Commando Archive

Thread: Pro and Con of Commando / Bounty Hunter template post CU

Enix_Dayspring
Tue Apr 05, 2005 6:01 pm
#1


Someone was talking about this on the Bounty Hunter forum and I thought it would be good to discuss the template here, pros and cons, since it is one of the popular things that alot of commandos have been talking about trying out.



Cons:


1) No status effect cures, Neither BH or Commando have blind, stun or dizzy cures.


2)Commando has no abilities in its trees. Commando is all about the weapons which, despite their power, are slow. This can be a major disadvantage in 1 vs 1 fights that BHs are primarily designed for.


3) BHs are designed as 1 vs 1 specialists, but alot of the commando weapons are powerful because of their group attack abilities. All grenades and at least the flamethrower (havent found out about the other heavy weapons) are now all area attack weapons which, if youre doing 1 vs 1, lose alot of their effectivness.


4) BHs and Commandos both use Assault Armor, so you wouldnt have the option of more variety in your protection that you might if you did BH with assault armor plus say carbineer to get battle armor or pistoleer for reconaissance armor.


5) BHs have little in the way of crowd control, and commando has very little to offer to strengthen that weakness.


6) Not as much variety of weaponry as you would have if you went with pistoleer, carbineer or rifleman. Commando is all about heavy weapons, Bounty Hunters are kind of a handyman profession with a handful of certs from different weapon types. If you went BH / carbineer or either of the other 2, you would have alot more options in weaponry to use your BH specials with.



Now of course there could be upsides to it too.


1) Gives BH / Commando would seem to be an EXTREMELY powerful nuke in groups where they don't have to worry about getting ganged up on by a bunch of mobs.


2) Commando weapons have some status effects built into them. Grenades and flamethrowers get DoTs, Heavy Acid Rifle has blind, etc., all without the necessity of hitting a special.




Anyone have other things to add to the list or things listed above they disagree with?



**************************************************************************
Pyrrhus
Sunrunner

zero8404
Tue Apr 05, 2005 6:12 pm
#2

lol BH's cried so much they got saber block. see "duelist stance" inves 1.


j/k kidding bout the crying, but seriously, what are the BH devs smoken.


other than that, they get some good specials, but they get assault armor, like us.
Spetc
Wed Apr 06, 2005 7:30 am
#3

So now the other ranged specials will work with Heavy Weapons? I been kinda unclear on that.


Im looking to do Master Smuggler/Master Commando with some scout for TN and hunting.


Can I use Smuggler specials with Heavy Weapons?




Thatguyfubu
Wed Apr 06, 2005 7:44 am
#4

well you do have some extra skill points left. You can pick up a the defensive branch in pistoleer, plus you get the quickdraw special at pistol 4 with will increase the refire rate on your weapons. Additionally there is some status cures there as well.




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garvin
Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:53 am
#5

Here is the breakdown of BH with Commando...take from here.








Skill Points: 213 of 250 used. (85.2%)



Experience needed

Bounty Hunter 34,000 (0.36%)

Carbine Weapons 1,225,000 (13.06%)

Combat 875,550 (9.33%)

Heavy Weapons 4,675,000 (49.83%)

Pistol Weapons 1,225,000 (13.06%)

Rifle Weapons 1,225,000 (13.06%)

Scouting 31,000 (0.33%)

Unarmed Combat 91,000 (0.97%)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Total Experience 9,381,550



Skill mod Summary:



Bounty Mission Difficulty +3

Burst Run Efficiency +40

Camping +5

Creature Harvesting +15

Creature Knowledge +5

Droid Precision +130

Droid Speed +90

Droid Tracking Speed +80

General Melee Accuracy +55

General Melee Speed +20

General Ranged Accuracy +150

General Ranged Speed +60

Heavy Weapon Accuracy +55

Heavy Weapon Defense +50

Heavy Weapon Speed +45

Mask Scent +70

Melee Defense +180

Ranged Defense +165

Terrain Negotiation +40

Thrown Weapon Accuracy +95

Thrown Weapon Speed +50

Tracking Droid Effectiveness +100

Tracking Droids +12

Trapping +5

Unarmed Accuracy +65

Unarmed Damage +70

Unarmed Defense +40

Unarmed Speed +30



Certification Summary:



Assault Armor Certification

Cryoban Grenade Certification

Czerka Dart Carbine Certification

Dagger Certification

Flame Thrower Certification

Fragmentation Grenade

Certification Glop Grenade Certification

Heavy Acid Beam Certification

Heavy Acid Rifle Certification

Heavy Particle Beam Cannon Certification

Imperial Detonator Certification

Launcher Pistol Certification

Light Lightning Cannon Certification

Lightning Beam Cannon Certification

Massassi Knuckler Certification

Proton Grenade Certification

Rocket Launcher Certification

Scatter Pistol Certification

Thermal Detonator Certification



Ability Summary:



