Commando Archive
Thread: Garvin, why i mean cross-weapon specials spells doom for the commando.
I understand that you say the revamp is supposed to throw everything as we know it out the window, but that wont mean the commando's role will change. Therein lies the issue.
The way I see it, if all the sudden the revamp allows all proffs to use other's specials, we can well see pistoleers and carbineers using Mind Shot and Head shot... no biggie no? Perhaps not if you carbineer,pistoleer, BH or Smuggler... but commando?
Heh, an acid rifle or flamer with their high damage stats firing on specific ham bars would be very overpowered. The whines will flow in and the nerfing will come in preettttyyy quick.
Im basing this on the weapon's stats themselves. And, if SOE does change the commando weapon stats you can bet your arse its gonna be to nerf them to the point we're back to being screwed. Its not like there's precedence to this you know.
i still believe the best thing that can be done to commando is to give them 'grandmaster marksman' abilities, half the accuracy and speed mods for all marksman weapons equal to half of the mods found on pistoleer/carbineer/rifleman on the master commando box, adding the status effects on grenades+increasing their ideal range (which i hope its part of the revamp already) and to give the commando the choice of which ham bar to hit (if revamp still has any-3-ham-bar-at-0=kill gameplay style) for the shoulder mounted heavy weapons.
But the HAR/Flamer (and LLC) should not be allowed to use ham-specific specials. Else the nerf WILL hit us in the arse.. AGAIN.
tacwraith wrote:
While the idea is good for other proffessions who'se DPS is based, by proffession role, on high damage over time, it is dooming for the commando who'se dps is based on front-loaded damage (aka does the damage other proffessions do in 10 shots in ONE shot, but waits 10 times longer than the other proffs to refire).
I understand that you say the revamp is supposed to throw everything as we know it out the window, but that wont mean the commando's role will change. Therein lies the issue.
The way I see it, if all the sudden the revamp allows all proffs to use other's specials, we can well see pistoleers and carbineers using Mind Shot and Head shot... no biggie no? Perhaps not if you carbineer,pistoleer, BH or Smuggler... but commando?
Heh, an acid rifle or flamer with their high damage stats firing on specific ham bars would be very overpowered. The whines will flow in and the nerfing will come in preettttyyy quick.
Im basing this on the weapon's stats themselves. And, if SOE does change the commando weapon stats you can bet your arse its gonna be to nerf them to the point we're back to being screwed. Its not like there's precedence to this you know.
i still believe the best thing that can be done to commando is to give them 'grandmaster marksman' abilities, half the accuracy and speed mods for all marksman weapons equal to half of the mods found on pistoleer/carbineer/rifleman on the master commando box, adding the status effects on grenades+increasing their ideal range (which i hope its part of the revamp already) and to give the commando the choice of which ham bar to hit (if revamp still has any-3-ham-bar-at-0=kill gameplay style) for the shoulder mounted heavy weapons.
But the HAR/Flamer (and LLC) should not be allowed to use ham-specific specials. Else the nerf WILL hit us in the arse.. AGAIN.
It's really hard to explain this hypothetical idea when you don't have access to all the information...I could point to about 30 places in the docs I have that would put all your worries to rest and most likely make you change your mind BIG TIME...but I can't unfortunately...
The key thing you have to remember is that Commandos will always be the Heavy Damage specialists...this means we'll be the most powerful per shot...and, working on the Sandbox, we'll get our DPS comparable to other professions...
To fully understand this idea you have to understand the way damage, speed, accuracy, HAM, armor, etc. is changing...The biggest thing is HAM...you last line referenced "ham-specific specials"...you are assuming that HAM drain will work the same...it won't...This will be a key point for us to focus on in the Revamp...the HAM changes and what they mean to us...along with the changes to Armor, damage, defenses, etc...
If we had /headshot on our FT for example...it would not mean the same thing for us as it would mean for a Rifleman with their T21...Of course we wouldn't be as fast or accurate, BUT, we'd have the higher power that makes up for the speed and accuracy (and this is what would have to be balanced over time)...
