Commando Archive
Thread: My Vision of the HAR- a Proposal
Devs have previously stated that combined FT tree with HAR tree would be too difficult, so the HAR line is here to stay. My vision of the HAR is as a weapon to use against hard (armored) targets (where the FT is for soft targets (metal doesn't burn well FYI)). Here is how I would like to see it fixed:
1. AP 2 (its a Heavy Acid Rifle)
2. keep damage and speed lower than FT (but 20sec delay on HAR specials? come on! Lower that.)
3. DoT from the specials that reduces armor resistance over time as a temporary condition like a bleed
4. Normal shot should do "wound" damage to armor and clothes (i.e. normal shot hits the condition of armor and clothes)
5. Keep range short but longer than FT... 30m?
In essence, it should NOT be a flamethrower with crappy graphics. It should be useful for cutting through armored targets. Use flamer when resitances have been cut down some.
(and keep the x2.5 penalty!)
Just one man's opinion,
Zedar Xang, Commando, Bloodfin
(and keep the x2.5 penalty!)
You had me until that line there. That is the first thing that needs to be fixed with Commandos. And, by fixed, I mean removed.
I know the x2.5 is an unpopular stance on my part among commandos, but I like having lots of power with an achilles heel. I like the danger. I like having to switch to a melee weapon to survive in certain circumstances. It gives purpose to the unarmed branch we are forced to learn.
But regardless, I'd still like to hear criticism/comment on my HAR proposal.
As a footnote, I think my HAR proposal will compliment the FT line very very nicely when they finely fix the flame DoT to be reduced by heat resistances. It will reduce the effectiveness of grenedeers while increasing the effectiveness of those who don't do only one line in commando (since the HAR will lower resistances, paving the way for a devestating FT attack).
Zedar
OK why should flame DOT be reduced by heat resist while a bleed shot is not reduced by anything llike that. Maybe make it possible for BEs to make protection from burn like protection from bleed.
As far as that keep the 2.5 damage mod crap goes, how do you expect to get responses based on your subject when you stir that up.
IMO I shouldnt have to be able to use other weapons, even though I do now with the mod. Why invest all those skill points in this profession to be forced to use another? You say it gives a point to learning unarmed 4 but unarmed 4 is crap. Actually all the unarmed is crap until you get TK then it gets a good jump and is more usefull, I know, I got TK. Also, it more demotes the point of learning unarmed, cause unarmed is supposed to be there so you DON'T cry like a little girl when someone punches you.
You want an achiles heal? Well suggest that the FT only shoots at 16m even without specials. Then that leads me to my idea on the acid rifle. FT is our power, make it 16m. Acid rifle is our reach make it more like a rifle at 64m with a diferent type of special maybe like what you were talking about where it weakens the armor temporarily for you to shoot your next shot through resists.
What benefit is Ap2 when acid damage bypasses the armor and defences for a good 70% of the enemies in the game? The fact is that for the sake of balance it'd be better to have a large maximum damage without AP since you don't actually need Ap2 anyway. When the devs look at weapons they always have a trade off between multi-purpose use and power. Take a look at the T21, it's a weaker damage weapon with a faster speed because it has a huge amount of flexibility with it's Ap3. For an energy weapon Ap3 is valuable as hell however Acid weapons typical bypass all armor anyway so the Ap2 wouldn't be very useful and would mean that the weapons maximum power needs to be reduced.
Given the options you'd see more benefit from no armor piercing (since the weapon already bypasses armor for the majority of the time) and simply make it a really hard hitting heavy weapon, maybe even with some splash damage by default.
Techno-Hic: I flat out disagree with you on the x2.5 mod. You want your cake and to eat it too. Every profession needs balance. To increase the power of the Commando offense, it must in turn be willing to accept some sort of weakness. The flame DoT must be resisted b/c it is the most powerful bleed and is not easily curable (actually without a doubt all bleeds in the game should be resisted by the targets armor resists, period). Not to mention our burning bleeds stack... Moreover, unarmed 4, by itself, is a great defense to the x2.5 dam, espeically with CoB. I've been using it with great success. They aren't going to drop the unarmed 4 requirement. Its part of being a commando. So it should have a purpose (defense against a melee mob while they burn). However, i like your suggestion of the FT having a max range of 16m, and would gladly drop the x2.5 issue for that balance.
