Commando Archive
Thread: My Vision of the [Heavy Weapons] Commando, why the CU falls short, and what can be done to fix it.
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JoKen_Jash
Wed Apr 13, 2005 10:45 am
#1
Ok. From day one, we've been the super high damage dealers, with super slow weapons. Speed was a luxury. In live we can do well over 12k damage with flamesingle2. This is how I think it should be. However, on live, our speed is WAY too high, which I think needed to be fixed.
In the CU, our specials, all of them, were removed. We're now lucky if we do 1.5k damage in one shot. I find that... just plain wrong. Sure, we're fast, but, for some reason, it just doesn't feel right. You see, I think of commando as a super heavy damage dealer, with low speed. The CU vision the devs seem to have is relatively high damage dealer with normal speed. We're normally on par with rifleman, except for the fact that we have absolutely NO SPECIALS. Sure, they're built into our weapons, you say. Yeah, but, how does that enhance the base dps of the weapon on a stand-alone basis (not being a specials shopper)? We're actually somewhat below on speed and damage with a rifleman. They get range and damage, we get effects, area attacks, and less damage. WAIT A SECOND! Shouldn't we be the ultimate damage dealer? I think that's how most of us feel it should be right now, but it isn't. Instead, we get less range, less damage, and more effects than the other high damage range profession, which has been turned into little more than a sniper. We're the tank busters/infantry clean up crew, they're the snipers. Why do we have lesser damage?
So here's my solution:
At master, give us one singe special. Make it the most powerful (yes, I said most powerful) ranged special in the game, save perhaps last ditch and perhapssniper shot (not sure how much damage sniper shot actually does with a T-21, but I know it's rediculously difficult to pull off). The trade off of this special: It has an insanely long cool down timer andincreases the speed of your weapon by a factor of 2 (a weapon with a speed of 2 gets increased to 4) when you use it, until you use another special. Call it whatever you want, power blast, heavy shot... heck, call it polka-dot shot for all I care.
This special would allow us to play two different styles: fast, lighter damage, or slow, heavier damage. I just know I'm gonna miss my flame specials A LOT once the CU hits live. The masterbox level would also keep dabblers from simply getting the attack without a huge skill sink.
If I could get some dev feedback on this, it would be appreciated.
Message Edited by JoKen_Jash on 04-13-2005 03:05 PM
Excess3
Wed Apr 13, 2005 11:29 am
#2
I always did enjoy the "I can kill it in 1 hit" play style. Its easily balanced by making it "I can kill it in 1 hit.. as along as I actually do kill it, don't miss, and he doesn't have any friends near by" but then that sounds alot like the sniper.
I always saw commando as a little more flexible than that. I see them more like the commandos is Republic Commando. They all could hold thier own doing just about anything but each of your group members had a specialy. Demolishions, sniping, Heavy Weapons, Squad leader. This is the second class/dabble. This is how I see our current build. I don't think we are ment to be a stand alone class. We are designed to be enhanced by another class or to enhance another class. You can have a commbat/support (carbines/CM), combat/non-combat (TKA/Tailor), non-combat/noncombat (WS/Merchatn), or a combat/combat profession. The combat/combat then gets divided into a broad scope and a narrow scope. Broad scope would be like Pistoleet/TKM or Carbines/2handed. Narrow scope would concentrate more on 1 type of fighting: Carbine/BH, fencer/2h, Commando/BH, Pistoleer/smuggler.
Because of this narrow scope you need enhancing profession. Thats where BH, Smuggler, and Commando come in. I see commando as the gereric enhancer. Its role in the grand puzzle of professions is to balance out the enhancement so nothing gets over enhanced. Sure, BH,Pistoleer,smuggler is a pretty nasty combo. But you always have commando to give the extra oomph to any ranged profession thanks to its heavy weapons. Because of this, heavy weapons can't really be made too much like rifles, too much like pistols, or too much like carbines. However, they can't bo so different that it negates the bonus they give.
So we are left with a fast fireing, decent damage dealing, decent range weapon. Maybe they shouldn't be called Heavy Weapons and just be called Special Weapons. That would make commando a Special Weapons master, the guy you go to when you need something exotic. Which sounds a little more like Special Forces rather than a Commando.
Wow. That was a long braing dump. I'm sorry about that. No I didn't check for continutity or spelling.
