Commando Archive
Thread: Well it has been 4 months..
Novock
Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:12 am
#40
so if we stop flaming them for dates end deadlines and past dates and deadlines that are year over due but still not fruition they will start giving us dates and deadlines? Hmmm intriguing though if we remain quiet then Haden Blackman assumes we have no problems with the game. So be quiet or flame, and of course the problem with so-called flaming is what is a flame. Is asking for information a flame or is calling TH a liar and the devs good for nothing a flame. See I would agree the later is a flame but in all honesty I don't view the first as a flame.And just to clarify I don't believe TH is a liarbut has simply said what SOE has told him. I simply believe the communication policies have been porr at best and it falls on TH so much because he's the Community rep fair or unfair thats what he isBut anyway so its our fault the information is withheld..... fine I won't argue with that lets accept that as the case and thats its that simple. Anyone who voices discontent and frustartion is always called a flamer and us flamers are the reason noone has an actual timeframe on the CU.
Ok now we have the blame on the customers shoulders for missed dates and frustrated sentiments on the forums. Now what? Now we engage in a war by the self-proclaimed wonderful customers of SOE with theflamers. I mean what in the world are you going to accomplish by blaming everything on the unhappy customers. yea I guess it would be wonderful if I could just be happy and excited everytime I got a push back and delay. And guess itseasy to say people like me can never be happy (even though you don't know me nor what I'm looking for) but all i want is some informaton from the Devs. A question and answer period or something of the sorts.Let them answer what they can and say I can't say anything where they can't say anything. This is oneso-called "flamer" who wouldn't be flaming but instead would asking questions and seeking information. heck just for them to do what they did when they first posetd the "whats Up With Combat?" thread would be just outright awesome. I mean all we are wanting is to be somewhat in the loop and we get is silence and those with the information blaimng us now for it not being available to everyone else. Thats a bit unfair my opinion but if thats the tactic you are choosing so beit. the fact is there will always be people who are upset and always be people who can't be staisified but I don't believe you can generically blanket every upset person in that fashion.
Simply put SOE has a bad communications team and seriously need to considering changing policies or something. It would seem to me that they should make better use of their correspondents and release bits and pieces of information out through the correspondents who know their community, who know the info and can work to explain and answer questions. I mean this is far more than the CU the Cu is simply the heart of the game and is so vital to everything that what we talk about. But what about the new loot publich. We can't find any information reagrding it even though it was 2 mini-publishes ago. All that we know is that its not complete yet, but I'd like to know (for example) if the temp skill stims are in the game yet. they were advertised on the front page of SWG as being in there. I really think they need to clarify it. Now those people who were asking for some information... guess what they are doing now... you got it flaming... why... no clarification ever came. If they clarified would there still be some upset people... why yes there will always be upset people... would there be as many as now... NO WAY.
I don't know who writes the little storyline captures in the loading screen but the one who wrote the last one needs to be promoted or something put into communications because he gets it... quoted from the last load in screen.... "I think you'll agree that any information is better than no information" LOL
Here's what I would like to see, calling it flaming or whatever makes it easier fo you to discounti in your mind:
1. If dates are the problem don't give dates, including vague ones. Vague dates have seemed to lead to more trouble than clear ones anyway.
2. release some reasonable information that is not in flux (surely there's something not likely to change in this thing), release it through teh correspondents and allow them to explain and communicate with their communities.
3. Explain better current in-game publishes (loot revamp for example). here's a wonderful opportunity for Th and the devs to really communicate with the community on issues not under flux or NDA and help to re-establish a positive relationship between company and customer.
4. See if there is a way to tackle some of the incredibly long laste bugs to build up better relationships in some of the more volitile sommunity forums. (ex teh auto-pull issue for smuggler)
You know what would be fun, what if SOE (I'll stop using TH as it seems when I use him as the rep for SOE then I'm attacking him personally). What if they through up a bunch of concept art for all kinds of new weapons thsoe we are getting those we are not those that NPCs might have whatever. And ask if you had a choice of three of these weapons now what would they be, i don't know that maybe to mcuh but there's bound to be something they can do to get us excited rather than just telling us we should be excited. Take it for what its worth since its from one the "evil flamers" who have ruined it for everybody.
