Commando Archive
Thread: Commando Development Future...a potential compromise?
Meanwhile, the wrong solution, which might be a possibility given that everything is "intended" to flow through our weapons because we're "defined" by them, would be giving those weapons innate damage modifiers. Basically, when our weapons would be used with marksman specials...they would be like elite specials, but use them with elite specials? And wham, we got one heck of an overpowered situation. As I've said in the past, if our weapons should innately (with a marksman special) equal that of an elite special, we'll have at least 1.5 to 2x the power if we used that same weapon with elite specials. Although we'd gain tremendous damage with them, we would be VERY difficult to balance than we already are.
But...and I honestly have never thought of this till now...what about a compromise? A potential solution that might in fact be easier than adding specials, and remain exactly to our weapons "defining" us - WITH the balance intake.
My fellow commandos...have we ever thought of giving weapon specials, heavy weapon damage modifiers? Rather than the normal weapon modifiers, these would kick in only when a Heavy Weapon is equipped. However, the catch would be this: Such modifiers would -only- be on marksman specials, as we would fall into the same hole if all specials had this modifier just as we would if our weapons had them too.
Basically, rollshot and overcharge shot would be as if we had improved legshot and advanced critical shot. With my Plasma FT I can hit for 2350 with improved legshot before armour resists, why not allow me to do that with rollshot? Essentially, this is the -same- idea as specials...but with a twist.
Hence, a compromise. Our damage remains persistent regardless of template used. And just as we are "intended", with ranged templates we increase our "combo" mixing abilities while keeping the grinding and melee commando happy.
The only roadblock to this might be that, there would be a damage surge when you hit novice commando (would be as if you had improved legshot), but I wouldn't see this as a huge problem because the lower CL weapons would help prevent it from being overpowered at a lower level (its not as if we have CL 54 weapons at novice), and it would eventually smooth out at master level.
But essentially...we'd be truly defined by our weapons, have our damage preserved, be easier to balance, and ultimately achieve our role as that of a damage dealer.
What do you guys think?
**Edited for some syntax corrections, Im tired...so, tough
**Message Edited by StarNick on 10-02-2005 11:24 PM
Wont work.
I say this because marksman specials are what? general ranged shot and overcharge shot. (Roll shot/dive shot/upshot arent really of much use as they limit your mobility in this quake-around combat enviroment).
General ranged shot doing as much damage as say the elite prof novice box shot (akalegshot instead of improved legshot) would make commando+other ranged proff into a monster spewing too much damage too quickly. imagine proton rifle with sniper shot 2followed by a couple of high damage ranged shots/rollshots/whatever. nerf bat cometh.
Why not leave our weapons as LOW CL damagestats but merely pump theelemental damage to very high levels and give commando a special that multiplies the ELEMENTAL damage on weapons instead of the 'normal' damage?
Think about it.
Elemental damage bypasses some defensive mods like block and dodge and others. It is not mitigated by ranged/melee defenses, only byarmorresists. Translation: we will do more damage consistently at medium-short range than any other ranged proffession.
And best of all, its only our weapon stats that need be adjusted and a special added at master box. I dont have on hand the stats of our weapons now but consider:
Launcher pistol -kinetic damage 100-200 damage with 400 blast damage (or elemental 'kinetic' damage if you will).
Particle Cannon - 200-300 damage with 600 energy elemental damage and an effect (weaken?)
Acid Launcher - 200 to 300 damage with 200 acid elemental damage and basic armor break effect
Heavy Lightning Cannon - 100 to 400 damage with 400 electricity elemental damage and effect: stun
Rocket Launcher - 100 to 500 damage (wide range) with 200 heat elemental and KD effect.
Flamethrower - 300 to 500 damage with 500 heat elemental damage NO EFFECT (means NO DOT)
Acid Rifle - 300 to 500 damage with 400 acid elemental damage effect: 100% stick on target -15% to all regens for 1 minute. (think noxious acid fumes in your face).