I always saw commando as a little more flexible than that. I see them more like the commandos is Republic Commando. They all could hold thier own doing just about anything but each of your group members had a specialy. Demolishions, sniping, Heavy Weapons, Squad leader. This is the second class/dabble. This is how I see our current build. I don't think we are ment to be a stand alone class. We are designed to be enhanced by another class or to enhance another class. You can have a commbat/support (carbines/CM), combat/non-combat (TKA/Tailor), non-combat/noncombat (WS/Merchatn), or a combat/combat profession. The combat/combat then gets divided into a broad scope and a narrow scope. Broad scope would be like Pistoleet/TKM or Carbines/2handed. Narrow scope would concentrate more on 1 type of fighting: Carbine/BH, fencer/2h, Commando/BH, Pistoleer/smuggler.
Because of this narrow scope you need enhancing profession. Thats where BH, Smuggler, and Commando come in. I see commando as the gereric enhancer. Its role in the grand puzzle of professions is to balance out the enhancement so nothing gets over enhanced. Sure, BH,Pistoleer,smuggler is a pretty nasty combo. But you always have commando to give the extra oomph to any ranged profession thanks to its heavy weapons. Because of this, heavy weapons can't really be made too much like rifles, too much like pistols, or too much like carbines. However, they can't bo so different that it negates the bonus they give.
So we are left with a fast fireing, decent damage dealing, decent range weapon. Maybe they shouldn't be called Heavy Weapons and just be called Special Weapons. That would make commando a Special Weapons master, the guy you go to when you need something exotic. Which sounds a little more like Special Forces rather than a Commando.
Wow. That was a long braing dump. I'm sorry about that. No I didn't check for continutity or spelling.
JoKen_Jash
Wed Apr 13, 2005 11:46 am
#3
I'm not necessairly saying that commando isn't like that, but it isn't like that in this game. In this game, Commando = Heavy Weapons Specialist. Why else would we have two missle/rocket launching weapons? Also, generally, Heavy Weapons = Slow, high damage weapons. If you're anywhere near where a rocket launcher hits, you're dead, end of subject. Not, you can stand there and it'll take 10 hits from a rocket launcher or morebefore you dielike it is in the CUnow. Plus, I didn't say we'd have like a 12 second delay on it, closer to a 4 or 5 second delay, even that may be too much. The same argument can be used with all our weapons: If you get hit by a flamethrower, you're dead, or will be in the next 5 seconds. If you get a particle beam shot straight through you, you're dead. If you get hit by a gigantic stream of acid, you'll be a pool of acid saturated flesh in a few seconds. If you get blasted by a beam of electricity, chances are, you're dead, or paralyzed, dazed, and in no condition to fight. If you get hit by a stream of plasma, you may as well forget it, because you are plain GONE. The list goes on...
Yet right now, our weapons seem far underpowered. I really think we need something to boost our weapons into doing what they used to do, though with a bit more speed to it.
StarNick
Wed Apr 13, 2005 1:30 pm
#4
Well one thing I must say...it was rather neat hitting for an insane amount of damage and "decpaitate" our enemy to a degree. The consequence of that...was absolutely no defense. If that was kept in the current system, we'd definately see our defense number fall to one...
In my opinion, that wouldn't do us justice one bit. In order to be destructive, we must at the very least be able to cart our WMDs to the battlefield - whats the point of being -that- destructive? It requires us to rely on groups almost exclusively as well as certain professions that a hybrid shouldn't be forced to rely on. I could see it being understandable if we didn't take up 121 skillpoints (yes, the extra 15 really makes a difference!) This would reduce the flexibility of the new professions for us, which in my opinion is a very flexible system that is also very rewarding in terms of abilities (although I believe that the levels as they currently stand, as well as "tier weapons" rather than having the original proposed system of damage modes are not all that flexible...)
Instead, each profession is "equalized" in terms of damage. But...the 64 million dollar question isn't what profession can outdamage which profession. No, its what profession can do what that the other can't. Except for cold damage, we get a BIG range of high-damaging elemental damage. Which I might add, 75% is in our top tier weapon tiers...some of the most damaging weapons in the game. Combine that with AoE....our old system damage is still there, albeit balanced into the new system and dispersed, subtly, into our weapons.
