Commando Archive
Thread: Keep FT the way it is and dable away. No longer compromise with cries for nerf!
You know what I realized? Several other professions cry nerf about our FT and there for a bit, I felt for the ones that were master and getting beat by flame 4 dablers but I was wrong. The tests that Ivoni did befor leaving that showed everyone how a master pistoleer can match our damage through speed is out dated. We now have this thing called "mitigation". While we've talke about what it does, we never really talked seriously about what it means to the commando.
In case you didnt know, mitigation comes in 2 forms, ranged and melee. Each elite combat class has 1. We have ranged along with all other ranged classes, all brawlers have melee. each level decrease the RANGE of damage down for a weapon 20% more per level at a limit of 60% total, non-stackable, but you can have both melee and ranged.
In PvP melee mitigation has very little efect since the majority of damage does not come from their weapon, but from skills increasing damage and those skills say for TKA are not a +40 to +70 increase, they are a flat +70. Where 40 to 70, the range would be 30, 60% of 30 would be 18 so in turn damage would be actually 40 to 58, but since it is a flat +70, 70-70=0, 60% of 0 is 0, meaning we dont lose any of their max damage asside from the VK, and that is minor compared to the damage added in the skill lines.
I am not picking on TKA or brawler or anybody, in fact I got some TKA, some rifleman, and some pistoleer myself, I just want to show where we are no longer, as Ivoni proved, only balanced with other classes, but in PvP we are now weaker.
Lets jump to pistoleer while I'm talking about it and it is the opposite of us, speed over power. While ranged mitigation is more efffective against the pistoleer, it is still meager. Say you got a scout blaster, 60-150 damage. Range of damage = 90. Ranged mitigation 3 knocks off 54. That leaves you with 60-96 damage taken from them. Sounds like that makes a big diference but just hold that thought. Speed is the damage dealer here, not just actual damage, not to mention the diference specials make, for example, a pistol with OC2 is less than stopping shot in damage. Our FT with OC2 is equal to initial damage of our flame single.
So ranged mitigation, while more effective and noticeable, isnt that great, ehem, until we look at commando. Our range of damage is greater than 2* the max damage of a pistol even more. Say you got a 450-850 damage FT. Thats 400 damage range!!! Ranged mitigation 3 means 240 deducted, thats more than a whole pistole shot! That leaves us doing 450-610 damage with AP 0, which means we are slower than pistol, and a rifleman with AP3 is more effective at max damage, and lord forbid you let a TKA get on top of you even if you got melee mitigation, the results will not be pretty. This is the same for BHs LLC. Along with us both having crappy defenses. This on top of the testing Ivoni posted shows we are now under powered.
In short, mitigation has effected us more than anyone, and yet we still only have one real working weapon, and people are yelling nerf about it left and right. I was coming up with a compromise to try to keep everyone happy but now I say their cries are totally off key. In fact, give masters a bigger speed boost. its rediculous that I cant use my specials beyond 16m so ranged professions can stay 64m away and toy with me, and by the time I let a brawler within 16m, they can hit me, annd probably kill me befor the DOT kicks in.
This is a big reason why we seem god like in PvE but yet get our asses kicked PvP. I appologize totally for any empathy I had for the people that cried nerf,no matter what combat profession, if they got a brain, they can kill a FT wielding fool.
I think the problem lies in that it is very possible a Nerf to our FT is coming...most likely to the way the DoT works...
To minimize this potential damage of this Nerf many of us are trying to offer up solutions for the Dev's to consider rather then them come up with a "solution" on their own (bad idea)...99% of us would like to see things stay exactly where they are in regards to the FT...and if there weren't so many Nerf Herders out there screaming for a Nerf to our FT, most of us wouldn't care about FT dabblers...
The problem comes down to 2 fold...
