Commando Archive
Thread: dont asume anythaing
Brilyn
Fri Aug 20, 2004 5:22 pm
#40
< that line is curved >
Unless it's an inverse curve, a Curve provides greater accuaracy benefit than a straight line, mostly.
SinjenRandall
Sun Aug 22, 2004 6:48 am
#41
Range experimented grenades are vastly superior to grenades that have no points of experimentation in range. I can, and have, reproduced this in combat testing. Range experimentation might as well beequal to accuracy when talking about grenades.
I have tested Brilyn's grenades, and I will never buy any grenades that aren't range-experimented again. Ever.
I am not here to argue the viability of grenades, I am simply stating a fact. Accuracy in this case does not solveall problems, but it doesalleviate a major accuracy issue, which means moretargets will meet favorable conditions for a grenade toss.
I am going to throw grenades, mostly because I can,I guess. I am fully aware of the problematic nature of them. So I throw them mostly in a group, or with my droid tanking, or to get the first shot in. With range experimentation, I can make a successful toss at 30 metersjust aboutevery single time I try it. I still miss sometimes, but it isn't like throwing entire stacks in a futile attempt to damage the target only to hurt myself.
I have even gotten fairly good at rushing Mokks, timing it, and throwing a proton grenade on the run. By the timethe target and myself areabout 30 meters apart, I go through the grenade toss animation, hit one or two, and move backwards from that position with flamecone2.
Now Iin some ways agree with your assessment that grenades"suck". In all likelyhood, it would be better in many cases to just not even try throwing them. But I think what Brilyn is trying to say is that with more accurate grenades (which experimenting on range will produce), you can make the best of them if you want to. And since I am going to use them no matter what (I think they are fun), I definitely prefer range experimented grenades.
nbd9k
Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:57 am
#42
I think one of the problems we really run into here, is a clash between the commando skillset and the grade of weapons we use.
lets start with a look at the FT, since its really our only viable weapon.
Im running around as a master commando, but my weapons are underpreforming. so, i pay a boatload of money to have a weaponsmith craft me a high end FT. max damage at 1200ish, and a 3.3 speed on it, as well as more than reasonable acuracy for it. i had to provide the kyrat tissue, and i still paid a mint to get the best resources into this thing. end result: a seriously respectable FT. i run out to do some damage with this thing, and LO! its still missing at least every other shot, and though it does extremely high damage when it hits, the refire time between specials remains just about the same: slow.
there are aspects of this that are controled not by the weapons quality, but by the commando skillset. we can tweak it a little bit with some good weapons, but when it comes down to it, we are tied down by our stats.
moving on. i tried this experiment with the HAR, and after a boatload of money, came out with a result very similar to my low end HAR. i ask the WS whats up, and he swears those were the best stats he could produce. bottom line here, the HAR will never be effective in its current state.
so i went on to the launcher tree. here, i noticed some results, but not in the way i expected. the average low end RL fires at somewhere around 10-12s on attack speed. the high end one hit for significantly more damage, and had a refire down at 4.5 however, the weapons switch delay caused problems for me here, and after firing shots, it took too long to switch back to FT. also, once again, even the high end RL hit every couple of shots, which is crazy when you think about the time it takes to fire them. i tried a high end acid launcher and particle beam with similar results, all the while making this weaponssmith a rich man.
i decided to tackle grenades last. i had alot of bad experiences with grenades as a newbie master commando, so i was loathe to try this one, but by now, the WS was as curious as i to see what kind of damage we could do. so we made some high end proton and thermal detonators. YES!!! there was, in fact, a vast diference! they hit far more acurately, for a great deal more damage than a low end grenade. the problems stemmed from other directions. the charging melee NPCs pretty much carried a live grenade right back to my feet, so when my Proton grenade hit for 3k damage, there was nothing left of me. the fambaa, on the other hand, was unfazed. no biggie, i thought, next time ill just run away. not so lucky. theres still a delay on movement and weapons switching when you throw a grenade, much like the launchers.
my biggest problem with grenades? you cant use them inside. wheres the fun in that?
now truely an interesting weapon in the commando array is the launcher pistol. its not perticularly effective as a commando, but in the hands of a master pistoleer stacked with novice commando to get the cert, it is truely a weapon to behold. since im testing this on TC2, i havent been able to get my hands on a high end Launcher pistol, but the bluefrog issue, which has low end stats, can really work some magic when combined with the pistoleer specials. i would love to see what a high end can do.
SO, in conclusion, yes, a high quality weapon does have its perks, but alot of our failure stems from the settings placed in the game to prevent us from being uberplayers.
my recomendation to anyone curious about the commando skilset: go on TC2 and give it a try. this will let you make your own opinions on our situation instead of having to take mine. thats what im doing with all the other professions right now.
submitted courteously,
-harv
StarNick
Sun Aug 22, 2004 10:30 am
#43
< that line is curved >
Unless it's an inverse curve, a Curve provides greater accuaracy benefit than a straight line, mostly.
I was making a joke... 
You never can be too sure of those crafty devs....
StarNick
Sun Aug 22, 2004 10:38 am
#45
Eh no worries...we all get a little like that on these forums from time to time....hehe...