Although, a master level special would certainly be great...we are still powerful in lesser seen ways, that have explosive returns. That being of course...when we work 100% as we should
. I like the idea of a uber special at MC, but that *could* potentially be unbalancing unfortunately 
. But, we haven't fully tested everything yet...once DoTs, damages, and the such are properly tweaked and fixed...we should be fairly potent - and against a number of enemies at once, giving us that once humorous description of our profession being feared on the battlefield...a deadly reality. (well..virtually)
Btw, technically we get more damage as our weapons are .2 slower than rifles...and states...and DoTs...and pazzaze
In my opinion, that wouldn't do us justice one bit. In order to be destructive, we must at the very least be able to cart our WMDs to the battlefield - whats the point of being -that- destructive? It requires us to rely on groups almost exclusively as well as certain professions that a hybrid shouldn't be forced to rely on. I could see it being understandable if we didn't take up 121 skillpoints (yes, the extra 15 really makes a difference!) This would reduce the flexibility of the new professions for us, which in my opinion is a very flexible system that is also very rewarding in terms of abilities (although I believe that the levels as they currently stand, as well as "tier weapons" rather than having the original proposed system of damage modes are not all that flexible...)
Instead, each profession is "equalized" in terms of damage. But...the 64 million dollar question isn't what profession can outdamage which profession. No, its what profession can do what that the other can't. Except for cold damage, we get a BIG range of high-damaging elemental damage. Which I might add, 75% is in our top tier weapon tiers...some of the most damaging weapons in the game. Combine that with AoE....our old system damage is still there, albeit balanced into the new system and dispersed, subtly, into our weapons.
Although, a master level special would certainly be great...we are still powerful in lesser seen ways, that have explosive returns. That being of course...when we work 100% as we should
. I like the idea of a uber special at MC, but that *could* potentially be unbalancing unfortunately . But, we haven't fully tested everything yet...once DoTs, damages, and the such are properly tweaked and fixed...we should be fairly potent - and against a number of enemies at once, giving us that once humorous description of our profession being feared on the battlefield...a deadly reality. (well..virtually)Btw, technically we get more damage as our weapons are .2 slower than rifles...and states...and DoTs...and pazzaze
JoKen_Jash
Wed Apr 13, 2005 3:55 pm
#5
StarNick wrote:
Well one thing I must say...it was rather neat hitting for an insane amount of damage and "decpaitate" our enemy to a degree. The consequence of that...was absolutely no defense. If that was kept in the current system, we'd definately see our defense number fall to one...
In my opinion, that wouldn't do us justice one bit. In order to be destructive, we must at the very least be able to cart our WMDs to the battlefield - whats the point of being -that- destructive? It requires us to rely on groups almost exclusively as well as certain professions that a hybrid shouldn't be forced to rely on. I could see it being understandable if we didn't take up 121 skillpoints (yes, the extra 15 really makes a difference!) This would reduce the flexibility of the new professions for us, which in my opinion is a very flexible system that is also very rewarding in terms of abilities (although I believe that the levels as they currently stand, as well as "tier weapons" rather than having the original proposed system of damage modes are not all that flexible...)
Instead, each profession is "equalized" in terms of damage. But...the 64 million dollar question isn't what profession can outdamage which profession. No, its what profession can do what that the other can't. Except for cold damage, we get a BIG range of high-damaging elemental damage. Which I might add, 75% is in our top tier weapon tiers...some of the most damaging weapons in the game. Combine that with AoE....our old system damage is still there, albeit balanced into the new system and dispersed, subtly, into our weapons.
Although, a master level special would certainly be great...we are still powerful in lesser seen ways, that have explosive returns. That being of course...when we work 100% as we should
Btw, technically we get more damage as our weapons are .2 slower than rifles...and states...and DoTs...and pazzaze
That's just the problem. I don't think our flame dot will actually DO much anymore. With the lack of dot, we just become... a simple, averageutillity profession. I don't really like that idea...
StarNick
Wed Apr 13, 2005 4:47 pm
#6
Since the DoT currently isn't working...thats still up in the high for now
Jeren_Sehn
Thu Apr 14, 2005 5:42 am
#7
If we really can convert other Professions' specials to AoE attacks, that is potentially huge. AoE roots and snares and other mezzes and AoE intimidate or other state and posture attacks are a good thing. Taking a high damage single-target special and converting it to a high damage AoE one: priceless.
The downside is that specials that are already Area of Effect attacks are not sexy to have in the template, but they're still useful; it's merely that our version of them would have no more power than the "plain vanilla" version.
Granted the flame DoT looks a bit unimpressive, but perhaps Commandos will stop being defined by their flame DoT after the CU.
The downside is that specials that are already Area of Effect attacks are not sexy to have in the template, but they're still useful; it's merely that our version of them would have no more power than the "plain vanilla" version.
Granted the flame DoT looks a bit unimpressive, but perhaps Commandos will stop being defined by their flame DoT after the CU.
Message Edited by Jeren_Sehn on 04-14-2005 08:44 AM
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