Commando Archive
Thread: I do not like rocket launchers and heavy beam weapons not being expendable weapons.
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tacwraith
Sat Apr 16, 2005 9:22 pm
#1
Hate it.
One of the commando's greatest strengths was to be able to have his primary weapon (flamer/acid rifle/ and whatever other proffession's weapon he dabbled in) EQUIPPED and be able to lob a grenade or fire a rocket at a distant target without having to unequip weapon, equip a rocket launcher or grenade, fire it, re-equip the weapon they first had in hand.
Best example of this comes in the days of pre-holocron nerfs.. when the imperials abused AT-ST's as pets to high heaven. My guild used to run around in small commando units hunting these exploiters in krayt hunting grounds.
We would find them and engage the at-st's and their owners and the groups that were with them.. fights were furious but it was our ability to strafe the enemy with our rifles and carbines from long range while at the same time being able to lob a grenade or fire a high damage rocket at a moment's notice. Heck we didnt even use the flamethrower at all unless there were melee types closing in because the time it took to switch a weapon...as we found out in our very first set of sorties... would let our victims gain the upper hand since they were either more numerous or had more firepower (at-sts). Delays were problematic.
Now I go to test center and see this idiotic new system. This has severely hurt the commando. Just what the F! was hard about making the consumable heavy weapons EASY TO CRAFT instead of making it into a quake like BFG?
Just SUCKS.
One of the commando's greatest strengths was to be able to have his primary weapon (flamer/acid rifle/ and whatever other proffession's weapon he dabbled in) EQUIPPED and be able to lob a grenade or fire a rocket at a distant target without having to unequip weapon, equip a rocket launcher or grenade, fire it, re-equip the weapon they first had in hand.
Best example of this comes in the days of pre-holocron nerfs.. when the imperials abused AT-ST's as pets to high heaven. My guild used to run around in small commando units hunting these exploiters in krayt hunting grounds.
We would find them and engage the at-st's and their owners and the groups that were with them.. fights were furious but it was our ability to strafe the enemy with our rifles and carbines from long range while at the same time being able to lob a grenade or fire a high damage rocket at a moment's notice. Heck we didnt even use the flamethrower at all unless there were melee types closing in because the time it took to switch a weapon...as we found out in our very first set of sorties... would let our victims gain the upper hand since they were either more numerous or had more firepower (at-sts). Delays were problematic.
Now I go to test center and see this idiotic new system. This has severely hurt the commando. Just what the F! was hard about making the consumable heavy weapons EASY TO CRAFT instead of making it into a quake like BFG?
Just SUCKS.
Ohetie
Sat Apr 16, 2005 9:24 pm
#2
i do think it's kinda odd that a rocket launcher isn't expendable, just cause... where do the rockets come from?
Ohetie
djkav
Sun Apr 17, 2005 1:12 am
#3
It would of been cool to have the rocket launcher to use ammo packs. Ammo packs could of had like 500 rockets per stack. You could of then used different ammo packs for different situations. You could drag an ammo pavk on to the RL to load it. This would have a warm up and cool down delay to simulate the changing.
But i guess beggers cant be choosers
I'm just happy to lose all our consumable weapons 
But i guess beggers cant be choosers
I'm just happy to lose all our consumable weapons
Ajo79
Sun Apr 17, 2005 1:16 am
#4
The old consumables where pretty cool. I loved the fire animation where the character kneeled, put the launcher to the shoulder and fired. And like you said, it was like a secondary weapon, since you had your FT equipped.
But on the other hand we got some realy, realy awesome looks to the new heavy weapons. They look realy big and nasty.
I haven't switched weapons yet I think in combat so I don't know how long the down time is for switching. Have to do some testing about that.
Khog
Sun Apr 17, 2005 6:17 am
#5
We still have a range of grenades to use without switching weapons.
tacwraith
Sun Apr 17, 2005 9:51 am
#6
Yes Khog, but at 20m range for them.
The rocket launcher and heavy particle beam cannon can go out to 64m.
