Commando Archive
Thread: Post CU Flamers... Speeds? Or Damage?
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UnicronVII
Mon Apr 04, 2005 4:36 am
#1
Im a bit worried, and not going to slice this new weapon yet, but a friend made me a 3.2 speed, 500-920 damage flamer the other day, best one I have yet, and just curious what everyone thinks about after the CU.
Who thinks speed will be most imporant still? As most current combat prof prefer damage weapons it seems, but ive held a 2.4 in my hands and seen the power... /drool
on tc the blue frog flamers look really fast, in the 2's for speed already.. What do you all think will happen?
Who thinks speed will be most imporant still? As most current combat prof prefer damage weapons it seems, but ive held a 2.4 in my hands and seen the power... /drool
on tc the blue frog flamers look really fast, in the 2's for speed already.. What do you all think will happen?
Ordo-Malleus
Mon Apr 04, 2005 5:16 am
#2
UnicronVII wrote:
Im a bit worried, and not going to slice this new weapon yet, but a friend made me a 3.2 speed, 500-920 damage flamer the other day, best one I have yet, and just curious what everyone thinks about after the CU.
Who thinks speed will be most imporant still? As most current combat prof prefer damage weapons it seems, but ive held a 2.4 in my hands and seen the power... /drool
on tc the blue frog flamers look really fast, in the 2's for speed already.. What do you all think will happen?
post CU im sure you will see many reports on the flamers slices, i will be posting what mine are, currently they are one speed one damage, so im waiting to see that myself, however, looking more into smuggler it looks as if you can control how it comes out.
ill break it down a little better, a master smuggler gets 100 points to divide up into the catigories so say i want a slice and i want 35% damage and 65% speed, that can be arranged... 
Jeren_Sehn
Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:14 pm
#3
You should wait until after the CU to have it sliced. As for whether speed slices will be better or worse than damage slices, it depends on how weapon speed is used, as they've completely reworked the formula.
Under the existing (pre-CU) system, an x% speed slice *always* gave you a better dps than an x% damage slice until you ran into the speed cap. Flamethrowers has such a poor base speed and we had such a measly (+45) weapon speed skill enhancement that virtually no one was in danger of hitting the cap (except possibly the guy with the "exceptional" flamer, the stats on which I forget).
Under the existing system also, anyone with +100 weapon speed was always at the speed cap, no matter how slow the weapon being used was or how bad the delay caused by specials being used, but that speed formula will be gone post CU.
My gut feeling is that speed slices will still be better than damage slices, because dps is always damage/speed, and, assuming (say) a 30% slice:
(130% damage/speed) = 1.3 (damage/speed) = 1.3(old DPS)
but
(damage/ (100%-30%) speed) = (damage/70% speed) = 1.42857 (damage/speed) = 1.42857(old DPS)
In fact, under the assumptions that govern the above any speed slice greater than 23.08% will be better on your DPS than a 30% damage slice.
That said, there are a number of assumptions in this. Most notably:
(1) that slicing will still give you approximately equal speed or damage slices, in percentage terms. Perhaps, for example, throwing all 100 points into speed slicing will only yield a 15% damage slice, whereas throwing all 100 points into damage will yield a 30% damage slice. (Edit, then again, perhaps there will be a diminishing retuirn to applying slicing points, so that you'd get a higher dps by splitting points between damage and speed, which makes a lot of sense...though one would imagine that such a system might still favor a heavier investment in speed over damage, because in that system DPS would me maximized where marginal DPS added by the last slicing point thrown into damage equals the marginal DPS of the last slicing point thrown into speed and those marginal values likely would still be subject to the inherent speed bonus noted above.)
(2) that the speed of a weapon is a linear function showing how many seconds it takes to fire the weapon. Perhaps change in weapon speed from 4.0 to 2.0 will *not* mean the weapon fires twice as fast. The "estimated DPS" listed on the weapon on TC5 does suggest that "speed" is a simple "number of seconds it takes to fire", though. It is clear from the devs that skill modifiers you pick up from the skill trees or SEA's will no longer apply in such a linear way though. Each additional point of weapon speed you get there will have a diminishing return. Perhaps that will affect base weapon speed as well in a way that the estimated DPS numbers do not reveal.
It will take a lot more testing to figure it out for sure.
Under the existing (pre-CU) system, an x% speed slice *always* gave you a better dps than an x% damage slice until you ran into the speed cap. Flamethrowers has such a poor base speed and we had such a measly (+45) weapon speed skill enhancement that virtually no one was in danger of hitting the cap (except possibly the guy with the "exceptional" flamer, the stats on which I forget).
Under the existing system also, anyone with +100 weapon speed was always at the speed cap, no matter how slow the weapon being used was or how bad the delay caused by specials being used, but that speed formula will be gone post CU.
My gut feeling is that speed slices will still be better than damage slices, because dps is always damage/speed, and, assuming (say) a 30% slice:
(130% damage/speed) = 1.3 (damage/speed) = 1.3(old DPS)
but
(damage/ (100%-30%) speed) = (damage/70% speed) = 1.42857 (damage/speed) = 1.42857(old DPS)
In fact, under the assumptions that govern the above any speed slice greater than 23.08% will be better on your DPS than a 30% damage slice.
That said, there are a number of assumptions in this. Most notably:
(1) that slicing will still give you approximately equal speed or damage slices, in percentage terms. Perhaps, for example, throwing all 100 points into speed slicing will only yield a 15% damage slice, whereas throwing all 100 points into damage will yield a 30% damage slice. (Edit, then again, perhaps there will be a diminishing retuirn to applying slicing points, so that you'd get a higher dps by splitting points between damage and speed, which makes a lot of sense...though one would imagine that such a system might still favor a heavier investment in speed over damage, because in that system DPS would me maximized where marginal DPS added by the last slicing point thrown into damage equals the marginal DPS of the last slicing point thrown into speed and those marginal values likely would still be subject to the inherent speed bonus noted above.)