Message Edited by StarNick on 08-22-2004 01:39 PM
nbd9k
Sun Aug 22, 2004 10:53 am
#46
in reference to previous weapons switch comments, i was using the term loosely. what i was refering to is the delay that occurs between the time you can fire the RL or grenade and the time you can fire an FT shot after it. this delay does not occur between sucessive grenade throws or successive RL shots, so in my opinion it mimics the weapon switch delay. hence i lump them in the same category.
i have no idea why grenades would work in a merchant tent, but go into any dungeon and try to throw one. you may have found the error in that one. if only i could do all my pve in merchant tents
as far as the range modifyers on any of these weapons, you may have noticed im not one for remembering numbers or statistics. given the weapons i was using were impressive pretty much across the board, and i never employ a wapon (situation willing) unless im at an optimum range, off the top of my head i would say the range modifyers were pretty darn good. thats about all i can offer up at this point. sorry.
TC2 is for testing the FS quests, but who says you cant test them as a master commando, just to get a feeling for the profession?
we really see here the diferences in just basic understanding based on the perspective of the indivdual.
rather than taking any of our words for it, trying it all for yourself is probably more viable. besides, on TC2, whos to say you cant instantly master WS, buid yourself some uber weapons with all the free resources, and switch to master commando to try them out?
arent we really trying to play in the grey areas of the regs anyway?
-harv
Brilyn
Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:05 am
#47
< but go into any dungeon and try to throw one. >
Dang.
I thought you may have meant that, but hoped 'buildings' and 'dungeons' worked the same.
I'll look into it, mainly as I was planning on bring a crate of C12s the next time the guild went to do Nightsisters (seeing as Carbines are completely out....).
< given the weapons i was using were impressive pretty much across the board, and i never employ a wapon (situation willing) unless im at an optimum range, off the top of my head i would say the range modifyers were pretty darn good. thats about all i can offer up at this point >
While I get what you're saying, this isn't necessarily correct.
See, there are a number of components in weapons, that I can choose to pump up Accuracy at a lost to Speed/Damage. The Stock being the main one.
I'm willing to bet large sums of cash that your WS in question made a stanard FT and HAR, and used damn good Scopes on them, while completely ignoring the Stock option.
Of course, I can't know that for certain as I haven't seen the stats on the weapon in question.
I'll be posting pics of my Accurate Heavy Weapons a little later, just need to get some time to do so.
< we really see here the diferences in just basic understanding based on the perspective of the indivdual. >
That's a simplification. And it bugs me that you think I'm downplaying Commando Issues due to the fact that I haven't played one. I *could* argue that you're upplaying the issues because you 'haven't used a weapon that I made', but that would arrogant, right? /rolleyes
Take a look at Sinjen's post for a Commando view point.
I'm certain that the weaponsmith in question 'did what he could' but was still focused on the Speed/Damage line that the other professions scream at us for. Because, for other professions, none of the other lines matter a damn.
nbd9k
Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:31 am
#48
its less of an attempt to make any kind of strike against you or your weaponry, and more of an attempt to inspire you to test this stuff and put foreward your results to benifit the entire commando profession, as well as ammunition against the devs. im not really a statistics kind of guy, and im not perticularly credible when it comes to discussing weapons.
really, ive been a commando since i started this character, and really thats because i couldnt get the hang of crafting anything. thats why i pay other people to do it for me. the only thing i can do to compare weapons is to take a look at the stats. if i find one with completely positive numbers across the board, i know its good and i buy it. thats really my only standard.
the only people i think downplay the troubles of commando stats are DEVs. the fact that youre even here talking to us puts you miles above them. the ideas that youre putting on the table raise that even higher. the only people i feel the need to insult or attack on the forums are the DEVs, and i believe in alot of cases we have good reason to. so dont be insulted, even mildly. not the intention here.
so my emphasis on trying out the TC2 thing is not for you to see what we are all talking about. you already know all that. its for you to process it with the same mentality with which you do all your weapons work.
make sense?
-harv
Brilyn
Mon Aug 23, 2004 12:14 am
#49
< so my emphasis on trying out the TC2 thing is not for you to see what we are all talking about. you already know all that. its for you to process it with the same mentality with which you do all your weapons work. >
Yup.
No problem.
Only problem I had was that TC wouldn't download files, claimed I was missing some. *shrug*
Oh well.
I have a secondary char who I was moving towards Smuggler or BH. I can start moving him toward Commando. It's not exactly a huge change as poor oul' Essei doesn't even have 4 boxs in *anything* yet. 
Edit: Oh, and by 'secondary' I mean 'on a different server'. I don't have two accounts. Far too expensive.
Message Edited by Brilyn on 08-22-2004 08:14 PM
nbd9k
Mon Aug 23, 2004 12:20 am
#50
i know what you mean. this aint cheap.
i had the same problem with TC originally. try running a full scan before going in. that fixed it for me.
-harv
SinjenRandall
Mon Aug 23, 2004 11:07 am
#51
nbd9k wrote:
i have no idea why grenades would work in a merchant tent, but go into any dungeon and try to throw one. you may have found the error in that one. if only i could do all my pve in merchant tents
-harv
Was this on Test Center? Because currently on live I throw grenades in dungeouns indiscriminately. They work fine in the Geo Cave, the Death Watch Bunker, and the corvette. They fixed this already once, so I can't imagine why they would go back to not letting us throw them in dungeons.
Have you tried this on live servers recently? I distinctly remember throwing protons at gaping spiders in the Acklay room while waiting for the Acklay to spawn the other day. I had an entire conversation to someone else about it.