Commando Archive

Okay, I've been wanting to do Commando since beta and finally got to it. I've been playing the profession now for about a month, and have come to the conclusion (I'm sure those of you who have been doing Commando a while will say "duh?") that there is a serious design flaw in the combat balancing of the various Commando weapons.

My understanding is that Commando, as originally conceived, was to be a "heavy weapons expert" for taking out armored targets (turrets & AT-ST's) whereas Bounty Hunter was to be the ultimate PvP machine. So following that line of thinking, Commando should be more effective at doing damage to armored targets than any other profession in the game right?

Has anybody compared the damage per second on say a Power Hammer or T21 rifle to what the Commando has?

The evil secret of Commando is that the weapons you have good specials with (Flamethrower & Heavy Acid Rifle) ARE NOT ARMOR PIERCING so now that they have nerfed the fire DOT these weapons are practically worthless against armored targets. That leaves 2 weapons in the Commando armory that do blast damage. Launcher Pistols which Commandos get NO specials for and Rocket Launchers which Commandos get no specials for AND are slower than Christmas.

What does that mean?

It means that when I and my buddies go out to play I the Commando look like an idiot because the Rifleman, Swordsman, and Pikeman all lay waste to an AT-ST while I plink at it. Seriously, we took out 3 AT-ST's the other day and the Rifleman was averaging 3X the xp from the kill as me no matter which weapon I used. So what the heck is the purpose of being a Commando?

IMHO, here's what needs to happen:

Launcher pistol is fine. Leave it like it is.
Heavy Acid Rifle should be dropped as a tree and just use rifle specials (so it would be much like the Launcher Pistol).
Flamethrower should have it's damage REDUCED considerably but it's DOT upped. Think it terms of 500 - 1000 max and that's the full DOT too. Think about it, all a flamethrower does is set people on fire. So that should be the principle effect, not the initial damage.
The true heavy weapons (rocket launcher, beam cannon, etc) should all have their damages increased DRAMATICALLY. It is totally rediculous that a man with a rifle should be able to do more damage in 10 seconds to an AT-ST as a man with a rocket launcher. Because other weapons have specials that increase damage, the heavy weapons either need specials as well OR they need to do enough damage such that they are better than other weapons with specials. If my rocket launchers would do 10K-25K of blast damage a hit, then maybe I would really be the armor-destructo guy.

Commence to critique

Flamethrower (might as well start with everybody's favorite)

In reality, people use flamethrowers for 3 reasons. First of all, it's VERY easy to hit a target with it - no great aim required. Secondly, you can engage multiple targets very effectively - just squeeze the trigger and turn from side to side. Finally, setting people on fire is a DARNED GOOD way to kill them because while the weapon may not kill them instantly the fire just keeps on killing. The detraction of a flamethrower is that a) the range is VERY SHORT and b) it's virtually USELESS against a hardened/armored target. So basically, a flamethrower is intended to be used to engage a large number of close range (melee) soft targets. It is the IDEAL weapon if you get rushed by 8 mobs at once or even rushed by a TKA, but not really suitable for, say, attacking an AT-ST or even a player in full comp armor.

How does this match up to the flamethrower as implemented in the game? Not very well I'm afraid. Flamethrowers in the game are EXTREMELY inaccurate. How could you possibly miss with a flamethower from short range? But I do. Constantly. The cone attacks do give multi-target capability. But the cone is WAY too narrow. Unless all the targets are right beside each other you're just not going to get more than one. And for point three? Don't even get me started. The initial damage is EGGREGIOUSLY high for what a flamethrower is and the newly nerfed DOT damage is just lame.

Here's how you fix it:

1. Change the range modifiers to better reflect the realities of the weapon. Something like 5m:+80, 16m:+100, 32m:-80 and have a maximum range of 32m if that's possible.
2. Widen the cone attacks considerably, to something on the order of 90 - 135 degrees.
3. Reduce the initial damage of the weapon to something like 500 - 1000 pts with master specials (instead of the current 12K).
4. Make the DOT 100% of the initial damage. If you hit with a 750pt burn, that burn should continue to do 750pts until extenguished.
5. Finally, reduce the speed on the specials. Currently the flamethrower can get down into the 3's for non-special fire and that's good, but when you use a special the speed becomes at least 3X slower. This is just too harsh.