Plasma Flamethrower - 600 to 900 damage (tight damage range) with 100 heat elemental damage (low elemental on purpose) with effect: 300 per tick fire dot (stick 100% of times).
Proton Rifle: As it is now but no AOE and hopefully Craftable darnit.
Now consider: Any master rifles or master pistol or mbh or mcarbineer pickign up one or2 lines of commando (dabbling)will find himself using low dps weapons which means their special attacks do not raise the damage as much as using a non-commando cert weapon.
Nor will it be as accurate OR as fast because commando has itsaccuracy and speed mods spread out throught THREE trees not TWO like all other ranged proffs have it (aka rifles 4004 =95% as fast and accurate as mrifles) .
So say a launcher pistol being used by a commando 0440+master pistoleer really uses only speed and accuracy mods from 0440 commando not from master pistols.
The LP damage being so low will mean that even if that mpistoleer had dabbling in say legshot (high damage multiplier special) he would be screwing himself in damage because hedbe MUCH better off using a fwg5 or some othernon-cert pistol using hislegshot than using thelauncher pistol.
OTH the master commando with the launcher pistol will match the master pistoleer with his pistoleer-cert pistol in damage using the master commando +elemental damage modifier attack.Why?
Say Mpistoleer with FWG5 of 900 max damage using a damage special Vs Commando using his 300 max damage launcher pistol with the commando + elemental damage special.
Mpistoleer uses Legshot (forgive me its the only high damage special im most familar with): 1200 damage
Mcommando uses legshot with LPistol: 900 damage (500 basic damage + 400 elemental).
Mcommando uses ElementalShot with Lpistol : 1200 damage (300 basic damage + 900 elemental damage)
Of course it may SEEM the same but consider that in general, the commando using the elemental damage shot will have higher consistent damage than the pistoleer. Not always, but almost always. For the elemental damage will bypass ranged/melee defenses.. so commandos in fact would have the ability to hit harder against most targets with high defenses. Targets with high armor rating however, are another matter.. for that I believe riflemen and carbineer will be better at it with their base damage multiplier specials... which commando CAN dabble in to acquire and use with the PROTON RIFLE or non-cert non-elemental damage weapons.
Basing our damage output in elemental damage also prevents other proffessions from using our guns to get uber...and also to prevent US from using THEIR damage specials with OUR elemental guns to be uber. Its a beautiful balance.
Add the effects and dots of the weapons and commando becomes a dang dangerous foe in combat with a ROLE and the TOYS to back that role up.
Anyways, I honestly think specials would be a whole lot easier to balance (anything through our weapons I feel is potential for disaster). Your idea is a good one tac...but are we garuanteed a better damage level than we already have (or want? With some of those weapons we'd be matching pistoleer's and carbineer's damage outputs). It may not be totally safe to rely heavily on our elemental not being resisted, and thats how we get our damage...as we could always fall into the trap we did pre-Cu with the 100% Acid/Heat resists. It's a long shot considering 100% resists are no more, but nevertheless uncertain. Plus...I'd say unless if we got to test how well having large amounts of elemental damage function with lower damage ranges (or current ones for that matter)...it's a lot of faith for a system that may bring us to square one (dev wise).
Now...if elemental was modified with the specials' modifier...there probably would be no question, save for the dev-related one...
However, it seems that the devs are steadfast on the idea of our damage coming from our weapons. This is the only surefire way that I can think of that could be balancing, best of both worlds, and *easy enough* to implement. I stress easy, as your proposal could in fact work...but it would require a major overhaul and individual attention to weapons...and probably is time that the development team isn't considering investing in the profession.
Message Edited by StarNick on 10-03-2005 12:07 AM
"However, it seems that the devs are steadfast on the idea of our damage coming from our weapons. This is the only surefire way that I can think of that could be balancing, best of both worlds, and *easy enough* to implement."
