Commando Archive
Thread: A Mature Discussion of Roles
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Phenix1050
Mon Sep 19, 2005 3:00 pm
#1
First off, let me say...I'ma Ranger. *puts up tomato and rocket-proof shield* Okay. Now that we got that out of the way.
I know a lot of you are upset at the very idea of Rangers getting explosives. I understand that. But here's where we need to seperate commando's from explosives in general. I agree, this does appear, at first blush, to be a serious infringement upon your skills. Again however, I think it's a bit too all-encompassing to say that Commandos are the only profession with any right to anything that goes boom. Commandos are the masters of heavy weaponry, and that does include explosives such as rockets and grenades.
What I guess I'm trying to say is that there is room for distinction here, and a great amount of independancy and a lot of fun. Consider a scenario, if you will. This is a Base assault, down the road.
A single Ranger slinks along, past the perimeter defenses of aremote wilderness base.150 yards to the south, his group lies still, having been camoflaged by the Ranger. Working quickly, he slips through the gateand plants a series of anti-personal mines at the doorway of the base. Sneaking up behind a guard, he pilfers the code to the door. He slinks back, rejoining his small squad. The squad leader leans over and in a harsh whisper, motivates his team to follow him into battle. The Ranger slips to the side, ready to move inside the base. With a single signal over the comm channel, the Squad Leader unleashes hell on this unsuspecting base.
On that signal, two Commandos stand up andfire rockets. Two smoke trails arc into the distance before these rockets collide with the turrets that are this bases' only primary line of defense. Instantly, the guard surrounding this base are put into a panic, as they charge the commandos. Calling targets expertly, the Squad Leader and his troops make quick work of the perimeter guards. The commandos, moving forward slowly, are throwing grenades to disperse of the troops. The last one, flat on his back and panicing, thanks to the Bounty Hunter and Smugglers' respective skill, calls for backup. Troops rush out of the base-- and into the minefield the Ranger has placed. Those that survive the blast are quickly engulfed in the blast of heavy weapons fire from the commandos.
The perimeter secure, the Ranger slips in silently stalking the halls. He comes upon the commander of the base. He deftly searches the commander for the information vital to his cause. He finds it. Knowing this is a powerful figure, he takes a bio-signature of the commander, and creates a proximity mine just for him, and places it ourside the office. He slips out, and gives the signal to his squad. The commando's enter, flamethrowers drawn, and proceed to burn the remaining troops out of their hole. Working together, the squad sets the base to self destruct. They leave the commander alive, and inform him of the mine waiting outside his door.
Meanwhile, outside, not all has gone according to plan. The Ranger, looking quickly over the horrizon, spots the dust-cloud of incoming enemy armor. He does what he can, placing mines along the outside of the base, but he knows that these will merely slow the vehicles down. He calls to his squad, and the squad leader quickly sets up a perimeter. The Ranger, utilizing the environment camoflages his mates again, and they wait. 400 meters. 200 meters. 100 meters. 50 meters. and then suddenly, the first vehicle is engulfed in flames as a rocket slames into it's hull. The second turns to lay down fire, but it, too, is consumed. The remaining troops hop off their ship, only to find themselves pinned down by suppressive fire. Those that attempt to charge are slowed to a crawl by a Ranger caltrop assembly. These few troops are dealt with summarily, and the small 8 man group retreats back into the woods from whence they came.
the above story is meant to show that explosives in the Ranger tree do not make Commando useless. There are a lot of issues with commando, I know. And the changes to Ranger are a step closer to what you guys want. But in the end, it appears there will bea good seperation of skills. Rangers will have explosives, yes. But their skills are limited to placing explosives prior to combat. It requires them to be tactical and once combat begins, they won't have the opportunity to use explosives. Commandos on the other hand, should be equipped with explosive meant for intense, in-combat action.
The difference is large, in my mind. Rangers are light assault troops. Lightly armed and surviving on preperation rather than strength. Rangers are lightly equipped, fast troops. Commandos are the opposite. They are tough, battle-hardened troops who let their weapons do their talking. Stealth is not their job. (whoever heard of a stealthy flamethrower?). This is not to say that your opinions are incorrect, or that I know more about what it means to be a Commando than you. But I do see a very strong differentiation of skill, and an interesting way to bring both style of assault troops into the game.
There are commandos in real life and in fiction who use stealth and guile. There are commandos in real life who come into battle with the big machine guns and the TOW missles. Unfortunately, you cannot have a class be both in this game, I think. Because if you have stealth and high power in the same profession, then you can add other high-power professions and you end up with a god class. Seperating the two allows peopleto choose. I know that's not an acceptable answer for some, but it's the best I can offer you.
I'd say the Ranger role now is Light Assault +Recon, while commando is Heavy Assault and Demolitions. The idea of being an assault troop does imply some offensive capbility, which I think is reflected by the mines that Rangers will be able to lay. Now, commandos need a lot of work to fufill their role, I know. The speed restrictions are really horrible, as is the power which you are given. I think that in the future, this could be corrected by giving the game more targets that were succeptible to explosives. Assault Vehicles, Turrets, entrnchments, et. al. should be things that mow down most troops. Perhaps commandos could be given anti-vehicular mines that only they could place, that Rangers could camoflage?
