts
3,580 New Threads


so no, I was not exaggerating.


Message Edited by GarVa on 03-31-2005 11:41 AM




Just out of curiosity: how many of those few hundred thousand usersare actually guests (non-players)? An average percentage will do. (Might be hard though to get the actual numbers because active players can read without logging in too.)



*****Yes, yes. Akkus have many good ideas. Akkus want to make milk and eggs more available to everyone as well. Akkus not tell you this idea though. You will steal it from Akkus.*****

So listen, so learn, so read on. You gotta turn the page, read the Book of Taliesyn. All the sciences of the world are collected in my breast, for I know what has been, what is now and what hereafter will occur..." (Blackmore/Evans/Lord/Paice)
GarVa
Thu Mar 31, 2005 12:09 pm
#21


I'm not getting your question, guest can't post so no post or threads would be started by non-players

and since guest are guests and not registered users they would not be included in a user count.

Message Edited by GarVa on 03-31-2005 01:11 PM





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1963explorer

Joined: 22 Sep 2022
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:12 pm Post subject:




GarVa wrote:



I'm not getting your question, guest can't post so no post or threads would be started by non-players

and since guest are guests and not registered users they would not be included in a user count.


Message Edited by GarVa on 03-31-2005 01:11 PM





Well some boards do keep track of both registered and unregistered users. I guess these boards don't. So yes, that kinda makes my question pointless.


Your post did say 'users' though and not 'registered users'. Your initial response was to the issue of 'too many searches' andguests may not be able to post, but they are able to search. So in that regard they should be included as 'users'. (And all I wanted to know is if they are a 'neglectable' percentage or not.)




*****Yes, yes. Akkus have many good ideas. Akkus want to make milk and eggs more available to everyone as well. Akkus not tell you this idea though. You will steal it from Akkus.*****

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cheshiremalk

Joined: 22 Sep 2022
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 7:11 pm Post subject:




GarVa wrote:





Rimy wrote:




GarVa wrote:
because we have a few hundred thousand users with an average of 38,000





Can we at least keep it a bit realistic?

On the topic of setting up anchor links, why would that be unintended? And crafty people? Try HTML novices. I started to post what crafty people would do, but in better judgement, decided to leave that out.





You think I was exaggerating


Yesterday's Stats:


1,022,421 page views
46,939 Individual New Posts
3,580 New Threads


so no, I was not exaggerating.


Message Edited by GarVa on 03-31-2005 11:41 AM




You didn't count those on your own.. right?
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EoZilbriss

Joined: 22 Sep 2022
Posts: 292
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:05 pm Post subject:
Any word yet on when Lithium is updating the forums version? I'm quite sick of having to either A) Remember HTML or B) Use IE for my graphical editing. /cry



Malora Qel-Droma
Shadowfire Day One Representation
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MajorXP

Joined: 22 Sep 2022
Posts: 561
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 12:27 am Post subject:

GarVa wrote:
Yep, I'm not sure when but I'm told Soon™









C O H A V
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Guild Founder - Legend of a New Republic <LNR> - Oldest Rebel Guild on Shadowfire
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Detailed account of my Wife testing NGE!! & How to use Firefox with the Forums
Pre-CU full template Jedi& Want to join LNR?
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