And yes...Every weapon is having their stats changed...but you'd be foolish calling it a NERF at this point or even thinking that way...you can't base any future change off of what exists in game now...For example (and this is NOT happening as far as I now)...let's say they reduced our FT by 200 in max damage...that would look like a huge NERF...but what if ALL weapons were reduced by that amount (or percentage there of) and what if the new Damage formula took that new lower number and in the end made our new output higher then what it is today...That's what I mean by not jumping to conclusions based off of what is in game now and what you think might happen...
In the hypothetical idea of cross profession specials (an idea that was brought up by someone else...I just continued the discussion on it), why not have cross professions specials...It would give me the ability to have Ranged shots that work on my weapon of choice (something we've been asking for...ranged specials)...I could use those ranged specials with my FT, my HAR or my LP if I choose...I spent the time grinding in those other professions, why shouldn't I be able to use the rewards of my grinding? And if I wanted to use those specials like a Rifleman, then I could use the Rifle I was certed in Rifleman for them...but if I just want a Ranged special, then I'll use my FT with the ranged special...The rifleman will always be more accuracy and speedy with their own specials...but the Commando would be more powerful with them (sacrificing the rifleman speed and accuracy)...And in this idea, not ALL specials would be cross professions...the most powerful would be weapon dependent (like our Flame Specials would remain ours...Last Ditch would probably stay with Smugglers as a Pistol Special, etc)...But all those specials you got via Marksman would work with your Commando weapons making Marksman that much more worthwhile a pre-req and better fitting the idea of "Initial Training" to get to Commando...you shouldn't lose what you learn as you progress...you should be BUILDING on it...Those specials should take on a whole new life dependent on the profession/weapon they are used with...becoming more powerful if used by a Commando with a Heavy Weapon, or More speedy and Accurate if used by a Rifleman witha Rifle...
The key thing that you seem unwilling to take in is that even the Specials themselves will be getting tweaked on their numbers along with Weapons...Damage will be done differently and applied differently...HAM will work very much differently in the way we get incapp'd and die...Armor will absorb damage differently and at different levels...Accuracy and Speed will work differently and we may or may not have certain advantages or disadvantages that we don't currently have...
What I'm trying to say, is there is no way any of us can currently shoot down any idea regarding what may or may not come by basing our arguements on what we think the effect will be based on the way the game works today...Your basically shooting down an idea that, for all you know, could be the single greatest thing to happen to our profession (if it happens), but you lack vital info needed to make an informed opinion...
I really wish I could reveal what I know...I so want to tell you certain facts that I know would change your mind...and when Sandbox testing starts, this "hypothetical" idea will make 100 times more sense and we'll hope the Devs go with it...Professions will see themselves in a whole new light...trust me on that...
Message Edited by garvin on 10-05-2004 03:47 PM
Garvin already said it, but I'm gonna say it again. The Devs have already stated they are totally changing the HAM system, HAM specific attacks, special attacks, damage absorbtion (through mitigation and armor), etc. etc.
Please people. Stop basing your counter arguments on conditions that will no longer apply. I know this makes it difficult to get a good discussion going, but it can be done. By basing our arguments on the current condition of the game, we are just spinning our wheels and not making any real progress into turning commando into the very enjoyable class we know it can be.
Once again, nothing against you Tac, in fact you are alot better in you'r argument than most, plus I agree with your idea. We should be more versatile with the basic weapons and with our elite weapons. I like the idea of giving us half of he other masters (although a third would seem more numbers friendly).
I would like to inject my own spin and say that once you get master marksman, all marksman skills (Specials) should be usable with any ranged weapon you aquire, leaving the Elite specials for use only with weapons gained in your elite profession.
For example.
As a master Rifleman, master commando I could use mindshot1 with any ranged weapon I am certified in. T21, FT, FWG5... whatever.
However, Mincshot 2 I could only use with a weapon certed in the Rifleman profession (T21, DXR6-B).
This would increase versatility with the basic weapons that are "easier to use" leaving the more complex attacks and weapons only to those that devote the extra effort to use them.
I'm just getting a little frustration and this is my version of Mt. St. Helen steaming.