Advanced Critical Shot

Accuracy Mitigation 20%

Assault Armor Movement Mitigation 60%

Assault Armor Rate of Fire Mitigation 20%

Center Of Being

Confusion Shot

Critical Shot

Dive Shot

Droid Find

Droid Track

Duelist Stance

Eye Shot

Harvest Corpse

Improved Confussion Shot

Improved Critical Shot

Improved Duelist Stance

Improved Eye Shot

Improved Spray Shot

Improved Underhand Shot

Kip Up Shot

Knockdown Recovery

Leg Sweep

Lunge

Mask Scent

Melee Strike

Overcharge

Shot Roll Shot

Spray Shot

Taunt

Torso Shot

Underhand Shot







Now the key thing about this template is that it leaves you with 37 points left over...those 37 points COULD be spent in Medic to gain some healing abilities (no idea yet which medic tree is the best, but it's enough for at least 1 tree of medic.


This is going to be a pretty tough template design, but it will also depend on where the "caps" might end up...But when it comes to toughness, this one is about as strong as it gets.


As for weaknesses, I'd have to likely think it's going to be "crowd control" as your opponent could "root" you via a mez and take advantage of range weaknesses or force you to use our KD recovery over and over (which comes at a high cost). Assult Armor does also add movement and accuracy hinderances that could be take advantage of (especially if your target keeps out of LOS (line of sight).


Just my thoughts...may add more later.

Message Edited by garvin on 04-06-2005 08:59 AM



Garvin Lansdowne
Retired Commando Correspondent - Current Blue Glowie

Master Commando / TKM || Architect / Shipwright / Master Droidsmith

ShadowStyrkeGuild.com: A WoW Guild Website

Latenighter
Wed Apr 06, 2005 10:06 am
#6

What suprises me with the elite hybrid professions (BH, Commando, etc) is that they no longer provide any weapon specific speed/accuracy modifiers. A BH has a carbine, but receives no carbine speed or accuracy mods, pistol without pistol speed or accuracy mods and heavy weapon (LLC) without HW speed/accuracy mods. As a result, to use a particular weapon more effectively, you need to get carbineer, pistoleer or commando to get mods for those weapons.

Since this is going to be the way it works post-CU, it looks like the benefit received comes from the General Ranged accuracy/speed mods. But does anyone understand how these are INTENDED to work? Currently, the general type mods only seem to work with autoattack type moves or /aim. Will these General mods now work with specials? If we have an idea of how it SHOULD work, we will be able to test it more effectively once the elite professions are unlocked.



RIEN - Master Commando
"We are the guys skilled with all ranged weapons. They should let us act like it"
garvin
Wed Apr 06, 2005 10:57 am
#7








Latenighter wrote:
What suprises me with the elite hybrid professions (BH, Commando, etc) is that they no longer provide any weapon specific speed/accuracy modifiers. A BH has a carbine, but receives no carbine speed or accuracy mods, pistol without pistol speed or accuracy mods and heavy weapon (LLC) without HW speed/accuracy mods. As a result, to use a particular weapon more effectively, you need to get carbineer, pistoleer or commando to get mods for those weapons.

Since this is going to be the way it works post-CU, it looks like the benefit received comes from the General Ranged accuracy/speed mods. But does anyone understand how these are INTENDED to work? Currently, the general type mods only seem to work with autoattack type moves or /aim. Will these General mods now work with specials? If we have an idea of how it SHOULD work, we will be able to test it more effectively once the elite professions are unlocked.






We know basic info on how General Speed and Accuracy is suppose to work compared to Specific Speed and Accuracy.


General Ranged Speed and Accuracy will stack across all ranged professions and will effect ALL Ranged weapons (and their specials)...On top of the General mods, Specifc Mods (like Heavy Weapon Speed and Acccuracy) will stack, but will only work when that specific weapon type is equiped...Specific Weapon Mods will have, supposedly, a greater effect on speed and accuracy then general mods. The idea is, for example, a Commando who dabbles skill points in another ranged profession will not only gain more specials, but also gain more speed and accuracy via the general mods, where as a Commando who chooses to dabble a Melee or Non-Combat profession would have less ranged speed and accuracy then an all ranged template.


The Specific mods are a way of "further tweaking" professions so they are the BEST with their weapon type. Since a Master Commando will have more specific Heavy Weapon Speed and Accuracy then a Commando dabbler, we'll be the best with OUR weapons...But if a Commando dabbles Rifleman for example to just gain the specials, their specials MAY work better with THEIR weapons when it comes to speed and accuracy, because they have more "specific" rifle speed and accuracy mods.


Does that make any sense? We'll actually have to SEE it before we truely know how well it works or how much these "specific" mods effect us, but I can tell that part of the plan is to make us WANT as much "specific" mods for our preferred weapon type as we can get, which could mean, we sacrifice in other other (to keep us all having strengths and weaknesses).