1) Dabblers can have the full power and potential of the FT by just completing one tree of Commando...this has lead to many players dabbling in Commando for that very reason. Those dabblers utilize the FT often making it a more visible powerful weapon and there by leading to more cries of Nerf. One of the great things about this game is that you can find something in just about any profession worthwhile to dabble in...so most of us don't have a problem with dabblers...but if you take a look at other professions, pistoleer or rifleman for example, you'll notice that their best specials tree is separate from their speed and accuracies tree (which is done for a reason)..Why are all the best FT specials in the same tree as FT speed and accuracies for the Commando profession? Why is our profession different? Should these other professions take their Speed and Accuracies and put them in the same tree as their popular specials?
2) Master Commando has some added speed and accuracy added to it over Flame IV...but not enough to really be noticeable...With all the broken trees plaguing us, leaving our FT the primary weapon, is it fair to those who worked hard to gain Master Commando that they are just as powerful as someone who only gained Flame IV? Compare other combat professions and what they gain at the Master level as compared to their lower levels and re-examine Commando to see if it's properly balanced...
I for one support dabblers rights to do as they wish...but I also want to see more balance in our profession...I want to see my hard work made more worthwhile in the form of fixing the broken issues while at the same time making Master Commando more worthwhile...
I can promise this...over the next few patches, something about our FT will be Nerf'd...it's obvious with all the recent cries that this is the direction things are moving...unless combat balance changes are significant to make a substantial difference (which I doubt)...The question is, do you want to have a say in just how we get Nerf'd or leave it up to the Dev's to decide?
One popular opinion seems to be that if you give dabblers less of a reason to dabble the flame tree, we will see less dabblers over-all, and there by be less noticeable leading to less cries of Nerf...Whether this is a realistic idea, who knows...Doing this will also make Master look that much better is what is taken away from the flame tree is added to the Master Level. The profession loses nothing, just receives some shifting to make it more like other ranged professions.
Yes...it sucks for dabblers...but if we do nothing I can tell you what will come will suck harder!!! And Dabblers will be hurt anyway along with the rest of us...
Yeah Garvin, I know. Ive been one of those that have ben trying to come up with an alternative to a nerf, but just figured go about it a diferent way and try to build a case for us that we are not overpowered. I know, dispite Ivonis work it didnt save us from the 2.5 damage mod but was that intended to be a nerf, or just lne us up with the other ranged classes, in which they figured big weapon like a rifle but failed to consider, short range, even worse than a pistoleer in that we cant even fire specials beyond 16m.
The thing is, people who think we are overpowered are poor PvPers, and uninformed. We are quite easily kited like a melee class, and have less defenses I think to all except BH and carbineer. If we miss most meleers with our first shot, they can usually kill us. While flame singel looks impressive, it only amplifies the max damage about 5-6 times, while I've seen stopping shot amplify damage about 10 times.
You see, its all screams for nerf without ever using their brain first. I myself as a master commando, may one day fight another master commando. (imagine that) I perssonally know it would be russian roulette for me to charge in and try to flame him while he tries to flame me, so i'd probably try to use anopther ranged profession and kite him to see how well prepared he is for a 64m fight cause the fact is, Im not afraid of HWs or grenades, and Im not afraid of a FT outside of 16m.
0/0/4/0 Commando
2/1/3/4 TKA
0/0/4/4 Pistoleer
Exactly my thinking as well...The problem doesn't lie in Commando's being over powered...it relies in the actual PvP battle itself...Same thing is happening with TKA...
People get beat by a dabbler (we are all dabblers) and they blame the secondary professions strengths on one profession...I saw a post about a week back where someone wanted TKA's nerf'd for being over-powered in PvP...they said they lose everytime to a TKA...but when pressed on how the TKA can beat him when he plays a ranged character he said it was with Low Blow...a smuggler special...I about fell on the floor laughing...
The same holds true for Commado's unfortunately...People see that Master Commando or Grenedeer title and never consider what the secondary profession strengths might be...I use the Master Commando title all the time (proud to be one)...People who fight me often comment that I have a ton of Defenses...Does this mean that Commando's are over-powered when it comes to defenses? No...it's because I also have MTKA...plus I have a bunch of skill mods...that combination of factors is what makes my character high on defenses...The FT is a fine example...people claim we have a ranged special for our FT in Over Powered Shot...but that's not our special...it's a Marksman special that we can use...it doesn't apply a DoT & there are other weapons out there that can do more damage then our FT's using Over Powered Shot...