*edit* My basis for making the marksman specials universal is not that they are low damage, or will give you the ablitlity to hit all three pools, but the fact that they are supposed to be considered basic marksman skills. (in other words, the definition of Marksman)
Message Edited by Excess3 on 10-05-2004 06:32 PM
garvin wrote:
Tac...let's try it this way...
I know you are not in favor of cross profession specials, but if you had no choice, they were definitely going in, what do you think would need to change in game to make cross profession specials work?
I'm curious how you would make it work (or anyone else, for that matter) if you knew it was going to happen?
Or do you really think, no matter any number of changes that could happen in game, that cross profession specials could ever work?
What I am scared of is this:
They couldn't make our current specials (or weapons)work correctly, or get the calculations right.
What do you think is going to happen the minute a Master Commando tries using strafeshot2 with a flamer? His HAM (or "specials" pool - whatever the case may be)is going to go down faster than Debbie in a locker room full of Cowboys...
Until they show me the money, I am going to consider them flat ass broke, with a credit score so bad they couldnt finance a stick of chewing gum (much less chew it and walk at the same time)
Signed,
Bate Aki
The Perpetual Pessimist
Like I said before, I really dont give snot about other proffessions being changed to use cross-proffession specials. The problem is that commando is the front-loaded damage dealer in the game... the ONLY front-loaded damage dealer there is. The revamp may very well balance all the other proffessions, but the commando's front-loaded damage role will either get dumped (which is real bad imo) or nerfed (just as bad) or even worse, make the commando be extremely overpowered upon release of the revamp, bringing down the whining from everyone else and then commando will pay the price by getting super-nerfed as SOE scrambles to put out the whines (precedence: defense stacking mod nerf AFTER the dodge/evade was fixed..and that was the only issue to defense stacking there was)
"I know you are not in favor of cross profession specials, but if you had no choice, they were definitely going in, what do you think would need to change in game to make cross profession specials work"
I'd like to make something clear before I go on.. im only against cross-proffession specials working on Flamethrower/HAR/LLC (heavy weapons), im all FOR letting all other weapon types use cross-proffession specials.
"Or do you really think, no matter any number of changes that could happen in game, that cross profession specials could ever work?"
They will work with all BUT heavy weapons. It doesnt matter if SOE lowers weapon stat damage across the board, the heavy weapons will always have much higher damage stats than other weapons, else they will be pointless. Yes, commando can use cross-proffession specials.. using marksman cert weapons. And when I meant ham-specific specials I meant as in headshot hitting mind bar not the cost to the player firing it.
I know for a fact that if the heavy weapons are allowed to use cross-weapon specials, no matter WHAT changes SOE makes to the combat system, we WILL be getting massive whines from people screaming about commando overpowering others.... just like we got whines about the flamethrower dot (and we know how what a screwed up nerf TH personally sent our way). If a master rifleman hits me from max range for 800 damage and next time I see a commando hitting me for 1500 damage from max range with a flamethrower, you know very well riflemen will be whining to high heaven about commando being overpowered..and they WILL overlook our range issues (i seriously doubt SOE is gonna turn the flamer into an all ranges weapons so its safe to assume the flamer remains a close quarters weapon as far as accuracy mods will be) and get us nerfed. Again, refer to flamer dot as evidence.
Again, I dont know what you know Garvin, but I KNOW what SOE can and has done. In short, I dont trust 'their word' that its gonna be fixed. Im just giving ye a warning of what will likely happen if heavy weapons do get cross-weapon specials.
Just remember : http://www.gucomics.com/comics/gu_20030815.jpg
They did that to Commando after they patched the flamer then again when the 2.5x melee damage penalty was put on us, then again when the dot was nerfed to be non-fatal then AGAIN when the commando flamer was rendered pretty much useless in PVP by fire blankets and stuff.
Message Edited by tacwraith on 10-06-2004 02:47 AM
garvin wrote:
If we had /headshot on our FT for example...it would not mean the same thing for us as it would mean for a Rifleman with their T21...Of course we wouldn't be as fast or accurate, BUT, we'd have the higher power that makes up for the speed and accuracy (and this is what would have to be balanced over time)...
