Commando Archive

Thread: Commando to be flat on our backs....again....

RankorCity
Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:36 pm
#1

Been waiting to post this in the Commando forums....


Something that needs to be addressed:


With the upcoming heal "nerf" via action costs, Commando, once put on their back, may not be able to recover....


Add the following:

High action cost of healing: 16-20 percent, depending on which one you use

High action cost of KD recovery: 25 percent

High action cost of our weapons: 100 SAC minimum

======================================

Commando, on our backs, unable to get up....Again...



Anxiously awaiting the Firefly MMO
Discuss it at www.firefly-mmo.com
StarNick
Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:38 pm
#2

Yeah the new healing costs are something fierce, and is a troubling concern being discussed on a few forums here...



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Raptor2k1
Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:38 pm
#3

On the positive side, this means that it'll be a lot easier for a pure combat commando to take out a healer hybrid...



Kyeran Halkyon

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SWG Commando Forum


RankorCity
Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:48 pm
#4






StarNick wrote:
Yeah the new healing costs are something fierce, and is a troubling concern being discussed on a few forums here...





People complained about healing being unbalanced in relation to Jedi (I'm not going to go into a diatribe about this since it isnt the Jedi forums)...So they made the heals stronger by simply increasing the numbers....Nevermind, that there is a mind cost to each heal, and ALREADY a slight action cost (same as there was a slight mind cost to firing a weapon)....


So to try and balance healing, rather than tweak the actual healing numbers, the institute an action cost to healing? Where is the balance in that?


Actionso thatyou can fire, recovery from KD.


Mind so that you can heal your health.


It WAS balanced.


Now action is getting saddled with firing your weapons/swinging your melee weapon, recovering from KD, AND healing???


It makes no sense. They may as well remove the mind bar, and have only Health and Action.


Message Edited by RankorCity on 10-10-2005 06:49 PM



Anxiously awaiting the Firefly MMO
Discuss it at www.firefly-mmo.com
Wolfmann31
Mon Oct 10, 2005 5:38 pm
#5






Raptor2k1 wrote:
On the positive side, this means that it'll be a lot easier for a pure combat commando to take out a healer hybrid...






A healer hybrid, that can rather easy, despite action cost, can still outheal the damage we can dish out, while we as pure combatants, have no way to outheal their damage.


Because the damage dished out, is not related to how pure combat you are, but your CL 54 gun and your "CL 54" specials. That is why healer hybrids are working so well in PvE and PvP.


You dish out almost the same damage as a healer hybrid as a pure combatant. Until they correct that, the one with the healing hybrid, wins. Despite actioncost of heals.






RK-31
In memory of Stormtrooper Detachment Epsilon

We will not become a shadow of our former self

When the Star Wars world ends, my reason for being here ends. Thank you Helios_SOE for making that clear to me
All Access Pass Status: 4'th of July cancelation
MatuVonnegut
Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:09 pm
#6






Wolfmann31 wrote:





Raptor2k1 wrote:
On the positive side, this means that it'll be a lot easier for a pure combat commando to take out a healer hybrid...






A healer hybrid, that can rather easy, despite action cost, can still outheal the damage we can dish out, while we as pure combatants, have no way to outheal their damage.


Because the damage dished out, is not related to how pure combat you are, but your CL 54 gun and your "CL 54" specials. That is why healer hybrids are working so well in PvE and PvP.


You dish out almost the same damage as a healer hybrid as a pure combatant. Until they correct that, the one with the healing hybrid, wins. Despite actioncost of heals.








I'll agree with that, currently there is no benefit with going combat/combat except more specials. There's suppose to be strengths and weekness depending on the professions you choose right? The only benefit of combat/combat is more specials, unless you're commando. I had to pick up master doc in beta just so i could do stuff, despite the huge number of people i see on there everyone wants to get their quest done and it's insanely difficult to find a group.


would removing DOC from cl lvl's help? Perhaps just a huge increase in mind cost? Or a considerable damage bonus to combat/combat characters?



Matu Vonnegut
Master Commando/Master Rifleman/Pistoleer 0404
RoH

LEEROY!!!!!!!!!
Wolfmann31
Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:32 pm
#7






MatuVonnegut wrote:





Wolfmann31 wrote:





Raptor2k1 wrote:
On the positive side, this means that it'll be a lot easier for a pure combat commando to take out a healer hybrid...






A healer hybrid, that can rather easy, despite action cost, can still outheal the damage we can dish out, while we as pure combatants, have no way to outheal their damage.


Because the damage dished out, is not related to how pure combat you are, but your CL 54 gun and your "CL 54" specials. That is why healer hybrids are working so well in PvE and PvP.


You dish out almost the same damage as a healer hybrid as a pure combatant. Until they correct that, the one with the healing hybrid, wins. Despite actioncost of heals.








I'll agree with that, currently there is no benefit with going combat/combat except more specials. There's suppose to be strengths and weekness depending on the professions you choose right? The only benefit of combat/combat is more specials, unless you're commando. I had to pick up master doc in beta just so i could do stuff, despite the huge number of people i see on there everyone wants to get their quest done and it's insanely difficult to find a group.


would removing DOC from cl lvl's help? Perhaps just a huge increase in mind cost? Or a considerable damage bonus to combat/combat characters?