SOE shouldve just increased the ammo on the disposable and made them be craftable from non-name specific resources (aka ferrous metals instead of named steel).
The rocket launcher and heavy particle beam cannon can go out to 64m.
SOE shouldve just increased the ammo on the disposable and made them be craftable from non-name specific resources (aka ferrous metals instead of named steel).
StarNick
Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:36 am
#7
I do prefer equipable and non-generic looking Heavy Weapons that leave you invulnerable when you're firing them...
But, the possibility of making them equipable and taking ammo packs to make them harder hitting could be a possibility down the road (remember it was once taken into consideration when either raptor or razer had a big proposal post about it a long time ago?)
But, also on the flip side...that could be why they were made equipable and not super high damaging for balance issues. They didn't want them to not be useful because of crafting limits, and then they most likely didn't want them to be abused due to their high damage with everyone and their grandmother taking up commando to get these uber weapons. Also, if they took ammo packs and were brought up to damage levels pre-CU, then theres always the case that they wouldn't be able to be used with specials...
But, the possibility of making them equipable and taking ammo packs to make them harder hitting could be a possibility down the road (remember it was once taken into consideration when either raptor or razer had a big proposal post about it a long time ago?)
But, also on the flip side...that could be why they were made equipable and not super high damaging for balance issues. They didn't want them to not be useful because of crafting limits, and then they most likely didn't want them to be abused due to their high damage with everyone and their grandmother taking up commando to get these uber weapons. Also, if they took ammo packs and were brought up to damage levels pre-CU, then theres always the case that they wouldn't be able to be used with specials...
Maxanto
Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:44 am
#8
Ohetie wrote:
i do think it's kinda odd that a rocket launcher isn't expendable, just cause... where do the rockets come from?
another laughable post. come on what about the endless supply of energy for our launch pistols? flame throwers? not to mention rifles, pistols, carbines?
you get to use a weapon wot 5 times and then need to buy more? this is something you all want? whats the saying? never look a gift horse in the mouth?
Shinky
Sun Apr 17, 2005 12:00 pm
#9
i kinda feel like we're playing a game with /allweapons on. rather than how many guns can i carry and some ammo on my back. get what i mean? the realism that it had to combat kinda fell into a chasm of game video gaity
Seriah-EH
Sun Apr 17, 2005 1:31 pm
#10
they should have made the rocket launcher bigger ingame
when in combat, it would sit on the shoulder and be huge...with like backblast graphics and everything...(think modern anti-tank weaponry) and when not in combat, it should have to be like....slung across the back or something
tacwraith
Sun Apr 17, 2005 1:49 pm
#11
"* They cost as much or more resources to craft then non-consumable weapons with higher DPS"
--- that has been a huge issue with the weapons since launch and it was something WS and commando had been screaming to get fixed. It never was.
"* The prices WS's set on them made the price vs. "shots connecting" way off balance, which lead to low sales"
Price was high because of point #1. Shots connecting vs price was balancing factor 1 for this supposedly damage in 1 shot weapon.
"* The forced the user to stop and kneel to fire, which put the Commando in a very vunerable position"
Thats balancing point #2 for a supposedly high damage in 1 shot weapon. Look at what we have now instead: Fugging QUAKE idiots running around launching rockets. Its disgusting.
"* They couldn't use specials"
You dont need specials other than one big blast. Thats why the damage of the weapon was built into the weapon itself, not dependent on some jackassed special attack damage modifier.
"* They didn't have status effects"
We always wanted the effects for the grenades.. giving effects to 64m range very high damage aoe per shot weapons wouldve been overpowering and unwise.
"So in essence, the old versions had negative impacts on both Commandos and Weaponsmiths..."
... because SOE never even addressed the damn things.
"Now let's examine the new versions...
* The crafting of them falls along the same lines of other non-consumable weapons and their DPS is comparable
* Their price will now match up to weapons of comparable usefulness (based on resources needed and crafting time)."