Message Edited by Novock on 12-15-2004 12:20 PM
garvin
Wed Dec 15, 2004 12:02 pm
#41
Novock wrote:
so if we stop flaming them for dates end deadlines and past dates end deadlines that are year over due but still not fruition they will start giving us dates and deadlines? Hmmm intriguing though if we remain quiet then Haden Blackman assumes we have no problems with the game. So be quiet or flame, and of course the problem with so-called flaming is what is a flame. Is asking for infomration a flame or is calling TH a liar and the devs good for nothing a flame. See I would agree the later is a falme but in all honesty I don't view the first as a flame. But anyway so its our fault the information is withheld..... fine I won't argue with that lets accept that as the case and thats its that simple. Anyone who voices discontent and frustartion is always called a flamer and us flamers are the reason noone has an actual timeframe on the CU.
That's not what I meant...I meant that if we stop attacking TH and the Devs for what is actually understandable and benificial delays, they might stop worrying so much what the ultimate reaction of their giving us information that isn't set in stone...You are understandably PISSED that things are "a year overdue"...right there that tells the devs that if they never gave us timelines, dates, and for the most part, kept us further out of the loop, you'd never even know anything was "a year overdue"...There are ways to get your opinions across more constructively rather then saying "TH is a liar"...Think about it...if you didn't know anything about the the CU, CB, CR, etc and never saw any dates, would you still be able to argue that anything is "over-due"...And with the limited access to information that you have, you have limited knowledge to WHAT CAUSED the delays...if you had ALL the information your feelings might be completely reversed...That's why I say timelines aren't the real issue...It's Communication that is...And after being bit so many times, the devs are nervious about posting anything more that isn't "set in stone"...The don't want to hear anymore "your a year overdue" or "Hey you promised to do A & B...you lied to us"...So yes...it's reactions like those that have created the environment we are living in now...
And on that note, I've already responded to the "a year overdue" arguement...SOE has already responded to the "year overdue" arguement...Tons of people have already responded to "a year overdue" arguement...most people have accepted the fact that what we were getting "back then" isn't anywhere close to what we are getting "now"...so its silly to bring up "a year overdue" anymore...it's NOT the same thing...
Ok now we have the blame on the customers shoulders for missed dates and frustrated sentiments on the forums. Now what? Now we engage in a war by the self-proclaimed wonderful customers of SOE with theflamers. I mean what in the world are you going to accomplish by blaming everything on the unhappy customers. yea I guess it would be wonderful if I could just be happy and excited everytime I got a push back and delay. And guess itseasy to say people like me can never be happy (even though you don't know me nor what I'm looking for) but all i want is some informaton from the Devs. A question and answer period or something of the sorts.Let them answer what they can and say I can't say anything where they can't say anything. This is oneso-called "flamer" who wouldn't be flaming but instead would asking questions and seeking information. heck just for them to do what they did when they first posetd the "whats Up With Combat?" thread would be just outright awesome. I mean all we are wanting is to be somewhat in the loop and we get is silence and those with the information blaimng us now for it not being available to everyone else. Thats a bit unfair my opinion but if thats the tactic you are choosing so beit. the fact is there will always be people who are upset and always be people who can't be staisified but I don't believe you can generically blanket every upset person in that fashion.
Again...Not blaming the customer...Blame is on SOE and you are making that very clear...SOE posted the timelines...they missed the timelines...and they got Flamed for it...Rinse and Repeat...So...what is the solution...well from SOE's viewpoint, the solution is as simple as "Don't Post Timelines"...They in effect caused the issue with their posts, so to fix it from happening again, don't make the same posts...
And those that argue that "Well, when they give us information things go well"...There is a HUGE problem with that and it causes DELAYS...TH has learned this over time...ever notice how good things are in a thread when the Devs/Programmers actively participate in answering questions...Take the recent CU threads for example...What happened after the Devs/Programmers got back to work and stopped replying in the threads? They turned to flames...So in otherwords, the public won't be happy unless the Devs/Programmers keep responding which of course causes work to back up...Even us Correspondents have been asked on more then one occasion to stop bugging the Programmers so much so they can focus on the CU...To keep a Programmer responding in a thread is to keep a programmer away from actually doing the Programming neeeded...the less they respond to us, the more they can get done...So TH's role is to talk to them, get updates, and report them back to all of us...and he does a good job of that in the CU forum...he'd do the same in the Public forums, but because of how many times things have gone totally wrong and flame fests have erupted because of supposed "broken promises", SOE has set the unofficial policy of closely guarding their communications...they only want to post "set in stone" information...