No. Simple fixes, would toss things more out of balance.


Make healers heal less, and you nerf PvE so much that it's unplayable, because mobs are balanced to the current "healing" setup so to speak.


Make healers go out of action or mind, and you do the same. PvE is still balanced in the way of damage, regeneration and ham, of to how much damage we can withstand before the mob die.


Make Combat/combat do more damage, and you unbalances PvE, because mobs are balanced in the case of HAM, Regen and damage output, to the "survivability" of a healer and the "damagelevels" that we get. Thus, a combat/combat who gains a increase in damage to balance against healers, will mopp the floor in PvE.



simple fixes, cannot help at this point. they failed, and now we might look at a total system overhaul, because everything needs to be rebalanced if they want it to work.


1. Balance damage output for PvE.


2. Balance healing for PvE


3. balance defenses for PvE


4. balance mobs to new player damage output, healing and defenses vs mob ham, specials, damage, defensesand regeneration.


5. Cry in a corner, because you now need to balance PvP to the above.






RK-31
In memory of Stormtrooper Detachment Epsilon

We will not become a shadow of our former self

When the Star Wars world ends, my reason for being here ends. Thank you Helios_SOE for making that clear to me
All Access Pass Status: 4'th of July cancelation
Wearrapipple
Tue Oct 11, 2005 6:09 am
#8

I have recently re-specced from MC/MBH/Pistolsxxx4 to MC/MBH/NoviceCM and the current difference is quite staggering. This is most noticeable when taking on Boss Level MBH marks - usually combat level 82 and HAM between 20-30k.


Pre- re-spec I was really struggling with the bottom end of this type of mob, using up maybe 4-6 stim Ds. With Ruby Biel I was finding that thigs were getting very hary toward the last of the fight as Ruby comes in stacks of 4 meaning that my stack was often running out. Of course, forward planning and having more than 1 stack on my toolbar would have been the clever thing to do...


However, when facing the higher end mobs I was simply running out of stomach for the Ruby. Without heals the game was up.


I bit the bullet and re-specced. So far I have only come up against the 20k HAM marks but with bacta jab, bacta toss and bacta spray I can heal up pretty quick. No need at all to use any of my stim Ds. I am quite confident that a 30k HAM mark would be possible.


On the downside I have lost Stopping Shot (which was great for running away if I was about to be sent to the cloners!) quick draw (which I can live without) and Body Shot (my 2nd most powerful special which was my follow up to Critical shot) Plus the basic marksman specials (except xxx4) are off the menu. This means a drop in damage output but this has been more than compensated by the ability to heal.


When considering the impact action costs for heals will have on my toon, I noticed when I was a combat/combat my mind barely dropped at all while my action was often leaving me with the "Too Tired" message. Now with medic my action bar is generally getting a good break and seldom drops below half while mind is dropping to about the same level. A really tough mark needing lots of heals sees mind dropping below low while action has regenerated back to the top.


The advent of extra action cost for heals will mean that I will rarely see another special again, other than the HW innate special of the weapon equipped. Given the exorbitant cost of HW SAC as it is, I can see precisely where the "flat on our backs" heading of this thread is pointing to.


If combat/combat does become a viable template once more thenI will be happy enough but it strikes me that if combat/medic is still going to be the most effective template then, really, commandos can forget about being effective.


Not that we are, currently, anyway.



Avizandum - Ahazi - Rebel Commando - GDC
Blaiser - Bloodfin - Imperial Doctor - unguilded
Kesslan
Tue Oct 11, 2005 6:19 am
#9

well commandoes are pretty effective in the right circumstances. But yeah. I dont much like the sounds of the changes to healing when it comes to commandoes in there. For a while I tried straight up damage. MBH/MCom with some pistols for stopping shot.


It worked allright but it just got to the point I was being beat simply because I couldnt keep up in the healing. So I droped the pistols for CM skills. Change the action costs (The mind costs dont really affect me) and it'll really bite. It also seems to me that it'll really hurt smuggler/CMs too (Whcih I have one as well actually) as I found most smuggler specials for waht ever reason also suck up a fair bit of mind. Coupled with CM it gets rather nasty at times. But then unlike any other class I can just paralyze my opponent. Regen, take time to state him up abit. Regen some more and then go back to shooting. Or just run away at that point.


Commando on the other hand. Has none of these options. And I'm rather dubious about the damage increases really balancing us out. But time will tell I suppose. I'm willing to take the changes as they come. And then **modbot** about what needs to be fixed later on.





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MatuVonnegut
Tue Oct 11, 2005 6:32 am
#10






Wolfmann31 wrote:





MatuVonnegut wrote:





Wolfmann31 wrote:





Raptor2k1 wrote:
On the positive side, this means that it'll be a lot easier for a pure combat commando to take out a healer hybrid...






A healer hybrid, that can rather easy, despite action cost, can still outheal the damage we can dish out, while we as pure combatants, have no way to outheal their damage.