And people never weigh in on the restrictions we have to deal with to use our FT...they only feel a DoT and scream Nerf...they don't think of how they could have avoided the DoT...they would rather round out the strategy of their template by Nerf'ing others instead of analyzing the weaknesses in their own and pushing for improvements.
What really gets me lately is the thought that we are a Hybrid Profession...We take more skill points then any elite profession and we are forced into Melee ranged to use any of our specials...We are a ranged profession that fights like Melee professions. Our biggest weakness is Kiting from other ranged professions, yet a profession like Pistoleer get's more Melee Defense then we do? Does that make any sense? A pistoleer never has to get within Melee range of their opponent to use ANY of their specials...Ranged defense makes sense...but Melee? I'm not calling for a Nerf of Pistoleer...I just think we should have more defenses (especially Melee) then any of the ranged professions since we are forced to fight Melee range...I also strongly believe that since we are basically the inbetween point of Melee and Ranged Professions, that our specials should work at a range inbetween as well...32m instead of 16m...Our restrictions more then make up for this type of change...PLUS, if the SOE introduces a kit to put out the Flame DoT without fixing our weapons we will be basically useless again as we once were...
What is REALLY sad is we came to this conclusion for free while the devs testers couldn't figure this out and their getting paid LOL
I helped I dunno how many people about their rides disappearing and such cause I STOPPED waiting for the devs to fix jack and I went out and done my own own testing? want to know why we have probs? look at the mimimum and maximum requirements that is the FIRST mistake the Maximum is the actual Minimum.. this is just among the mirad things I discovered while testing out the probs OTHER people have... except for bikes going poof, my char sliding away from the chair and the OLD pink bar prob.
While grouping in the days of old I had absolutely NO problem with things going poof or disappearing or nothing ..wanna know a good ideal why? cause I was moderate and the Devs expected the same we push and they crack under the pressure.... I figured that out a month after I started playing I kept things moderated.. a small house furnished nice but not overwhelming and boom no prob. I started having prob with my home loading and all and other things and why?? cause I have too much stuff for theirend to handle we ALL do; is it our faults? nope.
Prob why I enjoyed myself with this game so much is cause I saw and advoided these probs till recently...
I totally agree with the original post! Totally!
Lately Ive been reviewing defenses of many major classes, including my own, while waiting for some crafting things to be finished (master architect on valcyn who recently just got bombarded with 2 million cr worth of orders =o...3rd week being master, and also waiting till the combat changes roll by so I can enjoy me master com again)
anyways, as time before has proven..we're crappy in PvP..and we're crappier now
Take this for example:
First time in 2 months i did faction PvP...well...I was down in 2 unarmed hits that delt 1k in damage TOTAL...i had armor on that blocked 400..yet..before i knew it..i was incapped!! definately, something a bit fishy here i must say (the guy also Dbed me when he himself became incapped)
Anyways, the first hit was around 450 dmg, second around 600 or so, and it was in 3 hams...but i got incapped via hp..which i might add is 1,000 ham
But get this: I shot him with THREE, count em THREE specials from my flamer..2 missed, 1 hit for a measly 830 ham..which was spread out across action/hp, and of which he healed a few seconds later (and ran into the cantina as well) Prior, and in between i whipped out my 1.3 spd LP..shot off 5 or so stopping shots, none hit (all missed, dodged, and counterattacked)
So despite being Master, wearing armor, and shooting off over 8 specials..i did 830 dmg..while this guy does 1k (actually 600 dmg after armor absorbs) and somehow gets me incapped
Time after time i see this, and also myself experience..and time after time i get even more disgusted at the ppl who think we're uber and powerful (and obviously they're disillusional or need glasses)...of course, many times we do own in PvP..but its generally with the help of skill mods from other proffessions...I myself, is essentially a Pure commando...the only other combat proffession i dabbled in was pistoleer: pistol techniques, and thats JUST for the specials for my LP (if we had our own tree, i wouldnt even be a pistoleer)...which i might add has been lucrative after the last few patches (pistol techniques have a crap load of special defenses)...however im sorely lacking in marksmanship for Pistols..which im ok with
but, the only ranged/melee (which to me matters most over special defenses..cept KD and dizzy) defenses i have are strictly from commando and marksman
so...the commandos that I think these people are always yelling *Nerf!* are the ones who are not strictly commando..which is apparent to us, but not to them
and second to last, this shows how sorely our actual proffession is lacking in...if we *need* to dabble in other proffessions, there is a MAJOR problem...same goes for BH as well, hybrids have already "dabbled" to get to where they are now, WHY should they be forced to dabble MORE?
