Commando Archive

Insecure posted this. I fixed some of his errors but felt it worth discussion here.

Ok lets compare the 2, Rifle vs Rocket Launcher
This is with no powerups & no weapon slices
Some of these numbers may be off but from what I have read & seen, all are reasonable averages

Master Rifleman

Apprentice 620
Combat 415,000
Rifle 3,891,000
Total EXP 4,306,620

Which isn't completely right because you need 259,000 More Weapons XP
To fill in the 25,900 Missing Combat XP

So Total EXP: 4,332,520

92 Total Skill Points used

Rifle Accuracy +102
Rifle Speed +90



T21 100-350 dmg w/ 7.0 speed


So lets use a T21 with StrafeShot2
(7.0x2.5)*.1= 1.75 Attack Speed
Base Damage: 100-350
StrafeShot2: 700-2450

with the target having AR1
you will be doing 50% More dmg (25% per AR)

New Damage: 1050-3675

With it being AR0 you'll do a bit more
New Damage: 1225-4287

And this is at an attack speed of 1.75

Vs an AR0 that's 700min to 3k max DPS.

Now compared to a Commando using a RL with HW3

Apprentice 620
Carbine 91,000
Combat 70,550
Heavy Weapons 600,000
Pistol 91,000
Rifle 91,000
Unarmed 91,000

Total EXP 1,035,170

124 Total Skill Points used
Yes this is a Commando with only 3 boxes outside Novice Filled.

Heavy Rocket Launcher Accuracy +60
Heavy Rocket Launcher Speed +60

RL Speed:
(8.7)*.4= 3.48 Attack Speed
Base Damage: 1171-3325

We get no specials, so there's no damage modifier for that.

Damage vs AR1
New Damage: 1756-4987

Damage vs AR0
New Damage: 2049-5818

So with our amazing 3.48 attack speed we'll be doing on an AR0 target a min 588 dps and max 1671.

Comparison:
T21 700min to 3k max DPS compared Vs RL min 588 dps and max 1671.

T21 +102 Accuracy compared to RL +60 (+70 master commando)
T21 +90 Speed vs RL +60 (tapes don't work yet...)

T21 1000/1000 life vs RL 28-200charges


Oh and for Master Commando:

Apprentice 1,240
Carbine 91,000
Combat 430,550
Heavy Weapons 3,425,000
Pistol 91,000
Rifle 91,000
Unarmed 91,000

Total EXP 4,220,790

But really thats not correct either

3,789,000 Weapons XP is only 378,900 Combat XP
Which is another 51650 Combat XP We need or an extra 516,500 Weapons XP

Total EXP: 4,737,290

169 Total Skill Points used

So lets see it comes out to this:
169 Skill Points used, 4.7 Million XP Gained
And I get to use a rocket launcher that averages 3900 Damage a Hit With a pathetic +60 Accuracy (and an attack speed of 1 shot every 3.48 Seconds) and I have to replace it every 30-200 shots.


While you get the following:
92 Skill Points used, 4.3 Million XP Gained
You're T21 averages 2750 Damage a Hit
With +102 To Accuracy
And an attack speed of 1.75
And you're gun lasts months.

From SOE

Armor Rating expresses the minimum Armor Piercing value of a weapon needed for the weapon to do its full damage. If the armor's Armor Rating is equal to the weapon's Armor Piercing, there is no effect. If the Armor Rating is higher, however, there is a 50% reduction for each level difference. Therefore for the bone gloves against this CDEF Pistol's Armor Rating of None (fig. 2), damage is reduced by 50% off of the top. But in the case of the Power Hammer (fig. 3), its Armor Piercing is higher than the Armor Rating. It therefore does 25% more damage. Note that the 50% reduction or 25% increase occurs for each level. So if that CDEF were to be used against an AT-ST whose Armor Rating is Heavy, there would be a three level difference. So damage would be reduced by 50%, then another 50%, and another 50% for merely 12.5% of the initial damage.