Garvin Lansdowne
Retired Commando Correspondent - Current Blue Glowie

Master Commando / TKM || Architect / Shipwright / Master Droidsmith

ShadowStyrkeGuild.com: A WoW Guild Website

WolfGuy
Wed Apr 06, 2005 11:05 am
#8

My personal Commando/BH template will have 0040 Pistoleer for State Recover abilities and for Intmidate Shot. This also certs you for Recon armour but only gives you accuracy mitagation.




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skotadi
Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:02 pm
#9

do the armor mods stack
garvin
Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:43 pm
#10






skotadi wrote:

do the armor mods stack





If you are asking about armor mitigation, it's my understanding that they do NOT stack...in otherwords...if profession "A" gives you 20% mitigation, and profession "B" gives you 60% mitigation, then the most that you have is 60% mitigation..It automatically defaults to the highest level you have reached.


It is also not Weapon dependent on whether you get a certain level of mitigation (like if you get the 60% from Commando, but only 20% from BH, you wouldn't lose the 60% just because you weren't using a Heavy Weapon). Mitigation type is, though, dependent on the TYPE of armor is is meant for (we have mainly Assult armor mitigation, so this wouldn't help with Recon Armor)...


I could be wrong on all of this...we will see when testing starts (of if Helios pops back in to respond), but I'm pretty confident this is the way it works...


An additional note...TK avoidance turns off the moment you equip ANY armor, but isn't effected by weapon type. That was verified in another thread. Just thought I'd mention that since we were discussing a bit of "armor effects". This is what I've been basically hinting at about being a "Commando who goes Commando"...if you decide to pair up with TK for avoidance, they you'll likely want to go armorless (personally, I'll just carry around a suit of armor, and equip or unequip when the time is right).





Garvin Lansdowne
Retired Commando Correspondent - Current Blue Glowie

Master Commando / TKM || Architect / Shipwright / Master Droidsmith

ShadowStyrkeGuild.com: A WoW Guild Website

Latenighter
Thu Apr 07, 2005 12:04 am
#11


garvin wrote:


We know basic info on how General Speed and Accuracy is suppose to work compared to Specific Speed and Accuracy.

General Ranged Speed and Accuracy will stack across all ranged professions and will effect ALL Ranged weapons (and their specials)...On top of the General mods, Specifc Mods (like Heavy Weapon Speed and Acccuracy) will stack, but will only work when that specific weapon type is equiped...Specific Weapon Mods will have, supposedly, a greater effect on speed and accuracy then general mods. The idea is, for example, a Commando who dabbles skill points in another ranged profession will not only gain more specials, but also gain more speed and accuracy via the general mods, where as a Commando who chooses to dabble a Melee or Non-Combat profession would have less ranged speed and accuracy then an all ranged template.

The Specific mods are a way of "further tweaking" professions so they are the BEST with their weapon type. Since a Master Commando will have more specific Heavy Weapon Speed and Accuracy then a Commando dabbler, we'll be the best with OUR weapons...But if a Commando dabbles Rifleman for example to just gain the specials, their specials MAY work better with THEIR weapons when it comes to speed and accuracy, because they have more "specific" rifle speed and accuracy mods.

Does that make any sense? We'll actually have to SEE it before we truely know how well it works or how much these "specific" mods effect us, but I can tell that part of the plan is to make us WANT as much "specific" mods for our preferred weapon type as we can get, which could mean, we sacrifice in other other (to keep us all having strengths and weaknesses).




I think you are making sense, particularly on waiting to see how it really works! But I have the following speculation:

So basically, the general speed mod and the weapons specific speed mod will add together. But it may not be a "one for one" exchange. General mods might not be as strong as specific mods. So if I get MBH, I'll get an additional 40 general speed mods, for a total 65. This will add in some way to the 45 heavy weapon speed that I have. So a plus 110 (for comparison sakes).

Now a master rifleman going MBH will have 60 Ranged Speed. This will add to the 65 rifle specific speed. Total 125 speed.

The rifle firing rate is already slated to be quicker than the heavy weapon rate. Add to that the planned 60% recon armor mitigation rate of fire that a Rifleman receives compared to the 20% assault armor rate of fire mitigation that a Commando will receive at Master, and I think we might be significantly outdamaged on DPS by the Riflemen. This would suggest that BH/Rifleman might be the preferred approach, for a speedy weapon user, if testing holds true in the longrun.

Anyway, this is all just speculation until testing happens, but the speed issue is one that I'm wary of at the moment. Perhaps the DOT burn, and the fact we are damaging multiple targets will make up for the speed issues, but with this team of glorious damage dealers doing the testing, I'm sure we'll have it figured out quickly!

Message Edited by Latenighter on 04-06-2005 03:07 PM



RIEN - Master Commando
"We are the guys skilled with all ranged weapons. They should let us act like it"
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