Commando Archive
Thread: The Real Problem with Grenades.
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KangX
Thu Feb 26, 2004 8:11 pm
#1
I keep reading posts (or responses) saying how sucky grenades are, so I've been anlyzing the problem and here's what I've come up with.
The problem isn't really the grenades themselves, by this I mean the stats on player produced grenades. They give us commandos the option of doing medium to high damage to a number of mobs at the same time. The HAM costs really aren't that bad if you look at them as effecting 2-3 targets (and when buffed it makes little difference anyway). There are some crafting issues such as difficulty/time for a weaponsmith to make them and they could sure use more charges per stack, but those things are on the crafting side of things and not the 'tossing explosives at hostiles' side.
Anyway the main problem I see is the game mechanics SOE is using for throwing grenades, especially when compared to how other thrown effects are handled.
Let's look at the 2 other "thrown" effects, Traps and Combat Medicines.
Traps;
They have nice effects against creatures (only), including Stun, Blind, Dizzy, Lowering defenses and Immoblilizing.
They are easy(cheap) to make by the profession that can use them
They are useful from about 40m to 0m
They can miss/fail to effect the target
They are single target only
They do no damage only State changes
Combat Medicines;
They damage and wound specific Stats
They are usable out to max combat range 64m (yeah I know they actually go farther but that's a bug they just haven't fixed)
They never miss
They are difficult (expensive/time consuming) to make by the profession that can use them.
They can effect single targets or large areas
They don't have immediate effect and need time to work
The effects can be halted by another profession (PvP only. In PvE mobs don't cure themselves, though that would be a niffty AI change)
I'd say those are the main points on Traps and Combat medicines.
Lets' look at grenades as they currently are.
Grenades;
They do instant damage of varing types (ie Blast, Heat, Acid, ect) with effects into the 2-3k range (before defenses)
They effect a small area
They are difficult(expensive/time consuming) to make by a profession other than the one that can use them.
They have an effective range (considering range mods) of roughly 15m
They can miss (anything outside of ideal range usually being a miss)
They can damage the wielder if thrown too close (to my knowledge the only weapon/effect in the game that can do this)
Basicly grenades as they stand now have more 'downsides' than 'upsides' and the fact you can "blow yourself up" is a real turn off for most would be grenade users.
The current grenade system wouldn't be too bad IF and this is the BIG IF a playercould target a spot on the map. This would eliminate most of the "blowing yourself up" and take care of most of the range issues at the same time. The problem is I'd be willing to bet that "map targeting" can't be done the way the game works now.
So here's what I would propose;
1) Leave most of the stats on greanades just as they are with the exception of the range mods (increase usable range though vary it between different types of grenades)
2) Hard cap the range at 40m, you can't throw at a target beyond a 40m range
3) Cap the range again at 10m, you can't throw at a target within 10m or less
4) Remove the potential for the wielder to damage themselves.
These changes would allow the grenade to become a medium ranged support weapon and increase there playability dramaticly.
And yes I know that throwing a grenade 40m (130ft) isn't overly realistic but neither is targeting an individual with one either, sometimes Game Mechanics has to win over any sort of realisim.
Anyway, those are my thoughts on grenades and how to make them better. Thanks for listening.
Xavien Dusk
Commando
Radiant
JawaJoey2
Thu Feb 26, 2004 11:28 pm
#2
Yeah. I'm no commando, butseriously, how do you miss with a grenade. That's like the deathstar missing.
Yakisoba1
Thu Feb 26, 2004 11:34 pm
#3
That looks like an excellent comparison of trap/grenade/CM weapon effects.
I hate it that you can be "hoist by your own petard" in this game.
Is it viable to "ground zero" with weapons that you have excellent armor against?
Assuming you can stop the target moving (KD/delay of some kind) can you drop back and lob a grenade?
Map targeting would be ideal, but I don't think it's possible either. What would work is having a grenade "aim point" on your radar. When you chuk a grenade, it would always go to that dstance, and blow up. Kind of like the death dot on a bombing HUD for a flight sim, if you follow me.
--Yak
Krayvex
Fri Feb 27, 2004 2:52 pm
#4
My biggest problem with them is accuracy. We've got a great weaponcrafter on the server and he makes some really good grenades. The damage is great. The speed is bearable. The blast size is huge. I wastesting them alot till I realized how much the non-targeted things in the blast area are missed. I throw at a patrol of 6 npc's outside a faction base and hit one. This happened often enough that I gave up. If it hit more reliably I'd probably atleast try them again.
Yrega
Sat Feb 28, 2004 12:54 pm
#5
Well this was the best comparison I've seen yet for grenades, and I totally agree.
Personally, I only use my FT and Rockets in PvP.
The Rocket launchers that I use have upwards of 4-5k max dmg, at a radius of 10m (that actually works). So I can see using them as feasible. Just make sure you are buffed 
.
DeusManus
Sat Feb 28, 2004 7:07 pm
#6
great post right here. i often wonder how one "dodges" a grenade, and how one is not automaticly kd/dizzied from the blast.
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