And yes...Every weapon is having their stats changed...but you'd be foolish calling it a NERF at this point or even thinking that way...you can't base any future change off of what exists in game now...For example (and this is NOT happening as far as I now)...let's say they reduced our FT by 200 in max damage...that would look like a huge NERF...but what if ALL weapons were reduced by that amount (or percentage there of) and what if the new Damage formula took that new lower number and in the end made our new output higher then what it is today...That's what I mean by not jumping to conclusions based off of what is in game now and what you think might happen...
I'll use my FT with the ranged special...The rifleman will always be more accuracy and speedy with their own specials...but the Commando would be more powerful with them (sacrificing the rifleman speed and accuracy)...And in this idea, not ALL specials would be cross professions...the most powerful would be weapon dependent (like our Flame Specials would remain ours...Last Ditch would probably stay with Smugglers as a Pistol Special, etc)
First, I love this "hypothetical" concept, but three questions:
- There would be a clear trade-off for Commandos. You get a great special with big damage, but you can't use that special the same way a Pistoleer, Carbineer, or Rifleman could. However, I'm curious how applying this concept to BHs would work? BH's have Pistol, Carbine, and soon-to-be Heavy Weapon skills. What trade-off penalty wouldBH's suffer from usting Pistoleer, Carbine, or Commando specials since skills from those areas are notoutside of their area ofspecialization the way they would be for commandos.
- What does your majic 8-ball say about pre-revamp weapons? Would they be left untouched, or would the changes be retroactive for existing weapons? Is there a chance even the damage types (energy, blast, acid, etc.) would be changed?
- What would encourage a player to switch weapons other than damage type? A player might want to switch from a blastweaponto acid, but otherwise, what would encourage a Commando to use anything but the FT? Would some skills only convert to specific weapons (i.e. Rifleman skills only apply to FT, Carbine skills apply to Acid Rifle, etc)?
garvin wrote:
Excellent questions...are you sure you aren't a reporter trying to get a scoop...I'll try to answer what I can, but I can't make promises...
Nope, just a fellow player who's enjoyed this game for a long time and want to reach it's full potential. I enjoy the thought that's put into things on this board. I'm not even a Commando (MBH +M. Pistoleer), though I was back in the day we earned Pistol xp, the devswondered why it was silly we didn't want to be throwing grenades at our feet, and nunas struck fear in our hearts.This board isa very pleasant break from the Jedi/Melee BH bashing you see all over the BH boards.
Rockhurst wrote:
First, I love this "hypothetical" concept, but three questions:
1) There would be a clear trade-off for Commandos. You get a great special with big damage, but you can't use that special the same way a Pistoleer, Carbineer, or Rifleman could. However, I'm curious how applying this concept to BHs would work? BH's have Pistol, Carbine, and soon-to-be Heavy Weapon skills. What trade-off penalty wouldBH's suffer from usting Pistoleer, Carbine, or Commando specials since skills from those areas are not outside of their area ofspecialization the way they would be for commandos.
...it would be my belief that it would come down to strategy. It would all depend on what weapon type they'd want to use (stats playing a big part), their level of speed and accuracy on that weapon type, and how the special will be impacted via the weapon and associated mods. If I could impliment this idea, I would make it so that profession specific mods would always rate higher with the specials that came from that profession so that, as an example, a Rifleman would always be better with a rifleman granted special, but a commando or Bounty Hunter could still use a rifleman granted special with their weapons. I think I get what you're saying, but let me check...take eyeshot from MBH as an example (not just because I'm a MBH, but because of the relevance). Are you saying that BH would have a different set of pistol mods (ex. Bounty Hunter Pistol Speed) than Pistoleer? If so, how would that work with a MBH + M. Pistol? If the MBH only has (making these numbers up since it can all change via Revamp) +50 BH Pistolaccuracy/speed and has +75 Pistoleer Pistol accuracy/speed that the BH would use the +50 accuracy/speed over the pistoleer skills? I would think any Pistoleer/MBH or Carbineer/MBH templates would get to stack their skills. If a Pistoleer only takes enough BH to get eyeshot, unless there are separate pistoleer/BH skill mods, how do you make the BH better at eyeshot than pistoleer? You could make a Master level eyeshot2 with a lower delay and/or higher dmg, but is that really the answer?