Your right- i shouldn't have brought up the x2.5 as many people will be unable to ignore it.
Tal-N: its been said before, but 70% of enemies being vulnerable to acid damage is in fact a myth. Especially in PvP where composite armor is so prevalant. Hence the AP2.
Any suggestion to turn the HAR into a long range FT i find to be utterly boring. Hence my proposal to make HAR unique and complimentary with the FT line.
Zedar
Tal-N: its been said before, but 70% of enemies being vulnerable to acid damage is in fact a myth. Especially in PvP where composite armor is so prevalant. Hence the AP2.
I came up with a list of over 30enemies across a variety of planets all of which were vulnerable or weak to acid all within a quick trip from one planet to the next and spending 10 mins looking around, I have to fact on that other topic plus I'm a bio-engineer on ahazi so I know what is out there like the back of my hand. I didn't say PvP, the point is that PvP is a totally seperate issue and we already have the flamer and disposable weapons which give one shot kills in PvP. Why waste the opitunity for a decent PvE one besides the flamer?
Infact if you want PvP then take the bounty hunter profession cause it's what they're aimed towards really.
zark, by saying "I like the danger" for the 2.5X modifier...lol that cracked me up 
...its almost like saying i like being shot with a 44-pounder! 
but seriously..yes we should have a drawback, but the 2.5X isnt logical..we get the same mod that riflemen get..yet 40m closer...
anyways, i agree if the devs cant combine then make HAR different (or just take HAR out and replace the tree rather than combining or fixing) - cept the part where HAR would target condition of clothing/armor..heh..this would get suuuuch a nasty outcry from the ppl already raging against death decay 
and just a bit ofa comment...i find it odd that the devs say its too hard to combine trees, and the possibility of combining the FT/HAR specials..namely since pistol specials/carbine/rifle can work on MANY different types of varients, and we already have a multiple tree with many skill mods that consist of several weapons (our hvy weapons line) -- i would only presume that the coding may take some creative twists and turns to get it right...and if it does take a nice amount of effort from the dev team...they should at *least* try it considering they haven't made a huge class-breaking effort in fixing our proffession (sure sure, the class-breaking efforts were before release..but..the devs did that, and totally ruined the proffession at the last minute making it near impossible to play until the end of summer..)
First off what you mention about the reducing armor condition will not fly with many,including me, because that could be used as grieffing(sp?). I do however agree with your AP2 comment but I think if they are going to make it with that extreme that it should in fact not get a DOT and the ideal range for the spcial being used be moved back atleast 20m(same would go for our LLC brothern although keeping the LLC at AP1).
I would settle for AP1 and the speed of special attacks to be GREATLY reduced. I also do not really HATE the 2.5x melee damage because I can just switch to the LP and happily shoot it without the concern.
its true the damaging of the condition of armor/clothes would be incredibly unpopular, although it was part of the dev's oringinal intention with the HAR...
I think the key point, besides ap2, is the bleed that reduces armor resistance. Would make the commandos have a specialized role in most PvP, PvE encounters.
Zedar
What benefit is Ap2 when acid damage bypasses the armor and defences for a good 70% of the enemies in the game? The fact is that for the sake of balance it'd be better to have a large maximum damage without AP since you don't actually need Ap2 anyway. When the devs look at weapons they always have a trade off between multi-purpose use and power. Take a look at the T21, it's a weaker damage weapon with a faster speed because it has a huge amount of flexibility with it's Ap3. For an energy weapon Ap3 is valuable as hell however Acid weapons typical bypass all armor anyway so the Ap2 wouldn't be very useful and would mean that the weapons maximum power needs to be reduced.
Given the options you'd see more benefit from no armor piercing (since the weapon already bypasses armor for the majority of the time) and simply make it a really hard hitting heavy weapon, maybe even with some splash damage by default.