Price for crafting it was big issue #1 for this weapon when it was consumable. Thus I say SOE shouldve just fixed the damn resource requirements for the weapons so wepsmiths could make them much easier and faster, lowering the cost. And this 'comparable' DPS thing really irks me. Its a HEAVY weapon. Its suppposed to do VERY HIGH damage in ONE hit and have a long refire delay. Right now the rockets do no more damage than a near master elite using his weapon special. Oh, its AOE now, BIG DEAL every proffession has its AOE attack that can go to their weapon's max range. See rifleman.
"* They can be used while on the move as well as have various ranges"
While on the move.. thats quake arcade BS gameplay. THe CU was supposed to be strategic/tactical gameplay. A player lobbing rockets while on the move does not qualify as that. Oh and the rockets doing same damage as soemone with a rifle too. Bah!
"* They can use special attacks"
Yes, making the rocket launcher as a weapon itself mostly useless as it'd be dependent on a special attack's damage and refire multipliers. Go master commando/master rifleman and tell me if theres any difference between the one using a rocket launcher with the master rifleman aoe special and the one using a T-21 with the same rifelman special? No difference at all. 'xcept for the graphics of course.
* They have status effects"
See grenades.
--- that has been a huge issue with the weapons since launch and it was something WS and commando had been screaming to get fixed. It never was.
"* The prices WS's set on them made the price vs. "shots connecting" way off balance, which lead to low sales"
Price was high because of point #1. Shots connecting vs price was balancing factor 1 for this supposedly damage in 1 shot weapon.
"* The forced the user to stop and kneel to fire, which put the Commando in a very vunerable position"
Thats balancing point #2 for a supposedly high damage in 1 shot weapon. Look at what we have now instead: Fugging QUAKE idiots running around launching rockets. Its disgusting.
"* They couldn't use specials"
You dont need specials other than one big blast. Thats why the damage of the weapon was built into the weapon itself, not dependent on some jackassed special attack damage modifier.
"* They didn't have status effects"
We always wanted the effects for the grenades.. giving effects to 64m range very high damage aoe per shot weapons wouldve been overpowering and unwise.
"So in essence, the old versions had negative impacts on both Commandos and Weaponsmiths..."
... because SOE never even addressed the damn things.
"Now let's examine the new versions...
* The crafting of them falls along the same lines of other non-consumable weapons and their DPS is comparable
* Their price will now match up to weapons of comparable usefulness (based on resources needed and crafting time)."
Price for crafting it was big issue #1 for this weapon when it was consumable. Thus I say SOE shouldve just fixed the damn resource requirements for the weapons so wepsmiths could make them much easier and faster, lowering the cost. And this 'comparable' DPS thing really irks me. Its a HEAVY weapon. Its suppposed to do VERY HIGH damage in ONE hit and have a long refire delay. Right now the rockets do no more damage than a near master elite using his weapon special. Oh, its AOE now, BIG DEAL every proffession has its AOE attack that can go to their weapon's max range. See rifleman.
"* They can be used while on the move as well as have various ranges"
While on the move.. thats quake arcade BS gameplay. THe CU was supposed to be strategic/tactical gameplay. A player lobbing rockets while on the move does not qualify as that. Oh and the rockets doing same damage as soemone with a rifle too. Bah!
"* They can use special attacks"
Yes, making the rocket launcher as a weapon itself mostly useless as it'd be dependent on a special attack's damage and refire multipliers. Go master commando/master rifleman and tell me if theres any difference between the one using a rocket launcher with the master rifleman aoe special and the one using a T-21 with the same rifelman special? No difference at all. 'xcept for the graphics of course.
* They have status effects"
See grenades.
Kasyan
Sun Apr 17, 2005 4:35 pm
#12
I don't post much - but I must agree with the subject ---- something is wrong with how our Special Heavy Weapons have been adapted to the CU
Below is a part of a hand written letter I am sending to Lucas Arts (per their request) about the CU:
COMMANDO PROFESSION IN THE COMBAT UPGRADE (CU):
I love the new Commando Profession. I have one critisism however:
NO ONE TRUELY LISTENED TO THE COMMANDO POPULATION
for a year and nine months Commandos have yelled, screamed, whinned, and complained for many unreasonable things on the SOE Profession Forum for Commando.