and lastly, in response to melee and ranged defense, surprisingly I think our defenses are relativity pretty good..except for one GREVIOUS error:
Look at TKA, they get defense acuity no? thats a defense that helps improve chances of dodging or counterattacking an attack.....look at pistoleer, they get +105 dodge (which is an advantage, plus the range+specials of pistols, and their special defense mods..their ONLY weakness as far as im concerned is their MAJOR lack in ranged def..but dodge GLADLY makes up for this). If a player has +105 dodge...isnt that a bit hard to hit him? yea..and its a lot harder for commandos more so.....then look at another melee class, the pikeman..he has block (dunno if this can block ranged however)
But the point stated, these samples of proffessions having special skill mods that are sometimes more important than melee/ranged defense, and either a counter to them, or not having them is what hybrid proffessions are sorely lacking. Which would you choose? Tougher defense, or being harder to hit? Id say being harder to hit
As far as im concerned with commando defenses, I think we would profit from having a special added set of skill mods that make general hvy weapon aim more accurate, or some sort of countering to dodging or blocking etc, or a new form of "commando dodge" that will give us an edge over the regular elite classes (which..btw, we should have...)
For more proof that we need something like a dodge or counterattacking mod:
Pistoleers have 3 advantages, 1 disadvantage (these stated above)
TKA has ALOT more ranged def mods than most ranged classes (*cough* commandos, and BH *cough*), they have a "counterattack mod" -defense acuity-, and then they do KILLER damage up close...but, their only weakness really..is just being a melee class (ie being kited)
Commandos...1 advantage: Heavy Firepower (sometimes..:/), Disadvantages: Low defenses in general, some of the poorest accuracies in the game, Longest delay in specials
However, since we're still somewhat broken...our hvy firepower isnt really that hvy..(dot really does the work..), our LP..whats suppoused to be the working horse of the proffession has no line, and of course..the expenses of being a commando with hvy weapons. If properly and utterly fixed, having hvy firepower is great!, i would gladly take a 1 : 3 in advantages to disadvantages rather than a 3 : 1...however..this is life, this is wallgreens (err...we live no where near Perfectville! 
)...and life doesnt always work out..hence, our firepower doesnt make up for the disadvantages.
Besides, TKA takes 29 + 63 skill pts to master (92 skills pts) same with pistoleer...commandos.. 77+29+63 (169 skill pts)..its worse for BH's but at least they have more than one advantage on their side!...nevertheless, yes..ALL CLASSES NEED WEAKNESSES, but don't you think for being a Hybrid class, and taking the 2nd most skill pts to master..DONT you think we should have more than on advantages to being a class?? I sure do. And I do not believe adding more defense for ranged/melee will work, thats just a temp. fix...what we really need is a counterattack mod to counter dodges or defense acuity and the such OR gain those type of mods (how about we get some defense acuity? since after all..we had to master unarmed!) Some sort of mod along these lines would help the accuracy, and our chances for survival in PvP with just being ourselves, rather than having to dabble or master other proffessions to actually fight well in PvP!
And with all that said...really off topic..but just dawned on me...if the devs have plans for something like this..throw in some terrain negotiation for BH's too!