Because the damage dished out, is not related to how pure combat you are, but your CL 54 gun and your "CL 54" specials. That is why healer hybrids are working so well in PvE and PvP.


You dish out almost the same damage as a healer hybrid as a pure combatant. Until they correct that, the one with the healing hybrid, wins. Despite actioncost of heals.








I'll agree with that, currently there is no benefit with going combat/combat except more specials. There's suppose to be strengths and weekness depending on the professions you choose right? The only benefit of combat/combat is more specials, unless you're commando. I had to pick up master doc in beta just so i could do stuff, despite the huge number of people i see on there everyone wants to get their quest done and it's insanely difficult to find a group.


would removing DOC from cl lvl's help? Perhaps just a huge increase in mind cost? Or a considerable damage bonus to combat/combat characters?






No. Simple fixes, would toss things more out of balance.


Make healers heal less, and you nerf PvE so much that it's unplayable, because mobs are balanced to the current "healing" setup so to speak.


Make healers go out of action or mind, and you do the same. PvE is still balanced in the way of damage, regeneration and ham, of to how much damage we can withstand before the mob die.


Make Combat/combat do more damage, and you unbalances PvE, because mobs are balanced in the case of HAM, Regen and damage output, to the "survivability" of a healer and the "damagelevels" that we get. Thus, a combat/combat who gains a increase in damage to balance against healers, will mopp the floor in PvE.



simple fixes, cannot help at this point. they failed, and now we might look at a total system overhaul, because everything needs to be rebalanced if they want it to work.


1. Balance damage output for PvE.


2. Balance healing for PvE


3. balance defenses for PvE


4. balance mobs to new player damage output, healing and defenses vs mob ham, specials, damage, defensesand regeneration.


5. Cry in a corner, because you now need to balance PvP to the above.








in this case then adding action costs was the quickest and easiest way to even things out. with heals taking action now, when you're fighting that person their damage output has now been cut in a similar way that combat/combat heal output is cut. This should work fine. I'll enjoy laughing at all the docs that don't have as big an advantage anymore.



Matu Vonnegut
Master Commando/Master Rifleman/Pistoleer 0404
RoH

LEEROY!!!!!!!!!
Eunuya
Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:44 am
#11






MatuVonnegut wrote:





Wolfmann31 wrote:





MatuVonnegut wrote:





Wolfmann31 wrote:





Raptor2k1 wrote:
On the positive side, this means that it'll be a lot easier for a pure combat commando to take out a healer hybrid...






A healer hybrid, that can rather easy, despite action cost, can still outheal the damage we can dish out, while we as pure combatants, have no way to outheal their damage.


Because the damage dished out, is not related to how pure combat you are, but your CL 54 gun and your "CL 54" specials. That is why healer hybrids are working so well in PvE and PvP.


You dish out almost the same damage as a healer hybrid as a pure combatant. Until they correct that, the one with the healing hybrid, wins. Despite actioncost of heals.








I'll agree with that, currently there is no benefit with going combat/combat except more specials. There's suppose to be strengths and weekness depending on the professions you choose right? The only benefit of combat/combat is more specials, unless you're commando. I had to pick up master doc in beta just so i could do stuff, despite the huge number of people i see on there everyone wants to get their quest done and it's insanely difficult to find a group.


would removing DOC from cl lvl's help? Perhaps just a huge increase in mind cost? Or a considerable damage bonus to combat/combat characters?






No. Simple fixes, would toss things more out of balance.


Make healers heal less, and you nerf PvE so much that it's unplayable, because mobs are balanced to the current "healing" setup so to speak.


Make healers go out of action or mind, and you do the same. PvE is still balanced in the way of damage, regeneration and ham, of to how much damage we can withstand before the mob die.


Make Combat/combat do more damage, and you unbalances PvE, because mobs are balanced in the case of HAM, Regen and damage output, to the "survivability" of a healer and the "damagelevels" that we get. Thus, a combat/combat who gains a increase in damage to balance against healers, will mopp the floor in PvE.



simple fixes, cannot help at this point. they failed, and now we might look at a total system overhaul, because everything needs to be rebalanced if they want it to work.


1. Balance damage output for PvE.


2. Balance healing for PvE


3. balance defenses for PvE


4. balance mobs to new player damage output, healing and defenses vs mob ham, specials, damage, defensesand regeneration.


5. Cry in a corner, because you now need to balance PvP to the above.








in this case then adding action costs was the quickest and easiest way to even things out. with heals taking action now, when you're fighting that person their damage output has now been cut in a similar way that combat/combat heal output is cut. This should work fine. I'll enjoy laughing at all the docs that don't have as big an advantage anymore.





How about combat/combat getting a boost to the action bar the way the health bar is increased. That way, a heal hybrid willstill use a normal amount of action for just attacks and mind for heals, whereas a pure fighter can keep up with heavy-hitting specials. This seems to be a little closer to tactics and playstyle flexibility--ironman vs. boxing.



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BloodMonk
Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:13 am
#12

seeing our sac and speed, devs should just raise the damage cap on ALL commando weapons (but especially those classified as heavies as they can't even be pup'd)

Message Edited by BloodMonk on 10-12-2005 10:14 AM



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