Message Edited by tacwraith on 10-03-2005 12:15 AM
gee whatever gave you that idea *smartass grin*
Heh yeah...was going to edit, but decided to save it for this post. At this point of time, I really want to look at the easiest and most efficient ways concievable given the technical hardships that have come with our current set up with built in states (Ahem...AoE).
Now, you're right with switching weapons...and is a point I didn't consider. But also consider this...if one weapon aspect, AoE, has been this tricky and intermittent, do you really want all of our weapons to go under the knife and have all of their built-in abilities and damage numbers overhauled?
Now, the beauty of having an outside source that relies directly and solely on our weapons (hence flows through them) such as modifiers built into specials would be the fact that our weapons themselves, would NOT have to really be changed save for some minor improvements to a few of our single target weapons and the fixing of AoE (not a weapon revamp of sorts).
So...the devs get all of our damage flowing through one variable (rather than us having two variables like a normal profession...a damage special that can also affect other specials. This way, our weapons would function as they do now, being the one that affects specials), and we get our damage without getting more commando game mechanics messed up.
Message Edited by StarNick on 10-03-2005 12:18 AM
I think that making the marksman specials work in a 'special' way when being used by commando weapons is much much harder than simply increasing or reducing existing mods in a weapon and changing the effect they give out.
And my last post before going to bed...
I remember from somewhere, that adding in specials or creating new weapons are much, much harder than tweaking or adding in numbers. Thats the major gut feeling Ive had with "Can we get specials?", because supposedly...they're just damned hard to implement. I don't think a complete overhaul of weapons could be possible given our...current prority of things considered.
With the right tweaks in the right places, and a small addition in the precise spot...and our profession can go a very long way. We don't need a complete re-working of our concept (although Im not a fan of support...how about Damage Dealing Support? Where we technically have two roles...a Damage Dealer first, then Support in the form of combos - using our weapons to combine with other specials to produce better abilities. This is our ideal from the CU). A lot of small stuff that were overlooked or broke are contributing to our current situation, with some of those fixed...we may very well become ungimped.
That is...if we can get the devs to fix them.
Message Edited by tacwraith on 10-03-2005 12:47 AM
I had the same idea earlier tac.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=commando&message.id=106520
I dont really want us to do more damage with marksman specials than with elite ones or equal, i want us to be tied to other proffesions.
However I want us to boost another proffesion not kinda be there like we are now.
Commando weapons should be 1.5* Stronger than a regular weapon of the same level (mabey slower but 1.5* stonger atleast.)
A nuking template of Commando+Rifleman+Carbine should be able to run equal in damage dealing as the healing potential of a full healer (Doc/CM on one person) or atleast come very close.
Right now if I was not a die hard commando I could be doing so much more damage to all armor types in a Melee or bounty hunter or any other profession set for longer amounts of time (since there weapons do more damage with lower sac)
Commando should do Incredible damage for the short amount of time as our action lasts then nice damage while using marksman specials and then incredible again once action regens and can use the Elite Specials.
I belive I repeat my self and ramble a few times in this post so I appologise
It's not bad. I think it needs a small amount of refinement, but as first drafts of ideas go, this isn't bad at all.
I like this for another reason. This ties in well with the idea that Master Marksman could be a sort of "prerequisite" to commando. I think we can see that with Ranger losing master scout, the idea of holding out for greater benefit due to a huge skill point sink has gone by the wayside. However- if you were to put in place a sytem such as this, the master marksman/ master commando would have 3 potentially extremely damaging specials at their disposal in the form of quickdraw, rapid fire, and of course "lethal shot", which is currently less than lethal in anyone's hands.
I also like what Tacwraith is saying about minimum damage rates, although I would hesitate to championimplementing anything which wouldallow even heavy weapons to exceed 800 min damage after a powerup. I also think the numbers on that one could use some tweeks. The basic flame thrower for example is way too good.
