Commando Archive
Thread: The Commando Conundrum...Part II (Quid Pro Quo)
Onto the damage comparison between Commando and Spray/Fan/Full Auto Area.
We have two factors in our favor for AoE damage:
First is that we can just use ranged shot pretty much indefinately while the non-commando AoEs suck action fairly quickly. In a prolonged fight, the commando will have a healthy action pool to throw into specials while the non-commando will be using their action for the AoE.
We have different types of AoE to use depending on the situation. I personally only use the plasma flame thrower when I have a single target I'm worried about because as has been demonstrated, it's AoE damage is lacking (even if it was working) and it lacks the level of control of the radius weapons. My guess would be that cone based weapons are intended to do full damage only to their main target while the radius weapons are intended to do full damage to everything in the radius. The only reason I think this is because the PFT does 100/40 damage and the LBC does 100/100 damage.
Since the non-commando AoE's have a cooldown, let's assume that they can only be fired every 3 seconds even if the weapon is faster. Let's further assume that the commando can fire ranged shot every two seconds.
Using the two examples that were provided, this means that the pistoleer is doine 333 DPS to all targets. The Commando is doing 500 DPS to his main target and 200 DPS to all other targets.
If we throw in the LBC we get a much more interesting comparison. I'll assume that it only does 900 damage per shot since it is not as powerful as the PFT. Every two seconds it would do 900 damage to all targets. This would translate into 450 DPS to all targets.
True, the BH and Carbineer can do higher damage AoE then the pistoleer but those would do less damage then a commando using a high-damage special with the innate AoE.
These numbers are all rough since I'm not able to log in and give them a better comparison.
Defense: Moderate(3)
The Commando is the specialist of Heavy Weapons. An entire line of unique heavy weapons are available in the Commando's arsenal. The Commando also receives many bonuses making them more proficient with standard weapons when combined with other profession skills. Whatever the damage dealing requirement is for a situation, the Commando has the answer.
Breakdown:
Primary Role: Heavy Weapon Specialist - True
Our weapons are skill box cert'd (along with CL level), not allowing anyone but a Commando to pick them up and use them.
Secondary Role: Medium Range Damage Specialist - Partially True
Commando has at its disposal weapons that have various max ranges. For instance, the Plasma Thrower is 25 meters, the Heavy Lightning Beam Cannon is 40 meters, and the Proton Rifle is 65 meters.
Offense: Very Strong (5) - False
Commando weapons have low elemental damages, and low max damages (even on enhanced versions) on its weapons when compared to other damage dealing profs (i.e. rifleman, swordsman), and even falls short of Carbineer - which is deemed as having a crowd control role. In addition, the intended balancer, the high Special Action Cost, is in no way reflective of the relative low damage output of Commando weapons - to prevent long term repeated spamming of said weapons.
With the lack of traditional profession specific specials, AoE is said to be the major contibutor to the rating of 5 for offensive output. Even if AoE worked correctly (100 percent damage to main target, 40 percent splash damage to targets in its cone / radius of attack), Commando still falls short in terms of AoE damage output in comparison to Carbineer, and even Pistoleer - both of which have 100 / 100 AoE attacks. Using 1000 damage to main target as an easy number to work with, a Commando using a Plasma Thrower with a non-AoE ranged special would show damage output in the Combat log as follows:
Target A (main target) takes 1000 points of damage
Target B (target caught in cone/radius) takes 400 pts of damage
Target C (target caught in cone/radius) takes 400 pts of damage
TargetD (target caught in cone/radius) takes 400 pts of damage
TargetE (target caught in cone/radius) takes 400 pts of damage
A Pistoleer using its profession specific AoE attack, and again using 1000 as an easy number to work with, would show damage output in the Combat log as follows:
Target A (main target) takes 1000 points of damage
Target B (target caught in cone/radius) takes 1000 pts of damage
Target C (target caught in cone/radius) takes 1000 pts of damage
TargetD (target caught in cone/radius) takes 1000 pts of damage
TargetE (target caught in cone/radius) takes 1000 pts of damage
These same numbers can be applied to Carbineer, using one of its many AoE attacks. Further, when using a Carbineer or Pistoleer specific AoE attack with a Commando weapon, the Commando does NOT receive the 100 main / 100 area damage output with its weapon, and is again relegated to 100 main / 40 area. It defeats the purpose of using an AoE specific attack from another profession, which the Commando MUST do,because of thelack ofCommandospecific specials!
The main question here: What is the logic behind someone using a Commando specific weapon (for instance, aflamethrower) to do LESS damage using ANY special, when MORE damage can be done using a traditional AoEattack from another profession? Letsnot forget that other professions have weapons that have just as high, if not higher damage weapons with LESS SAC cost...
POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS: Reinstate Commando specific specials, increase the damage ratings of all Commando weapons to be more inline with their significant SAC cost, as well as relative slow speed, apply hidden damage modifiers to specials when used with a Commando weapon.
Defense: Moderate (3) - True, but with contradictions in need of clarification...
The Commando received, THANKFULLY, significant defensive upgrades from the CU. Commando can now stand its own, and be better than most when paired correctly with other profession.
However....
Due to the AoE of all of its weapons, except for the Proton Rifle, the Commando is an aggromagnet in any multiple mob encounter. This would imply that the Commando is MEANT to take aggro, therefore MEANT to play the role of tank in the group. But, the Commando does NOT have the defensive characteristics of a tank.Once the Commando uses a special from another prof (even a non-AoE special - which is overwritten by the innate AoE of its weapons), all mobs / NPCs attack the Commando.The group healer(s) will try and save the Commando, but the newly developed "hate" system then causes the mobs to attack the healers. The true tank of the group (for instance, a TKM) cant hold agro after the Commando attacks, the Commando cant withstand the damage the mob is inflicting after causing the mobs/NPCs to break agro away from the tank, the doctor/CM then takes agro when trying to heal the Commando...The doc/CM typically - unless paired with tkm - cant withstand the damage from the mob/NPC's....Everyone dies. Where is the fun? I realize this is a staple of RPG's, but its an absolute failure and one of the worst ideas ever. This is why Commando is specifically excluded / not wanted in high end PvE situations/dungeons such as the DWB, or Corvette.
If the Commando is MEANT to take aggro, then our defensive abilities MUST be increased. If Commando is meant to be the damage dealer, then the hate system needs to be adjusted, or the tanks need better ways to hold agro in their role. Also, there is a time and place for AoE. High intensity, high CL mob/NPC populated areas is NOT one of them. This excludes the Commando from having any role in much of the content of SWG.
POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS: Reinstatement of Commando specific specials to allow specific targetting of mobs/NPCs, to have the choice between a singular target, or AoE attack. Code more weapons for the Commando to be nonAoE except for the Proton Rifle, which is a nonguaranteed high end NPC loot.
Crowd Control: Minimal (1) - False
Because Commando is intended to have working AoE on all its weapons besides the Proton Rifle, this directly means that the Commando is to do damage to the crowd (via the AoE), or innate states (as per the Heavy Weapons - knockdown, stun, blind) built into Heavy Weapons. The only part of this that is true is the states that are inflicted by our heavy weapons do not last long enough to be viable for use, thus garnering the 1 rating - they dont last long enough to be of any value - especially when you consider that the Carbineers AoE state attacks last much longer, doing MORE damage at the same time than is possible with the Heavy Weapons - due to their high CL level than Commando Heavy Weapons.
POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS: Remove innate states from Heavy Weapons. Reinstate Commando specific specials to allow Commandos to target one mob/NPC, or multiple mobs/NPCs. If the Commando NEEDS, or wants state attacks, the Commando is free to get these attacks from other profession.
"The Commando is the specialist of Heavy Weapons. An entire line of unique heavy weapons are available in the Commando's arsenal." - True
Commando is blessed with skill tree/box specific weapons that no other prof can use without that skill tree/box.
"The Commando also receives many bonuses making them more proficient with standard weapons when combined with other profession skills" - True, but with consequences that they wont get if they dabble in another profession.
Yes, Commando DOES receive skill mods that can be applied to standard weapons when combined with other professions skills. BUT. So does every other profession. Also, if a Pistoleer decides they need more ranged speed, or accuracy, or even defenses they can dabble in another profession besides Commando and get the same results, if not better. The biggest sticking point is that same Pistoleer will also get MORE attacks by dabbling in another profession. Why would a Pistoleer, needing a ranged knockdown, expend the extra 15 points necessary to get it with a Rocket Launcher in the Commando profession, when they can get it within Carbineer and do more damage (using a higher damage weapon; a faster weapon; a less SAC intensive weapon - eithera pistol or carbine)AND get a true AoE attack, and not something restricted by radius?? They'll STILL get the ranged speed mods. They'll STILL get the ranged accuracy mods. They'll STILL get defensive mods. AND they will get more attacks! Dabbling in Commando by that Pistoleer (or any profession for that matter) is a guaranteed way to get less return for your skill point dollar than if you dabble in another profession.
POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS: Increase the mod bonuses offered by the Commando. Instill NEW Commando specials that arent weapon specific (a la /flamesingle2 or /acidsingle2)
This turned out a bit longer than I intended, but its a good essay on why Commando in and of itself, is a contradiction to itself....
Here's to hoping a red lettered person will read it, and a lightbulb will go off over their head....
Message Edited by RankorCity on 07-21-2005 02:29 PM