Simply put SOE has a bad communications team and seriously need to considering changing policies or something. It would seem to me that they should make better use of their correspondents and release bits and pieces of information out through the correspondents who know their community, who know the info and can work to explain and answer questions. I mean this is far more than the CU the Cu is simply the heart of the game and is so vital to everything that what we talk about. But what about the new loot publich. We can't find any information reagrding it even though it was 2 mini-publishes ago. All that we know is that its not complete yet, but I'd like to know (for example) if the temp skill stims are in the game yet. they were advertised on the front page of SWG as being in there. I really think they need to clarify it. Now those people who were asking for some information... guess what they are doing now... you got it flaming... why... no clarification ever came. If they clarified would there still be some upset people... why yes there will always be upset people... would there be as many as now... NO WAY.
So, let say TH came out and said "Hey you Commandos, guess what, you are getting the Underslung Carbine" because some programmer told him that and then he later found out that the plans were changed, what would the response be...Let me guess "TH lied to us" along with other flames...Or if TH came out and said "The CU will go live on February 15th, 2004" and then the game producers decided that the Smuggler Revamp really needs to be IN the CU and therefore the CU get's delayed, I wonder what the reactions would be to that...probably "TH lied again!" and "You promised February 15th...your business practices suck!" It wouldn't matter of course that moving the Smuggler revamp into the CU would be HUGELY beneficial for Smugglers and anyone who dabbles Smuggler...no...non-Smugglers would just be upset and flame away...BTW...Both of those things are made up...There are NO current plans to add the Underslung Carbine to Commandos in the CU and Smugglers (as far as I know) are getting some good things, but their main Revamp will be post CU.
Every Delay has had a VERY GOOD reason and I've actively shared with you all each one (as much as I'm allowed to)...They aren't Delaying things because work isn't done or because they just want to keep us hanging...EVERY delay has been because they keep ADDING to the plan...If you aren't willing to believe me, then what's the point of having a Correspondent who's purpose is to bring you info from the Devs and take back your opinions and thoughts to them...
I don't know who writes the little storyline captures in the loading screen but the one who wrote the last one needs to be promoted or something put into communications because he gets it... quoted from the last load in screen.... "I think you'll agree that any information is better than no information" LOL
Here's what I would like to see, calling it flaming or whatever makes it easier fo you to discounti in your mind:
1. If dates are the problem don't give dates, including vague ones. Vague dates have seemed to lead to more trouble than clear ones anyway.
Ok...they've already done that...Giving dates caused problems so they've stopped giving dates...So this one is taken care of...
2. release some reasonable information that is not in flux (surely there's something not likely to change in this thing), release it through teh correspondents and allow them to explain and communicate with their communities.
So what do they do when EVERYTHING is still in flux...My guess is that your Correspondent comes in and tells you all what is (for the most part) not in flux by giving you generic information...anything specific is "in flux"...Haven't I told everyone that we are (1) getting new certs...(2) getting increases in speed, accuracy and defenses...(3) our pre-reqs will play a bigger role...etc...I can't give numbers or cert specifics because, until we hit the Sandbox, ALL OF THAT could change and likely will...So basically I'm giving you what you are asking for...
3. Explain better current in-game publishes (loot revamp for example). here's a wonderful opportunity for Th and the devs to really communicate with the community on issues not under flux or NDA and help to re-establish a positive relationship between company and customer.
I think, for the most part, they do explain things well...TH posted what he could from what was available...and it wasn't to long after that that more full information came out...TH also tends to stick around for days responding to questions and concerns...so again, this one is done...Your asking for what they are already providing...don't believe me...go back and re-review all the posts and features on the Loot Revamp...take notice of how they "evolved" as things stopped being "in flux"....