I don't see a reason this couldn't work though. The basic marksman specials really have no additional utility beyond doing damage, so it isn't as though this could replace the value of a snare or root, or KD.
If something more like Tacwraith's suggestion were to be used, there would need to be some serious balance testing done to determine proper levels of elemental resistance. I definately don't want our DPS increasetied solely to expansion weapons, so if they are planning on raising dps, they should look to either change the crafting values ( in which case, why not entertain an idea like Tac's) or change the profession to make up the deficeit, adding something like your idea Starnick, or Commando only specials.
birdinga wrote:
What if they removed the state and AoE effects from our weapons and instead gave commandos the ability to give themselves short term buffs that would allow us to make any special AoE or state inducing? This could be pretty hard to put into the game but i think it would make commando a little more effective. It is also somewhat similar towhat Squad Leaders are getting in their revamp.
Instead of having to switch weapons to get different states and being hampered by AoE attacks in undesirable situations, we could take a combat turn and switch on the desired buff. You could turn on kd, stun, blind, AoE,or maybe evena dmg buff. No need to switch weapons for the different effects, just use a combat turn and apply a buff. A well trained, battle hardened commando should be able to kd, stun, or blindhis target regardless of what weapon he is using.
A change like this would really take the focus of commando off of our weapons and put it on our skills. Right now commando is all about weapons, and our weapons are somewhat lacking. This would be a huge change and take a lot of work to balance out but it could be done. This just came to me the other day and isnt really fully fleshed out but what do you all think about the basic idea?
Message Edited by Tyyylowyspetily on 10-03-2005 12:02 PM
What would a Rifleman or Jedi be without Specials. Nothing but some fancy mods. Specials define a profession. Our Weapons should not define us.
Specials are the only way to go. we need Ranged and Melee so we can effectively be the power-up profession. We should deal great Damage with these Specials as when we are added to a template we are meant to add greatly to it's power. Thus anyone who wants to do more Damage should want Commando. This effectively makes everyone better.
Nukers will be able to constantly unleash massive damage.
Mezzers will be able to apply states as well as do damage.
Tanks will have the ability to go decent Damage as well.
By making Commando the Jack of all Trades everyone will become better in some way. However if you want a pure Tank, Mezzer, Commando doesn't help. Commando will effectively help everyon'es damage by providing them Ranged and Melee Damage Specials. That is my vision.
You could make a very balanced Template that can fufill several roles. Or you could make an extreme Nuker, like with Rifleman Commando.
You see with Specials and another Profession we could truley make our beloved PFT, LBC, Proton Rifle, weapons to be feared.
Comamndos should be to effectively use any Weapon. That is now possible due to CL Certs rather then Skill. We have Marksman letting us using all manner of pistols, carbines, and rifles. Then we have Brawler letting us use all manner of Melee weapons from our fists, a knife, a sword, a lance. A Commando should be able to pick up any weapon and at least be threat with it.
A Commando/TKM should be able to fire all the big weapons, then when need be pummel the heck out of things with their fists.
A Commando/Rifleman should be able to reach out and touch someone, with such firepower anyone who dares charge at them from long range is a dead man.
A Commando/Carbineer should be ultimate in Medium Range combat. Since all their weapons are basically Medium Range. Probably the best support template you could imagine. Plus they deal in Crowd Control, have Moderate Defense, and worthy Damage.
Basically BKS.
Blow the shat out of stuff.
Kick the shat out of stuff.
Shoot the shat out of stuff.
I can go on and on but this is how I want see Commando. Don't you? Maybe that's the problem we don't agree or set our minds on one common thing. see all want Commando fixed in different ways. We need to dream and talk with one another and decide what we want Commando to be. But it has to be something we can all agree with.
I know I sound like a Jerkarse always pushing my Comamndo Dream around, but I think not only we would all find it acceptable to our ways of play, if not better, it could be balanced as well.