Think about it this way...what if Targetting the Mind bar became the only way to kill a specific target something...andwhat if it was only the Health bar for another target...and then there were soem targets that you could take down any bar to kill it...you'd need specials that could target specific bars...but Commandos don't have that specific ability to target certain specific bars...but what if they could get that ability in a special taken from another Profession and then applied to their weapon of choice...How do I currently target the mind with my FT, or Health, or Action...More then that, what if I could prevent my opponent from using certain key specials on me, but exhausting a specific bar of theirs first? Having a special that could target certain HAM bars could become very strategic if used in the right circumstances you would think...When the public docs start coming out, keep an eye out for the updated HAM changes and how they relate to combat... This is a lot like my above example. You see Pistoleers going for eyeshot and Last Ditch (plus the speed and accuracyfrom BH pistols).Gaining the ability to target a specific HAMbar would definitely benefit commandos, but how would it help a profession like BH that already has some of that ability? The one area that I can see it helping a BH is that a BH could now hit all different HAM bars with only one weapon. But, quite frankly this seems to be a cop-out on how to get around the weapon switch delay. BH's are severely crippled by the delay, but they do like the idea of switching weapons for certain attacks. Also, can you expand on what you're thinking with "what if I could prevent my opponent from using certain key specials on me"?Is that the restriction to professions you mentioned?
...but what we can possibly do to make things even better post revamp...I don't want us all to get so wrapped up in the Revamp changes (when the come) that 6 months later we think "I wish we pushed for something like this while the devs were so focused on specifically Combat"...I want us to be able to strike while the iron is hottest... I sooo agree. You see too many posts that say "stop coming up with future ideas and concentrate on what's broken." Yes, we need to make sure that what's broken gets fixed, but we can do a lot more. Unfortunately, I think players (myself included) feel there is limited potential to expand the revamp beyond what's in those docs. By the time the revamp makes it to the TC, the devs won't be pushing to expand the options like this. In fact, I think that since the revamp is already down on paper, it makes players feel they have even less say. A good example, take dual wielding. Even RandonB said that yeah, it would be nice, but we need to focus on getting things fixed...that dual wielding wouldn't be implemented post GCW & Smuggler revamp. But why? To me dual wielding is a combat skill that should be balanced against everything else...but if it's not slated for after revamping the rest of the game, how canwe do that?
...Maybe I'm really just the Evil Twin of the Commando Correspondent from an Evil Parallel Universe here to drive you all Revamp Crazy... haha...No, it's TH flying all our community leaders to a private meeting to discuss our future then not telling us squat for months after the fact that makes us Revamp crazy.
Excellent questions...are you sure you aren't a reporter trying to get a scoop...I'll try to answer what I can, but I can't make promises...
Rockhurst wrote:
First, I love this "hypothetical" concept, but three questions:
1) There would be a clear trade-off for Commandos. You get a great special with big damage, but you can't use that special the same way a Pistoleer, Carbineer, or Rifleman could. However, I'm curious how applying this concept to BHs would work? BH's have Pistol, Carbine, and soon-to-be Heavy Weapon skills. What trade-off penalty wouldBH's suffer from usting Pistoleer, Carbine, or Commando specials since skills from those areas are notoutside of their area ofspecialization the way they would be for commandos.
In this hypothetical idea, it would be my belief that it would come down to strategy. It would all depend on what weapon type they'd want to use (stats playing a big part), their level of speed and accuracy on that weapon type, and how the special will be impacted via the weapon and associated mods. If I could impliment this idea, I would make it so that profession specific mods would always rate higher with the specials that came from that profession so that, as an example, a Rifleman would always be better with a rifleman granted special, but a commando or Bounty Hunter could still use a rifleman granted special with their weapons. Think about it this way...what if Targetting the Mind bar became the only way to kill a specific target something...andwhat if it was only the Health bar for another target...and then there were soem targets that you could take down any bar to kill it...you'd need specials that could target specific bars...but Commandos don't have that specific ability to target certain specific bars...but what if they could get that ability in a special taken from another Profession and then applied to their weapon of choice...How do I currently target the mind with my FT, or Health, or Action...More then that, what if I could prevent my opponent from using certain key specials on me, but exhausting a specific bar of theirs first? Having a special that could target certain HAM bars could become very strategic if used in the right circumstances you would think...When the public docs start coming out, keep an eye out for the updated HAM changes and how they relate to combat...