4. See if there is a way to tackle some of the incredibly long laste bugs to build up better relationships in some of the more volitile sommunity forums. (ex teh auto-pull issue for smuggler)
Some of the bigger bugs out there that have been around since launch are BIG bugs...they aren't easy fixes...so the Devs are trying to take care of some of them with a dedicated publish...the CU will address many of the big bugs out there...They are finally saying "We need time to focus on this, so we are setting our focus on it"...If they just worked on one bug here, someone would complain about them not focusing on the "bigger" issues over there...Everyone feels like the "bugs" that effect them are the most important bugs in the game and don't like it when other bugs get fixed, even though those bugs might be the "biggest bugs" to other people...
Go back through all the past publishes...look at how many bugs have been squashed...Also, you can't tell me that you haven't noticed a HUGE rise in bug squashes over the last couple of months...so again...another of your issues has been taken care of...
So looking back above, all 4 of your issues have already been addressed...so if those are the things you'd like to see and SOE is living up to them, why aren't you happy?
You know what would be fun, what if SOE (I'll stop using TH as it seems when I use him as the rep for SOE then I'm attacking him personally). What if they through up a bunch of concept art for all kinds of new weapons thsoe we are getting those we are not those that NPCs might have whatever. And ask if you had a choice of three of these weapons now what would they be, i don't know that maybe to mcuh but there's bound to be something they can do to get us excited rather than just telling us we should be excited. Take it for what its worth since its from one the "evil flamers" who have ruined it for everybody.
I actually made a suggested just like that for a possible upcoming Friday Feature (based off another post in our Community)...I suggested that the do a FF that shows at least 1 new weapon per combat profession that is currently scheduled to be added via the CU...leave out all the stats and such since they will need to be balanced...But show us pics, preferably sketches over ingame art (I think it's fun to see the sketches and then see how those sketches evolve into the ingame art)...So far the idea has met with support, but I haven't heard back from the Devs yet...TH has repeatedly told us that more CU features are coming...I just think he's waiting on approval to post them...The sick thing is that the information is out there...it exists...I just wish the Devs felt comfortable sharing it...Wonder how we could make them "feel comfortable"...
Message Edited by garvin on 12-15-2004 11:15 AM
Tlk
Wed Dec 15, 2004 12:15 pm
#42
Interesting reading, I have been gone for about 3 weeks, just couldn't deal with the game anymore, and I came back this week to take a peek. And sure enough, nothing has changed, lame excuses as to why the devs are not talking.
What has me extremely concerned is thatthe sandbox testers/participaters are making changes to the whole upgrade but can not ask for input frmo the community. Its nice to ahve a small focus group, but with no information and seeing how diverse peoples perspectives are in terms of soloing, grouping, pvping vs pveing, there is no way any small group of people can accurately represent a diverse large population as SWG. I appreciate the work everyone is volunteering (and envious, I want to know what is going on) but I think I was correct in expecting it to not launch till May of next year.
Personally, I doubt I will come back (which is a shame, I at one point really enjoyed being an imperial master pistoleer/commando with feign death and an AT-ST side kick), this CU silence is ridiculous, and it won't really address the core issue of the game, we are not playing Star Wars or even in a Star Wars Universe.
Good luck testers and all those that will stick around, 1.5 years is enough for me for now, perhaps I will take a peak again in Feb.
garvin
Wed Dec 15, 2004 12:29 pm
#43
Tlk wrote:
Interesting reading, I have been gone for about 3 weeks, just couldn't deal with the game anymore, and I came back this week to take a peek. And sure enough, nothing has changed, lame excuses as to why the devs are not talking.
What has me extremely concerned is thatthe sandbox testers/participaters are making changes to the whole upgrade but can not ask for input frmo the community. Its nice to ahve a small focus group, but with no information and seeing how diverse peoples perspectives are in terms of soloing, grouping, pvping vs pveing, there is no way any small group of people can accurately represent a diverse large population as SWG. I appreciate the work everyone is volunteering (and envious, I want to know what is going on) but I think I was correct in expecting it to not launch till May of next year.
Let me put your concern to rest...first off, the changes we are pushing for a changes that WE KNOW the community would want, as in more weapons, specials, etc...Other changes are in the way certain things are "effected"...they are obvious changes that would likely become "issues" if they weren't addressed BEFORE testing began....
I choose the Sandbox testers did because they "represent" all of you...We have the number cruncher, we have the skeptic, we have longtime knowledgable veteran, etc...And yes, they do a GREAT job representing you...and what they don't catch, YOU ALL WILL when you get into Beta...