Well..back to crafting and waiting =o
And on a side note..because of that PvP incident..im glad im going to dabble slightly in TKA to get some def acuity, melee mit, and some more ranged/melee def
Thats the thing starnick, while having defensive acuity, ranged defense is, sorta like dodge but without the motions, an increased chance to being missed according to the description of it in game, and as I have seen since I have precision striking 4, and thats why you didnt hit with your LP if you dont have the accuracy mods of pistoleer at all. This is reiculous that my commando weapon is unefected by me being master commando but rather another profession. I have been forced to dabble as well so I got the specials for LP but not the accuracy cause I wasnt going for that, it was just an advantage. Instead I went for their defense to status effect.
I am sure to keep Teras Kasi Warior over my head when PvPing just to try to say "Hey, I'm not just a commando so dont start bitchin!"
I would like to take the accuracy line in pistoleer, but I find it more beneficial to get some more ranged defense from rifleman, partially because I'd be happy if they took the pistol specials away from me and gave us our own for LP and would still use the 2 pistoleer lines I got for defense.
But thats a commando dabling in pistoleer, its a whole new bal lgame for a pistoleer master to just get novice commando for the LP. It gives them an exotic damage type, and the most accurate pistol at 64m which makes them far more powerful than a commando dabling in pistoleer, in fact, they do RL damage over a series of shots, if not more, without the high HAM that a RL does to us and at better accuracy while running. This leads me to believe, and even forsake my pistoleer abilities, to remove the cross mod of pistoleer to the LP, and I guess to be fair smuggler specials would have to go to, but really I dont see being as big of problem since smuggler gets no accuracy either.
There is a lot to say about how our profession is broken, and how the FT doesnt make us on level with everyone else, any way you look at it we either must dabble or we are only even semi-efective in our 16m radius of death.
The thing I would liek to add is, OK, so we'er a damage dealer class, so maybe no more defenses for us, but outsde of 16m wheres that damage at? Or. put us up against a melee class within 16m and then lets see who does the damage. Really, I think or defenses can stay where they are since we are kinda supposed to be a damage class, but if anyone has a brain, they know they can match us for damage over a few shots, and do it from 64m.
We really need, more than anything, like garvin said, a 64m weapon. And I meann of our own, not something like the LP that makes me even more dependent on other skills.
I'd almost settle some of our issues by letting us use our specials at 32m...that way we are more then a Melee ranged profession, but still not as strong (ranged wise) as other ranged professions...We are an inbetween profession so we should have an inbetween range...
I also think we could get rid of a lot of Nerf Herders if we saw 2 changes...
1) Flame DoT stopped when the Commando who fired it get's DB'd...no after fight related deaths....a common complaint.
2) If there was 1 item out there to put outa Flame Dot...but something not easy to obtain...that's why I push for Chef's to be able to make this item...Currently Master Chefs can make something called FlameOut...and contrary to popular rumor, it does not currently put out the DoT...but if it did then the NERF Herders would have one less thing to complain about...and Master Chef's are rare on servers so FlameOut wouldn't be easily available so much that it harms our capabilities too much...I know everyone always says Water is that way to put out the DoT...but realistically, not everyone has easy access to Water or can make it to Water in time before being incap'd...and thanks to a bug, once incap'd they are pretty much dead since everytime they get back up they are incap'd immediately again (3rd time equals death)...therefore a hard to get "FlameOut" items feels reasonable....
Take out those 2 equations and then we would only have to deal with the NERF'ers who think the DoT is too powerful or shouldn't Incap...and there are enough arguements and restrictions out there that those can easily be torn down...
With those 2 ideas in place we could then focus on the issues internally regarding Flame Dabblers and Master Commandos as well as our broken trees...
See, Im no longer concerned with dablers in the flame tree for one reason, they could do a lot better.
An example would be CHs who have flame 4, a popular combo but really a foolish one, you get no defenses and the damage is no better than some other things ou could do.
Heres what I suggested to my CH friend at work and he was realing in excitement when he realized how strong he would be even without his pets.
Master CH, Master rifleman with no ranged support however (big deal), and Fencer 4-0-0-0. This gives him full ranged damage mitigation, over 120 defenses to melee/ranged, and he has all his pets, along with master riflemans multitude of damage including an AP3 weapon. To me that is a lot better than having flame 4 and just points enough for one other line.