Now, many of you will mutiny on me here, since this basically results in a considerable reduction in the flamethrower's effectiveness for what we've been using it for (though for some things it would become much more usefull). But remember, I'm suggesting this as part of a larger rebalance that will make up for what you're loosing here so don't lynch me yet. Wait and see how it all fits together.

"In fact, taking it to it's logical extreme, it would seem fair to do a seperate "basic" heavy weapon for each of the categories of combat that are prerequisite for Commando. Launcher Pistol for those who favor pistols, Heavy Acid Rifle for those who favor rifles, then some kind of heavy carbine (a minigun maybe!!!!!! - that would be INCREDIBLE) and some kind of unarmed weapon (no clue there - suggests for a heavy unarmed weapon please?) for those who want to complement Commando with either Carbineer or TKA."

Personally, I think this is what would be the best point to focus on. All of the heavy weapons are situational for the most part - and costly. By perhaps finding a way to get specials for all of these into the commando profession (specials that are good in their own right, but are different in effect and purpose when compared with the other elite professions.) This would solve the problem of commando skills not reflecting prerequisites, and would give special advantages to thecommando combat specialist who choose to pair up rifleman, carbineer, or pistoleer with commando.

To top all that off, we'd finally have a set of standard weapons that work well, and we could easily adapt to changing situations like a commando should be able to.

Rocket Launcher

Okay, here's where we start to make up for it. The rocket launcher is a weapon designed for one and only one purpose - the destruction of armored targets (as opposed to a rocket-propelled grenade, which is primarily an anti-personnel weapon). As the only weapon in the game purpose-built for this one purpose, and as hands down THE MOST EXPENSIVE WEAPON IN THE GAME TO USE, this weapon should be without peer for its intended purpose. Rocket launchers in reality are used for 2 reasons. First and foremost, they deliver on target damage on a scale unequaled by anything else short of actual artilary. Second, they are highly accurate against large stationary targets even at great range. Conversely, it is almost impossible to hit a moving target with a rocket launcher unless the user is VERY skilled and great care must be taken as the blast radius is large enough to kill the person firing the weapon as well if the target is too close.

As with the flamethrower, the in-game implementation of the rocket launcher isn't remotely close to the actuality of the weapon. As we all know, there are tons of other weapons and professions that do just as much damage as the rocket launcher to armored targets (because they're faster and have specials bonuses). And again, the accuracy is pitiful, even against a sleeping gronda and especially at range. There is no area damage AT ALL, even though the grenades used to construct them DO have damage areas. In other words, total failure to recreate the "rocket launcher" experience!

But on this weapon, I really do feel bad for the devs. Because the balance point here is almost impossible to strike. If they make the weapon as powerful as it should be against hardened targets, it GROSSLY unbalances PvP against other players. And the inverse (which is what we have) basically makes the weapon useless. So how do you fix it?

Here's how:
1) Increase the damage. Not a little. A bunch. A whole bunch. A freakin huge bunch. I'm talking about master Commando damage on the order of 15K-25K per hit to hardened targets. Do this by adding specials to the rocket launcher (see below).
2) Change the range mods to favor max range. Something like 5m:-80, 32m:-50, 64m:+80
3) Increase the to-hit penalty for moving targets to a point where a running target is essentially impossible for a n.Commando to hit (but a slow-moving AT-ST would still be doable though tough/lots of misses).
4) Put a large damage area (20m or so) on the warhead that does maybe 5% collateral kinetic damage AP1 (so if you hit for 20K everything in the area would take 500pts kinetic AP1).
5) Add a skill tree for rocket launcher (instead of HAR - see above) that gradually improves the damage of the rocket laucher up to the maximums mentioned above AND the chance to hit a moving target (such that he/she becomes pretty effective against then AT-ST though even a m.Commando should still only have a very small chance of success against a running target).

Now this is a very fine line I'm walking here. The key to the balance is the penalties associated with moving targets. This is the magic bullet that keeps rocket launchers from taking over as the uber-PvP weapon. Any skilled PvP opponent simply learns to keep moving and all massive damage of the rocket laucher is for naught. BUT against slow or stationary targets (like the Commando is intended for) this weapon becomes DEATH. So whatcha think? That make up a bit for the flamethrower change?

Amazing Casey you really thought this through good job i agree with you 100% make this class useful again!!

Thanks Eppyon_MM.