So Ap3 weapons get a damage bonuse vs
AP0 195.30%
AP1 156.30%
AP2 125.00%
AP3 100.00%

So again NPC the RL 1171 - 3325 will do assuming no innate blast resist

VS
AP0 2285 - 6493 Min/Max with DPS of 656-1865
AP1 1828 - 5195 Min/Max with DPS of 525-1492
AP2 1463 - 4156 Min/Max with DPS of 420-1194
AP3 1171 - 3325 Min/Max with DPS of 336- 955

In PvP, assuming no blast resists.

VS
AP0 571 - 1623
AP1 457 - 1298
AP2 365 - 1039
AP3 292 - 831

I would like to know from the devs if /fireheavyweapon1 has some sort of damage increase modifier to it. I am able to do about 7 or 800 damage with a rocket launcher currentlyand its max is 560dmg.

Couple things...

Combat exp for Novice Commando is 40K. That is effectively 400K weapons exp that go wasted. So to balance the NC minimums, add the extra 400K weapon exp that is earned but wasted.

I don't know how the weapon speed equation works. You post (7.0x2.5)*.1, but I don't know how you're getting that from theRifle Speed +90 and 7.0 speed of the weapon. Mind enlightening me on that one? I've been asking around, but no one ever posted the eq.

Differences to consider:

Rifle move costs HAM, RL does not. Not costing HAM is a bonus, but the question is: for all the extra costs, should we do less damage because of it? I say no, because we also do not get the special effects. (Dizzy, knockdown, blind, hitting a single HAM pool etc. are all beyond us too.)

The real question is: should aMaster single weaponuser be able to kill aNPC (special moves or not) faster than a Master Commando?

If that answer is "Yes" or even "sometimes", then the excessive pre-reqs of the Commando are trivialized.

The Pistoleer is the highest DPS single weapon class. Let's compare a Master Doctor/Master Pistoleer to a Master Medic/Master Commando.

The Master Doctor can obviously heal at least as well as the Master Medic. He can also heal status ailments, Revive, and buff for long durations. I don't need to go into details... the Doctor is far above the Medic in capacity.

What does the Master Commando gain for the loss of such enormously powerful Doctor abilities? In comparison, the Master Commando should not even be recognizable on the same scale as the Master Pistoleer, but this is not so, and even with these changes, it will still not be so.

It will only be a better.

The Master Commando should not be taking out an unarmored NPC faster than a pistoleer or rifleman. Instead they get bonuses against the heavily armored opponents in the that they don't loose damage due to it while every other proffession except rifleman do loose atleast 50% of their damage. Its notright to compare taking out an AR 0 or 1 NPC with 5-10K of HAM and taking out a 5-10K AR3 critter. The lower one is more vulnerable to small arms fire and is therefore mowed down more easily by a light fast weapon. The Ar3 though laughs at the light fast weapons as it deflects all the damage. The commando gets to do 3Kish or so of unblocked damage vs an AR3 target (even more since most AR3 things are getting a vulnerability to blast) every 4 seconds or so. The pistoleer does 5000 damage during that time before reductions, cut in half and then half again and you get 2500/2 = 1250 damage for the same time as the commando AND they had to pay the ham cost on stopping shot to do this. Thats less than HALF your damage using an AR1 DX2. The rifleman with the T-21 does unblocked damage aswell but it still can't compare to your damage vs time particularly since all higher AR targets get 70% or so reduction to energy.

The best example you can relate a commando to an anti-personel class like the BH is the commando is a Howitzervs the BH armed with an M16 or a SAW. Fire against people, the howitzer will take them out kinda, but the infantryman will mow them down much quicker. Fire against a tank and the infantry man tickles it while the howitzer rips it apart.

Notice: There maybe some rambling in the above post, unfortunately lack of sleep causes this. Please accept my apology.

