Commando Archive
Thread: CU: Really good for commando?
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WinstonX
Fri Mar 18, 2005 6:34 pm
#1
As happy as I am with fewer prereqs for commando, I find the general changes somewhat troubling. Instead of making our profession match our prereqs, they're making our prereqs match our profession AS IT IS. Commando has such strong prereqs b/c it's supposed to be a badass profession. While we don't know what changes are specifically going to happen as far as our skills and weapons, the fact that they're freeing up sp and making it easier to get commando says to me that we're not going to get much in the way of enhancing our combat effectiveness. I put a lengthier post in the new CU thread, but in general the changes seem to me motivated out of laziness. The skill point system is on the verge of annihilation. Every extra bit of knowledge about the CU we get, and every new update we get, the skill point system is further de-emphasized. Politician was taken out of it, ID is being reduced to one SP per box, and the new CU notes indicated a further emphasis on levelling, in that our now SINGLE hitpoint bar is health, which gets bigger primarily from LEVELLING our combat profession. Furthermore, stat migration is being altogether removed. YOu might say, well ID and POL have nearly no practical productive application, so they shouldn't cost much SP. But whose fault is that? If non-combat professions had some value in terms of profitability and content, they WOULD be worth SP. My point is that the system would be better served by fixing the system as it stands rather than changing the system. The new system is simpler, "streamlined," and more accessible to newer (dumber?) players. All of the nuances of the innovative SWG professions/skill point and combat systems are being removed in the name of making way for "fast-paced" combat. It seems to me they're making way for "combat as it is in every other game" because working with the existing system is simply too challenging.
garvin
Fri Mar 18, 2005 6:49 pm
#2
WinstonX wrote:
As happy as I am with fewer prereqs for commando, I find the general changes somewhat troubling. Instead of making our profession match our prereqs, they're making our prereqs match our profession AS IT IS.
How do you know that?The devs have not presented the new Profession Specifics docs. Both Starnick and I have hinted that we are keeping our high level of damage AS WELL AS getting more defenses, more accuracy, more speed, etc...and we've hinted at more specials being available to us as well as our pre-reqs making a BIG difference to us in the future (the reduction is not what we meant).
Commando has such strong prereqs b/c it's supposed to be a badass profession.
That's what we thought...But actually the devs never saw it like that...They only looked at professions (still do) as their cost from novice to master (like novice commando to master commando)...and thinking that way, all professions cost the same amount...so in the past, we were balanced as such. That's why we've always had a tough time getting more defenses and such and why the devs kept saying "Commandos are balanced as intended"...NOW our pre-reqs will MATCH our abilities and they will leave even more dabbling room for us to fill the voids we might still have left post-CU.
StarNick
Fri Mar 18, 2005 6:52 pm
#3
As happy as I am with fewer prereqs for commando, I find the general changes somewhat troubling. Instead of making our profession match our prereqs, they're making our prereqs match our profession AS IT IS.
Well, as our profession is suppoused to be...is a heavy damage dealer...pure offense. Thats basically what the CU will be doing for us....actually living up to our role.
Commando has such strong prereqs b/c it's supposed to be a badass profession.
As I mentioned (and garvin too) before...our pre-reqs may be changing, but the substance of our profession will not be nerfed or reduced in power. Quite the contrary, as our weapons actually will be getting fixed. Thats huge, especially with upcoming documentation you all will be seeing (hopefully) shortly. Please remember...this is a whole new other system, what may be strong/weak in this system...does not necessarily apply in the CU.
While we don't know what changes are specifically going to happen as far as our skills and weapons, the fact that they're freeing up sp and making it easier to get commando says to me that we're not going to get much in the way of enhancing our combat effectiveness.
Again, quite the contrary. Our weapons will define us, they will enhance our profession. They reworked the skill-point system for balance, as well as (in my opinion) some flexibility in "shopping" for skills. I have to admit, they somewhat messed up with the brawlers (no generic support tree...), but for ranged skills, we'll be able to pick up skills and professions we didn't think of before...
I put a lengthier post in the new CU thread, but in general the changes seem to me motivated out of laziness. The skill point system is on the verge of annihilation. Every extra bit of knowledge about the CU we get, and every new update we get, the skill point system is further de-emphasized. Politician was taken out of it, ID is being reduced to one SP per box, and the new CU notes indicated a further emphasis on levelling, in that our now SINGLE hitpoint bar is health, which gets bigger primarily from LEVELLING our combat profession.