Heavy Particle Beam Cannon / Heavy Acid Beam / Lightening Beam Cannon

Okay, I'm grouping these three together b/c they are all logically similar. These three weapons, in my mind, represent a slightly different situation than the rocket launcher. The big difference is that these weapons seem to be primarily designed to counter creature or player armor with specific vulnerabilities. Logically speaking, since like the rocket launcher they are limited ammo aka very expensive to use they should do massive damage for anything with that vulnerability. Like the rocket launcher, they also stand to unbalance PvP if they really did the type of damage they should. The other big difference is that there is no logical reason why these weapons should necessarily be slow or inaccurate.

That leaves me a little confused about why these weapons exist. Since they represent an entire tree in the Commando line, they should do something valuable but as they are currently implemented I don't really know what that is. Sure, I could use them to attack other players, but the combination of inaccuracy and low damage (as with rocket launcher, high base damage but no specials so in effect lower damage than other weapons). So the only true reason I've seen for them is going after mobs with specific vulnerabilities. Sadly, in every specific circumstance I can think of, however, these are inferior to other weapons in other classes. Still, the ability to be able to adapt damage types to specific situations on the fly is an advantage for Commandos that seems worth having.

So the recommendation here would basically be leave them the way they are and maybe add one more for the fourth box in the tree. Let's see, we've got energy, acid, and electricity here and then heat and blast from the weapons above. That leaves cold and stun by my count. I don't see Stun as being appropriate since that would be very unbalancing to PvP so cold is the logical choice. Why not add a "freeze ray" of some sort and bump the LBC up to the fourth slot? Then Commandos have a true heavy weapon choice for EVERY type of damage except stun (just seems much more polished that way).

Oooh. Missed one damage type above. Kinetic!!

Hmmm. Would a limited-shot kinetic weapon be appropriate? What would apply there?

GOT IT!

Electromagnetic rail gun. Throws a slug so kinetic damage. High energy requirements so limited shot is logically viable. And that one could drop right into the 4th box above the LBC.

Hmmmmmmmmm. I think I like that idea almost as much as having a minigun that uses carbine specials in n.Commando.

The Imperial Heavy Repeater shoots bullets, so that could act as a kinetic weapon; although, I'm not sure why you'd want a weapon that does kinetic damage, as it's probably the single-most resisted type in the game.

The idea was to have a heavy weapon for each of the types of damage. That way you always have the right tool for the job no matter what the job is.

Hi Krenadel!

Let me explain why I think Launcher Pistol and Heavy Acid Rifle should just be standard pistols and rifles without specials.

These two weapons, to me, are BARELY heavy weapons in the sense of what a Commando is for. I see them as primarily being entry level weapons that a Commando would use to get some heavy weapons xp until they have sufficient skill to use the REAL heavy weapons. It also gives "dabblers" a reason to take Novice Commando that has some reward without encroaching too far into the Commando's role.

But let me be clear. I don't see any reason why any skilled Commando would EVER want to use these two weapons under this scheme. I'm not saying you need to spend your points somewhere else too. If your intent is to be a Commando then the rewards for using the heavier weapons should FAR outweigh the benefits that other classes get from using the Novice Commando weapons.

For instance, if a Smuggler wanted to be more effective against hardened targets he/she might take Novice Commando to gain the launcher pistol cert, thereby getting the ability to do blast damage with his/her better specials (Low Blow / Last Ditch). This is a suitable reward for the skill point investment. HOWEVER - a skilled Commando using properly balanced heavy weapons like the rocket launcher should still me MUCH more effective against this sort of target, so if Commando is what you're after (instead of a more rounded, multi-purpose role) then you would instead invest your skill points in advancing Commando and gaining it's higher-up advantages.

That said, posting the earlier bit has done wonders for allowing me to move my thought process forward and I've got a ton of ideas flowing at this point. I think later today I'm going to do a seperate post on EACH Commando weapon, what I see it's purpose as, and how it can be rebalanced to better meet that purpose relative to the other professions in the game. All of this, however, is just my personal musings and I welcome everybody to post their own ideas as well.

In fact, taking it to it's logical extreme, it would seem fair to do a seperate "basic" heavy weapon for each of the categories of combat that are prerequisite for Commando. Launcher Pistol for those who favor pistols, Heavy Acid Rifle for those who favor rifles, then some kind of heavy carbine (a minigun maybe!!!!!! - that would be INCREDIBLE) and some kind of unarmed weapon (no clue there - suggests for a heavy unarmed weapon please?) for those who want to complement Commando with either Carbineer or TKA.