(2) that the speed of a weapon is a linear function showing how many seconds it takes to fire the weapon. Perhaps change in weapon speed from 4.0 to 2.0 will *not* mean the weapon fires twice as fast. The "estimated DPS" listed on the weapon on TC5 does suggest that "speed" is a simple "number of seconds it takes to fire", though. It is clear from the devs that skill modifiers you pick up from the skill trees or SEA's will no longer apply in such a linear way though. Each additional point of weapon speed you get there will have a diminishing return. Perhaps that will affect base weapon speed as well in a way that the estimated DPS numbers do not reveal.
It will take a lot more testing to figure it out for sure.
Message Edited by Jeren_Sehn on 04-04-2005 04:22 PM
Enix_Dayspring
Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:17 pm
#4
Considering the variety of weapons we have available to us now (not only commando weapons but the new General Ranged Accuracy & Speed modifiers that let us combine with other professions and be handy with nearly any weapon we have a certification for) combined with the fact the weapon switch delay is now gone.
I'm thinking that we will have tons of options open to us. Going up against a big group? Toss an Imp Grenade to knock them all down, apply your DoT with your flamer, then retreat and pull out your strongest single target weapon and start picking them off one at a time while the DoT continues to work.
Does anyone know if our Proton Grenade DoT and flamethrower DoT will stack? *evil grin*
TatooinainWarrior
Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:23 pm
#5
LOL wish i knew... can't test yet... but i'll everyone know if it does hehe
Enix_Dayspring wrote:
Considering the variety of weapons we have available to us now (not only commando weapons but the new General Ranged Accuracy & Speed modifiers that let us combine with other professions and be handy with nearly any weapon we have a certification for) combined with the fact the weapon switch delay is now gone.
I'm thinking that we will have tons of options open to us. Going up against a big group? Toss an Imp Grenade to knock them all down, apply your DoT with your flamer, then retreat and pull out your strongest single target weapon and start picking them off one at a time while the DoT continues to work.
Does anyone know if our Proton Grenade DoT and flamethrower DoT will stack? *evil grin*
RankorCity
Mon Apr 04, 2005 3:51 pm
#6
I'll be making a Master Smuggler on CU to help us test the differences...So the day the blue frogs come out, let the burning begin
Enix_Dayspring
Mon Apr 04, 2005 5:13 pm
#7
The thing I think will be really interesting is that flamethrower may no longer be THE weapon of choice for commandos now. It will have its uses for sure, but we have to get used to the fact that now we have a WHOLE goodie bag of awesome weapons.
No longer is it Shoot rocket launcher, flame, flame, flame, flame.
Now we'll have a hard time figuring out what to use first, especially since grenades don't hurt US anymore.
Now it might be something like: Rocket Launcher, Flame, Equip Massassi knucklers and melee while tossing grenades.
Depending on whether you opt to make your commando mostly range oriented or more melee oriented (which you can do now, did everyone notice we get general melee acc and speed mods now?) it will take commandos from being a 1 trick pony to being upwards of 4 or 5 different categories of commandos.
Man, I can't wait!
DragonSnack
Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:01 am
#8
Ordo-Malleus wrote:
UnicronVII wrote:
Im a bit worried, and not going to slice this new weapon yet, but a friend made me a 3.2 speed, 500-920 damage flamer the other day, best one I have yet, and just curious what everyone thinks about after the CU.
Who thinks speed will be most imporant still? As most current combat prof prefer damage weapons it seems, but ive held a 2.4 in my hands and seen the power... /drool
on tc the blue frog flamers look really fast, in the 2's for speed already.. What do you all think will happen?
post CU im sure you will see many reports on the flamers slices, i will be posting what mine are, currently they are one speed one damage, so im waiting to see that myself, however, looking more into smuggler it looks as if you can control how it comes out.
ill break it down a little better, a master smuggler gets 100 points to divide up into the catigories so say i want a slice and i want 35% damage and 65% speed, that can be arranged...
As a Master smuggler I am very curious as to the slicing game.
As I see it I hve 100[ppoints to divide between dmg and speed.
Howevr if I read the proposed slicing game...
both speed and damage hae 3 components; for a total of 6 components to be sliced to get the results wanted.
I can put all the points in speed or allin damage or split the points between both sped and damage.
To get the highest possible I (supposedly) put all the points indamage slices- divided between the three components.
The same goes if I want just a speed slice.
The key items to take into consideration are:
If you are already speed capped then why would you need a speed slice?
What is the"happy medium" to get for any particular weapon?
In the old systemthere was a minimum auto fire rate of 1 sec and a special firing rate of a minimun of 5 seconds Suipposedly you couldn't fire any weapon in under 1 second intervals regadless of speed skills, AAs, CAs, or powerups.
What are the cool down timers for the weapons?
If the cool down timer on my flamer specials is 10 seconds and I'm speed capped at 10 seconds; I wouldn't want to spend money on a speed slice. I'd rather go for damage.
Given the time frame to test it would probably be a good idea to get the times on our attacks now, even of they might change when the cu goes live.
Regardless of the test timings the WSs, the ASs and the smuggler need time to figure out how to massage the weapons and armotrs under the new system.
Even if the times and specs change the crafting and slicing system probably won't.
I'd like to be able to do compentent slicing and craftingfrom day1 of the CU going live.
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