2) What does your magic 8-ball say about pre-revamp weapons? Would they be left untouched, or would the changes be retroactive for existing weapons? Is there a chance even the damage types (energy, blast, acid, etc.) would be changed?
That's really tough to answer...I would need to provide a good explaination for why the Devs would or would not touch pre-revamp weapons in relation to the Revamp changes. And, if not fully explained I could easily start a panic or created concerned anger in those who could be For or Against Pre-Revamp Weapon changes....So unfortunately, partly due to the NDA and due to the fear of not being able to answer clearly enough, I'll have to ask that you wait for the Revamp docs on that one...
3) What would encourage a player to switch weapons other than damage type? A player might want to switch from a blastweaponto acid, but otherwise, what would encourage a Commando to use anything but the FT? Would some skills only convert to specific weapons (i.e. Rifleman skills only apply to FT, Carbine skills apply to Acid Rifle, etc)?
Here is where the idea of being a 250 pt Commando come in as a good Example...If you knew you wanted to be a Commando, you'd hope you could rely on mainly Commando weapons...if you knew you wanted to be a 250 pt Rifleman, you'd probably want to keep your focus on Rifles...
Commandos would mainly be encouraged to switch weapons depending on the circumstance they were going into...If I needed a high powered weapon, but didn't worry about speed, I'd go with the FT...but if I needed a Fast weapon with better accuracy and speed, I might choose another weapon type...For example, if I wanted to best use a Pistoleer special, I might choose my LP to use it with rather then my FT because I know i'll have a better chance of hitting the target then I would with my FT...but if I wasn't worried about my accuracy, I'd go for the higher damage possibility with my FT...
It's hard to say what specials would cross to what weapons or if it would be so specifically restricted...I'd start with making the obvious...Melee specials restricted to Melee Weapons and Vice Versa for Ranged specials and weapons...Then I'd analyze which specials are either most prized, most considered weapon specific, or just to powerful to allow them to be used on all types of weapons....Last Ditch has been brought up as an example...It could become to powerful if allowed to be used on a Flame Thrower...And our Flame Specials would be way to powerful if used with a T21...So certain specials would have to remain weapon specific...But for the most part, the other, less specific specials would cross to any other weapon type that matched up ranged or melee...And I'd alter those specials to make them more strategic in my reason for using them (like status effects or specifically targetting certain HAM bars)...
Anyway...I want to remind people again (and I know I say this a lot...sorry), just because we are discussing all of this, it does not mean any of this is in the Revamp...I'm only continuing a discussion based on an idea that another player shared...It's an idea that I believe would work well with certain Revamp changes that are planned...it doesn't mean that this idea is already in the revamp (I get the strong feeling that people think that because I'm continuing with the discussion that it means it's definitely in the Revamp)...My hope with this discussion and other isthat people to be prepared to not only see the Revamp (when the docs come out)for what it will do to the current game, but what we can possibly do to make things even better post revamp...I don't want us all to get so wrapped up in the Revamp changes (when the come) that 6 months later we think "I wish we pushed for something like this while the devs were so focused on specifically Combat"...I want us to be able to strike while the iron is hottest...
I hope all that makes sense...And remember...for as many hints as you think I drop...I could also be dropping red herrings as well to keep you all busy...After the Revamp docs go public, I could easily be seen as 
or as 
depending on whether I'm playing nice or not...LOL...only time will tell...
...Maybe I'm really just the Evil Twin of the Commando Correspondent from an Evil Parallel Universe here to drive you all Revamp Crazy...
Message Edited by garvin on 10-06-2004 12:50 PM