Commando Archive
Thread: Very very strange
It's insane how much we get shafted.
OH WAIT! OUR AOE IS BROKEN!!!
RoastyToasty wrote:
That's because we have AOE so when fighting a group of opponents Commandos can do the same or more damage to the whole group than the pistoleer who can only damage one target at a time.
OH WAIT! OUR AOE IS BROKEN!!!
ROFL
truth be told, a pistoleer can do more damage to a group than a commando...
heck, i think every range class can do more damage to a group than a commando.
Let me explain. We do 1000 dmg to a target, and the ae part of our dmg to surrounding targets will only be 400 not including elemental. With elemental it would be, on a 60 ele dmg wpn 1060/460. A pistoleer however does 800dmg to the target with fan shot so everything in the cone takes 800 dmg. Hmmmmm sounds a bit wrong for a class that is supposed to be an AE class to get outdamaged this way by DESIGN.
Also when tested with heavy wpns and AoE special from pistoleer, I consistantly do not land AoE effects at all. If you use an AE special with our wpns there is no cone, but we still get a cone of aggro. Nice to be broken.
Unika wrote:
Especially since right now we have a 100/40 dmg with AOE while other professions do 100/100 AoE.
Let me explain. We do 1000 dmg to a target, and the ae part of our dmg to surrounding targets will only be 400 not including elemental. With elemental it would be, on a 60 ele dmg wpn 1060/460. A pistoleer however does 800dmg to the target with fan shot so everything in the cone takes 800 dmg. Hmmmmm sounds a bit wrong for a class that is supposed to be an AE class to get outdamaged this way by DESIGN.
Also when tested with heavy wpns and AoE special from pistoleer, I consistantly do not land AoE effects at all. If you use an AE special with our wpns there is no cone, but we still get a cone of aggro. Nice to be broken.
First, our AOE is currently broken to elemental+1 and doesn't even come close to 100/40.
Now, the thing to consider here is damage multipliers. The AOE specials from other professions have a damage multiplier built in that is inferior to a normal damage special such as Leg Shot. What is supposed to make a Commando better is the fact that we can combine a high damage special with our AOE achieving a higher damage multiplier over an area than AOE's from other professions. In addition to that, our weapons also have innate states. So in theory a Commando should be able to deal a good amount of damage to a single target, splash a decent amount to secondary targets, and apply a state or dot to every target in the AOE.
Nice thoery, but poor implimentation. Our AOE is not working (see above), our states and dots stick pretty randomly (not necessarily bad as I've always had at least a few mobs in the cone get it), and our weapons are slow and have a high SAC. I personally would like to see our AOE work (even at 100/40) to see if that's enough. I would be willing to accept high SAC, slow weapons, and shoddy states if we could just combine a high damage special with a high damage AOE weapon and cause HIGH DAMAGE!
The issue of 100/40 appears to be the SOE design intent for most Commando weapons (LBC seems to be 100/100 I understand).
If the commando AOE with Legshot were to be effective, the splash damage we deal would need to be larger than the AOE damage caused by other professions AOE specials (aka pistoleer fanshot). Commando firing Legshot > Pistoleer firing Fanshot over the same period of time. Whether 100/40 is enough to do that remains to be seen. Maybe someone can run the math.
But a commando that has pistoleer fanshot should be able to do pistoleer fanshot 100/100 with a commando weapon just like he could with a pistol, don't you agree? It seems like that is not the plan, that our 100/40 will override the fanshot. That means, we will do less damage for a special we EARNED by dabbling. That seems unfair to me.
Now if part of fixing the AOE is the unexpected nerf of all the OTHER professions AOE attacks to do 100/40 levels of damage, then maybe we are on an even footing. But that's not how anyone in this community would want the AOE fix to work. But given past performance, I wouldn't discount SOE's ability to nerf where no nerf is needed.
Given our high SAC and lower speed, that alone would balance our ability to outspam damage than other professions AOE specials. So, in my book, the solution is 100/100 AOE damage on commando weapons.
We will deal some pretty heavy hits on a large number of targets, then we'll be out of action pool and left to marksman specials for a while. Our friends the pistoleers, spray shotters, and all other AOE special wielding professions will be able to keep firing off their AOE specials, since they will still have action, since they don't have insane SAC.
Once AOE works, then adjust weapon damage ranges (seems complicated) or speed (add a little general/HW speed in a tree, seems easy) so that we come out X% (you pick the number) higher than the other professions AOE damage over the same period of time and then we will be the AOE damage dealing profession. The key is measuring the damage output over the same period of time, not per shot.
Test it. Get an MBH/MCommando/Carb and a MBH/MPistoleer/Carb out on the firing range. Both start blasting target. Commando fires Improved Legshot with PFT (our best weapon, but can't PUP). Pistoleer fires Improved Fanshot with his best weapon (with PUP). When Commando is out of action pool, start firing marksman specials. Both keep firing until Commando action pool is full again. Both stop firing. Add up damage to main target and splash targets for both the commando and the pistoleer. The result should have the the Commando X% more total damage dealt to the splash target than the pistoleer. Keep running the test and adjusting the results until you achieve the design objective, where commando does somewhat more damage than a pistoleer (X%). Rinse and repeat for other weapons, professions, PUP combinations, skill tape mixes, etc. Now SOE has a real way to test it's design before asking us to check it out on Test Center.
It's fair, it's balanced. Is is likely?
But...those other professions not only have the AoE, and the means to do the 100%/100% damage...but they also have the utility without switching weapons, as well as the damage shots that we - damage dealers - cannot even live up to. Then toss in high sac, lowest speeds, and highest movement penalties with a HW equiped.
Now, if you put us in a ranged template...the potential for damage springs free, and then we can be fairly destructive (when AoE is fixed) so the high sac, lowest speeds, and highest movement penalties does make sense. But right now, they don't as we don't even come close to that damage potential.
It's interesting, once you understand how our AoE compares, why in the world the Developers thought they could get a damage dealer out of an exclusively AoE-based profession.
The comparison of damage output by commando weapons by looking at total damage dealt over a period of time compared vs other professions AOE is the only way I can imagine that SOE could get the damage balance "right" for us.
Send it on up the correspondent foodchain so you can listen to even MORE cricket noises from the Dev's non-response.
one you you all have to remember that the other guys AOE skills are just that, skills. our AOE are built into the weapion and can turn any range skill, damage and stats, to a AOE. soo i can do a body hit AOE with a LBC at 100/100 and also i can do a area root with the same weapion the next turn. but the devs said that they are also going to make the low and midlevel commando weapions more powerful when master. plobely to par with the other master weapions. so if we see a more powerful non plasma FT which do 80% damage and get more powerful at master.
this is just me thinking.