First off - you missed at least one multiplier on the Rocket launcher. Commandos may not get any special with it - but it does upto x2 the "listed" damage range on a normal shot. I was frequently getting 1k+ hits out of a 580 damage rocket launcher. (And no this was not due to the AP3 vs AR0 thing - that doesn't actually work "as intended" atm. The way it works currently on live is that damage is reduced if the weapons AP isless thanthe AR of the target, but there is no increase when the AP is greater. Try some experiments with AP1 or 2 pistols/carbines - its easy to see)

The second nasty point (which no rifleman wants to hear) is that rifle damage is vaguely unbalanced atm. Yeah yeah they take penalties for it, but they are hiding behind flawed DPS calculations to justify their current damage. (Because there is effectively NO delay on anyones first shot, regardless of the weapons speed - which given the number of things rifleman can effectively one-shot makes DPS a very silly way to measure their abilities. And thats without even getting into the fact that slicing/powerups and speed skill ALL favor slower/higher damage weapons - because the slower the base speed, the more the 30% slice and the 33% powerup take off, even before the speed skill is applied)

BTW as a total aside not relevant to this conversation:

This line is the biggest fallacy and myth of the game and boards currently, "The Pistoleer is the highest DPS single weapon class"

I'm sorry but this is utter bs. I'm a master marksmanand well on my way to master pistoleer. Just to confirm to myself that I wasn't nuts I bought a new good carbine (on a par with the level of pistols I have been using), with a good 30% speed slice on it - and a crate of +33% speed powerups..even just with master marksman level skills I can do more damage with the carbine easily...its all in the weapons you use.

A commando should be taking out unarmored npcs faster than a pistoleer in some cases..If you fire a rocket at something not wearing armor..theres not going to be much of that something left..

Smoking boots maybe..?

Thanks Gray03. I wasn't aware of this. I'll go do some testing of my own and pay attention to the numbers.

I'll even do some pvp and see. Kinda sad if that's true that the basic math of what they tell us isn't being used.

No RL's on my server make it kinda hard as well.

Been killing too many **edit** bunnies. I can see them in my sleep. Big floppy ears and those big pointy nasty teeth!!

[/quote]

A commando should be taking out unarmored npcs faster than a pistoleer in some cases..If you fire a rocket at something not wearing armor..theres not going to be much of that something left..[/quote]

I'm not a commando but one of my regular teammates and good friend's is. And that's his usual line. If we look at this from a proper physics aspect. Rifle = long accurate range with a hole in the person dead. RL = mid not compeletly accurate big ass blast with parts of flesh, bone and blood all over the place or missing.

Come on folks. It's a rocket launcher! yes its suppost to be better aganist tanks but it should be just as good aganist people/animals too. It's still gonna make them go boom in one big mess and it should. Not knock the person backa bit like they got flicked on the nose and keep fighting. A little does of reality please.

It looks right to me. This is the point with the profession....it's not the uber dmg profession if you consider the lack of specials. If we had a mod to apply to the RL ( /quakejump1) we'd be the dmg dealers in the game.

IMO you need to look at the numbers in light of the changes to AT-ST's and turrets. We'll deal full dmg to them vs. 70% resistance, and we'll have an area of effect dmg (vs point dmg from the T21). The devs are making us what the originally described....dmg dealers vs hardened targets.

Ivoni....btw....something we should be putting up for the devs is making grenades with some AOE effects like stun or blind (though I think the LP graphics are a /groupblind now)....or even a KD. Flashbangs, concussion grenades....all that makes sense and would give us another crowd control option.

Heh, that's why the Commandos are supposed to fight tanks, not people.

i think its right
thats why I posted it though heh

it could be off in a few aspects for 1, I couldn't find an absolute modifier for StrafeShot2
so I took what people where saying they did and it averaged out to be around 1:7 ratio when using it

the speed, assuming (the general assumption) is that its based off %
+100 would be a speed of the original times .1
minimum speed being 1
this could be off a little (devs would have to clarify)

also, at master marksman rifle gets another +5 speed boost if they really want to fire faster as well they get an accuracy boost
also, I noticed alot of posts where people were saying they were gettin rifle shots for 5000 some odd damage and people saying 4000 damage was "no big deal"

all in all it seemed to all check out