Whats wrong with a growing health bar as you gain skills in your combat profession? Doesn't that show your toughness, your experience, etc? I disagree that the skill point system is on the verge of annihilation. This is a whole different system we'll be experiencing here. It doesn't make sense in the current system, but it does (somewhat aside from the brawler pre-reqs) make sense in the CU system. Folks, theres more information coming...which Im pretty sure will be the profession role documents (or something similar)...
Furthermore, stat migration is being altogether removed. YOu might say, well ID and POL have nearly no practical productive application, so they shouldn't cost much SP. But whose fault is that? If non-combat professions had some value in terms of profitability and content, they WOULD be worth SP. My point is that the system would be better served by fixing the system as it stands rather than changing the system. The new system is simpler, "streamlined," and more accessible to newer (dumber?) players. All of the nuances of the innovative SWG professions/skill point and combat systems are being removed in the name of making way for "fast-paced" combat. It seems to me they're making way for "combat as it is in every other game" because working with the existing system is simply too challenging.
I have a friend that would agree with you, in regard to fixing the current system than changing it. It's too late now...and in my opinion, the new system may in fact be better. We WONT know until testing which is really unfortunate -- and as I said in the CU thread, RISKY on the devs' part. Don't make judgements yet, until all the information comes out...and we actually have feedback from the Alpha testers. My major criticisim aside from the brawler pre-reqs, on this document is the buff percentage...they shouldn't have given out a number without any testing on it...
Also, accessibility does not necessarily mean they're dumbing it down. You should have seen the previous HAM proposal the devs had...if you want to even talk about complexity. I for one really am looking forward to the HAM changes, and the system is fairly simple in some measures...but it hasn't been dumbed down per se.
WinstonX
Fri Mar 18, 2005 6:53 pm
#4
pwned =P. But I stick by general statements regarding levelling vs. skill point/professions system..
StarNick
Fri Mar 18, 2005 6:57 pm
#5
Drat I knew I forgot something.
Atm we grind our professions...we lvl our professions. That most likely won't change. Its a system in most MMO's anyways and all RPGs I may add...
However....BIG however. We'll still be using experience points (thru lvling of course!), but that doesn't mean we won't be having quests which will help us level through a profession. Remember the HoC chat? Yeah well, today Tiggs updated TC patch notes with a few new quests today...
It looks like we'll be seeing a whole lot new content...
Btw, we don't even know if it'll be harder to grind a profession. Hell, for all we bloody know...that'll justremain the same! :-p (irony?)
Edit: Doh! Change does not equal remain!
Message Edited by StarNick on 03-18-2005 08:58 PM
WolfGuy
Fri Mar 18, 2005 8:45 pm
#6
I am worried that instead of fixing Commando (and BH) they will just make it cheaper.
That would still leave us with next-to-useless grenades, consumables that are too expensive to use, and a whole tree dedicated to a weapon that just plain sucks bag. That is the HAR. I love my Flamethrowers, just to clear up any confusion.
I know I am being pesimistic but I am tired of waiting, and this big new load of info contains no real big surprises other than the profession pre-reqs. THAT I did not see coming.
That would still leave us with next-to-useless grenades, consumables that are too expensive to use, and a whole tree dedicated to a weapon that just plain sucks bag. That is the HAR. I love my Flamethrowers, just to clear up any confusion.
I know I am being pesimistic but I am tired of waiting, and this big new load of info contains no real big surprises other than the profession pre-reqs. THAT I did not see coming.
StarNick
Fri Mar 18, 2005 8:49 pm
#7
That would still leave us with next-to-useless grenades, consumables that are too expensive to use, and a whole tree dedicated to a weapon that just plain sucks bag. That is the HAR. I love my Flamethrowers, just to clear up any confusion.
The problem:
These aren't in the documents....but we know are coming in the CU via dev responses. Grenades will be viable...our consumeables too...they'll be the working horses of our profession, all of our weapons. Post-CU, -our- weapons define us...if they're broken, even slightly, we remain broken post-CU. The current commando weapon systems will be (in my opinion) vastly different from the CU version.
Plus, this document is really an overview on pre-reqs, general mechanics, and HAM/weapon ques. Theres more coming...
shotgunjoe
Fri Mar 18, 2005 9:20 pm
#8
I noticed that the unarmed tree is still going to be a pre-req.Does that mean commandos will actually have a few unarmed specials as well?