In the end some very good requests/ ideas have arisen that have made their way into the CU. However the following have not made it to the combat upgrade despite their qualitative nature:
- Make Consumables easier to craft - and leave them basically unchanged [high damage at the cost of limited uses]
- Higher initial damage w/ slower speed for specialized heavy weapons (i.e. Partical Beam Cannon; Rocket Launcher, etc) [To create balance between damage vs. speed & create need for strategic weapons choices]
- Reloadable, rather than consumable, specialized heavy weapons (i.e. Rocket Launcher; Acid Beam Cannon; etc.) [To maintain High Damage at the cost of Limited Uses]
THESE VERY KEEN IDEAS THAT MAINTAIN COMMANDOS UNIQUE IDENTITY WERE NOT ACTED UPON
Currently: All specialized Heavy Weapons in the CU Testing do only moderate damage: in player Beta testing with two other players for 9 consecutive hours ( one Master BH/ Pikeman the other M BH/ Rifleman ) we found that although very much functional and fun to play, Commando's specialized Heavy Weapons are under powered and over-speed (too fast) - which didn't make sense to any of us...
The fact that the Proton Rifle is more powerful than the specialized Heavy Weapon(s) created the following problem for the Commando Profession:
***** IT ONLY RESHUFFLES THE DECK - ONCE AGAIN LEAVING COMMANDO WITH ONLY A FEW TRUELY GOOD WEAPONS FOR USE IN GAME PLAY *****
The above issue/ problem has plagued Commando from the very inseption of SWG; where despite the multitude of Heavy Weapons at Commando's disposal, do to various "limitations" they were obsolete in comparison to a few or one 'decent' (combat effective) weapon(s)...
Further - becuase the Heavy Weapons choices offer negligable strategic choice/ value, it is clear to this vetran Commando, that other Commandos will acclimate themselves to using only some rather than all the weapon of Commando. Thereby raising the question: "Why have them in the first place?"
Those who are vetran Commandos choose to be so becuase of our affinaty for being High Damage wielders - despite this, we all want to be in balance with the other professions; which is why the suggestion of maintaining High Damage while impossing a reasonable speed penalty was raised. Yet as stated, regretfully, this was not afforded to the Commando Profession in the CU.
As of this writting: WE ARE NOT UNIQUE IN COMBAT; and no Commando understands why?!
Yet (as an important note) the Commando Community 'was' heard in regards to Grenades... Why could this nt have been applied to our specialized Heavy Weapons???
...
If Commandos no longer function in combat as true "damage" dealers, then those of us already heart broken from waiting 1 year to have our nerf lifted, will find that we are now simply, in essence, someone elses profession (combat specials) with a BIG LOOKING WEAPONS THAT "BARK LOUDER THAN THEY BITE".
COMMANDOS ONCE AGAIN WILL NOT HAVE A TRUE GROUP PLACE IN COMBAT -- INSTEAD GEING VERY EASILY SUBSTITUTED BY ANOTHER MORE EFFECTIVE DAMAGE DEALING PROFFESSION (SUCH AS MASTER RIFLEMAN) IN THE POST CU ENVIRONMENT
...
It is my belief that with the current Commando set-up in CU Testing, and with consideration of the above points, with consultation with the Commando Correspondent and Community, ocmmando can be revamped in the CU properly, reasonably, and with the balance intended, with not dismantling the profession and not incurring great expense of development.
Sincerely,
...
-------------------------------------------
As I read what more astute Commandos have said similar to this - I can only wonder why do some of us simply "roll over" with all these drastic changes to the way Commando functions in combat - rather than stand firm on those aspects to Commando that makes us unique?
Kass
Master Commando for 17 months (playing for 19 mos)without interuption ---
DarthPolecat
Sun Apr 17, 2005 7:19 pm
#13
Ill never forget the first time a BH came for me when i was a real low level paddy, I wish i could have seen the look on his face when i popped his tantal wearing self with a rocket.
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