In the end, there are a lot of Ranger units in Star Wars lore that involve demolitions (example-- Antarian Ranger prestige class from SW pen and paper RPG). That doesn't mean that there isn't room for commando. I'd love for them to make the game grow to the point where Rangers and Commandos could be different enough that there isn't this animosity when one gets something the other would like. By defining Rangers as light assault troops, the game almost begs for the creature of a very good heavy asaault troops who have unique skills.
In the end, Ranger and Commando are both terms laden with images from real life, Star Wars lore and other games. But I think that working together (yes, I'd love to help you guys any way I can) we can create a role for both of them in the game. Thank you for your time.
Olsson
Mon Sep 19, 2005 3:40 pm
#2
I only found two thing I strongly disagree with in your post:
1. "But here's where we need to seperate commando's from explosives in general."
Separating Commandos from explosives when we have the explosives tree isn't your place. Go to the Bounty Hunter forums and tell them you want to separate them from Investigation or tell Jedi you feel they need to be saparated from Light Saber usageand see how that goes over. Light sabers belong to jedi, Bounty Investigation belongs to Bounty Hunters and Explosives belong to Commandos.
2. "the above story is meant to show that explosives in the Ranger tree do not make Commando useless." That's like saying giving the ability to others to use Heavy Weapons doesn't make Commandos useless. We are defined by our weapons and even get severely hampered by not getting any specials because of that. To give any weapon, including anything that would fall under our explosives tree, is taking utility away from Commando. And we have very little utility as it is. That's as basic as it gets.
I also think SOE's ability to implement a light and heavy class of the same profession is simply non-existant, but your theory on heavy and ligt is dead on. Other than that, good post. Let Commandos place heavy explosive mines that can be seen unless a ranger camouflages them, etc.
Phenix1050
Mon Sep 19, 2005 3:58 pm
#3
Olsson wrote:
I only found two thing I strongly disagree with in your post:
1. "But here's where we need to seperate commando's from explosives in general."
Separating Commandos from explosives when we have the explosives tree isn't your place. Go to the Bounty Hunter forums and tell them you want to separate them from Investigation or tell Jedi you feel they need to be saparated from Light Saber usageand see how that goes over. Light sabers belong to jedi, Bounty Investigation belongs to Bounty Hunters and Explosives belong to Commandos.
My reasoning is that "explosives" is a class of weapon. Lightsabers are a type of the overall class of "melee weapon", for example. But Jedi are not all about every melee weapon. Investigation is a form of information gathering, but I wouldn't call Bounty Hunters the only class that has a right to gather intel. That's my point. I think explosives is a very broad class, and there's room for other classes to have it, just like there is more than one class with melee weapons.
2. "the above story is meant to show that explosives in the Ranger tree do not make Commando useless." That's like saying giving the ability to others to use Heavy Weapons doesn't make Commandos useless. We are defined by our weapons and even get severely hampered by not getting any specials because of that. To give any weapon, including anything that would fall under our explosives tree, is taking utility away from Commando. And we have very little utility as it is. That's as basic as it gets.
My comments were based on future changes. Rangers having one type of explosives doesn't bar you from having a different role in the game. But that vision needs to be written down, expanded upon, and Commandos need to be given skills to represent their unique role. Then, the fact that Ranger have one explosive mine won't be so bad.
I also think SOE's ability to implement a light and heavy class of the same profession is simply non-existant, but your theory on heavy and ligt is dead on. Other than that, good post. Let Commandos place heavy explosive mines that can be seen unless a ranger camouflages them, etc.
I think SOEs recent moves give them back a LOT of credibility. Not just the Ranger changes. Since the CU, we've seen CHs, SLs and Rangers get big changes. That, to me, indicates a paradigm shift in terms of where their focus is. Commandos should have mines, sure. But having the two classes be interdependant would be really cool (how awesome would it be for a Ranger and a commando to lay down an anti-personal field and an anti-vehicle field respectively, and for the Ranger to camoflage the whole area? There are a lot of possibilities out there. That's my main point-- not to let this change to Ranger completely ruin your perception of the game-- there is still a lot of room for a Heavy Assault Commando in this game, it'll just take some ingenuity (which SOE is really starting to show a lot of).
Raptor2k1
Mon Sep 19, 2005 4:24 pm
#4
I think both fill fit into their roles eventually... and given that Ranger will likely have it's non-elite requirements reduced to what other combat professions have, this means we can have commando rangers too - don't forget. 
(Oh come on, you all want to be an Old School C&C commando don't you? 
)
As I see things shaping out, it'll probably end up like this:
Ranger's Niche: Stealth, subgerfuge and sneaky attacks. What we originally termed the "sneaky commando" when we were asked what image of commando we preferred. I personally voted for this one, but most went for the Arnold style commando.
Commando Niche: Think space marines from Aliens. We'll end up using active straight-forward weaponry that lacks subtlety. We will be feared on the battlefield... eventually... maybe....
Now if you end up going for both, then you'll be a sneaky guy who pulls out the big guns when things hit the fan. Think of a sort of True Lies Arnold type of character with espionage and big guns. I really hope we're able to do that, because that's really what I wanted to do with my SWG combat template from the beginning, it just wasn't realizeable before.
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