I also have been patiently watching the CU tidbits as they creep in and was curious,They have shown pics on new weapons for all the melee,and basic ranged classes.Where is the heavy weapon upgrades,are we not getting any kind of heavy assualt rifle or will we be using the same weapon types with the exception of new damage types,specials and actually functioning?
I know the correspondents have to keep a tight-lip about what they do know,but I was wondering if you guys can say that the dev's havent forgot about commandos and that we are getting a wider variety like everyone else.
C'mon rabble correspondents,throw us a bone!
one more question,if we are getting more skill points to play with,but they have said they are removing defense stacking?So how excactly does that work out in our favor if I cant stack defensesthen what would be the point of investing in pistoleer or fencer?Maybe i am missing something.....
Message Edited by shotgunjoe on 03-18-2005 11:26 PM
garvin
Fri Mar 18, 2005 9:43 pm
#9
shotgunjoe wrote:
I noticed that the unarmed tree is still going to be a pre-req.Does that mean commandos will actually have a few unarmed specials as well?
Why stop there?
I also have been patiently watching the CU tidbits as they creep in and was curious,They have shown pics on new weapons for all the melee,and basic ranged classes.Where is the heavy weapon upgrades,are we not getting any kind of heavy assualt rifle or will we be using the same weapon types with the exception of new damage types,specials and actually functioning?
One or more of those weapons we've seen COULD be a heavy assult rifle for all we know...plus...ALL weapons are getting tweaked via the CU...this COULD mean we could see some HAR improvements...Also, as reported previously (can't remember if it was Starnick or me) but our grenades have been include a bit more in the CU then previous planned in the last couple of months...we don't know details currently, but will when testing starts.
I know the correspondents have to keep a tight-lip about what they do know,but I was wondering if you guys can say that the dev's havent forgot about commandos and that we are getting a wider variety like everyone else.
We are getting a wider variety of everything...we are getting different weapons...we are getting access to different abilities...and with less pre-reqs, we have a wider range of things we can dabble...
C'mon rabble correspondents,throw us a bone!
One thing you have to remember is that, for the most part, we only know what's in the docs...so really, you've now seen about a 3rd of what we know...we don't know what the weapon damage levels will be like, or how the armor will actually work in batte, or the damage numbers of our specials...those things are all being kept quiet until testing starts...I predict that next week you all WILL KNOW everything we know if not most of it...
one more question,if we are getting more skill points to play with,but they have said they are removing defense stacking?So how excactly does that work out in our favor if I cant stack defensesthen what would be the point of investing in pistoleer or fencer?Maybe i am missing something.....
Stacking will work differently...It's hard to explain, but I'm hoping the very next info they spill includes specifics on this...let's just say that there will be benefits of dabbling more so then currently...currently we often dabble for defenses, weapons and abilities that work with those weapons...in the post-CU game we'll dabble for a lot more reasons then that...but at the same time, defense stacker templates will be gone...the way things are being planned out, you'll have to make a lot of strategic choices (do I go this route and be weak here, or do I go this route and leave a hole over there)...Starnick or I willfill in more blanks as more info comes out next week...
shotgunjoe
Fri Mar 18, 2005 10:05 pm
#10
Thanks Garvin,your the man for a reblet(sorry,its a Valcyn thing :smileywink
The only thing im still hazy on,as everyone else it seems is the stacking thing,becuase currently thats how stacking is right now.You stack and design your template around a certian proffesions offensive power,and then design the rest around another proffs defensive power.Currently most of the classes fit into this equation,good offense = bad defense or vice versa.Jedi only being the exception to this and is really the big advantage of them.
So i am also looking forward the explanations of how this is going to work.
Tlk
Fri Mar 18, 2005 10:35 pm
#11
Jedi have the same issue. Sure the master saber jedi have decent defense and good dmg, but the non master saber jedi have neither great dmg nor great defenses. Jedi is all about choice and sacrifice. That may be decent trees to look into to see how some of this stacking in the future may work. I personally don't like anything I read except for a commando/squadleader double mastery now possible. I should of known this CURB was not a good thing, at least it doesn't appeargood to me, nothing surprised me today, except the decrease in skill points. I suspect nothing else will surprise me in the future either.
Really, why couldn't they just fix the game instead of writing an EQ2 clone set in the SWG universe?
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