The reasons why we only have 5 Sandbox testers is because they want to start with a smaller group this time...partly because of the tech they are deploying and what it can handle, and partly of what happened when they just jumped straight into the Beta's in the past...Look at JTL and the Jedi Betas...they had a hard time directing the large groups to get the tests they needed run...And when the Sandbox starts, it's going to start out focused on certain aspects before it opens up to Beta...Beta will be the real test to see if the system can handle the larger numbers in more of a free for all testing environment...The Devs will have their specific tests run by the Sandbox testers...and the really cool thing is, the Sandbox testers should have some seriously good advice ready for our Beta testers on how to make the most of their Time (template suggestions, weapons stats vs. specials, etc)...
If you want an example of why there aren't more testers currently, look at any public thread that the Devs start...I know that I have problems following every discussion in those threads, and the devs can't possibly respond to every question asked (even though they often try at first)...Imagine how lost we'd be in the choas of the masses regarding the CU if they openned it up to volumes of more people right off the bat...
Our Sandbox testers were selected BECAUSE they could represent you...Just like I represent you all EVERYDAY to the Devs directly in the Correspondent Forums...for the CU, instread of just being one of me, it's like we have 6 Correspondentsworking hard for our Community, each one a great sample of our Community's diversity...
Kalano
Wed Dec 15, 2004 1:02 pm
#44
I've never been jealous of your job Garvin. I thought about it for 2 seconds, then said no way in hell. I know how lazy i am,and you got to have some thick skin. i would have quit a long time ago. But thats me.
I belive in your words. I lapped up everyone of the hints you dropped like a dog. And hope for more. But it does sadden me that many have taken out there anger and angst against you for trying to help us. Sad that sometimes us commandos bite the hand that feeds us.
I probably never make it thru an army psyc eval. Most likely would make me look like the guy who would shot the commandor in the back, but those who truely know me, would be happy that i was there fighting with them.For your efforts and leadership you have given us Garvin, I will always have your back.
Thank you for taking such a thank less job.
/salute
Message Edited by Kalano on 12-15-2004 12:04 AM
Novock
Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:04 pm
#45
Its is impossible to please everyone and flames are going to come whether you post or don't post. It would be impossible to think that out of a world-wide gameplayer base that noone would be upset or unhappy with something posted or with some weapon that was posted and then got changed or taken out in the final go round. that excuse wil always be there always, and this is an impossible hurdle to cross to get thousands of players to not be upset over anything. You're exactly right on this being a make or break SWG, because they have made it that way. For over a year they have dodged questions with the words "it will be addressed in the revamp" "will be addressed in teh balance" it will be addressed in the CU so everybody is going to be looking for all those questions asked in the past to be answered in this thing. Like I said each day that passes the bar rises higher and higher and higher. I think thats the true reason for the silence, they no all the questions they have put off will have to be answered and quite frankly I think they're scared.... and I don't blame em for being scaredthey have set a high hurdle for themselves.
garvin
Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:41 pm
#47
Novock wrote:
BTW white flag... truce this is getting noone anywhere.
If it's one thing you have to know about me...I enjoy a good debate and never take anything said personally...I don't try to sound like I'm "attacking" anyone but I know I sometimes come across that way...You have very strong arguements and I only get into "these dabates" with those I respect...
And if you take anything away from what I said...take away the fact that "I AGREE" that the communication has been extremely weak and this WHOLE THING could have been presented so much better...from Day 1 I've tried to encourage the Devs to take a certain route with their Communication but mostly got the "we know better" type responses...everytime I've come back with "remember the reaction I told you would happen...we'll it's happened" to which I was told "you are over-exagerating" and so on...
The Devs and I have a completely opposite outlook on their communication strategy...If I was incharge I would have over stimulated all of you with more info then you could deal with...Every single step would have been acknowledged and I'd try and focus on Daily updates when there was something new to day...I'd still keep certain aspects private until they could be tried and not just read about (numbers have a way to looking to big or too small on paper, but can come out totally different in a testing environment)...I would also make it very clear that you shouldn't fully judge what you read until you've had time to process EVERYTHING as well as have had a chance to try it out...Only arguements against any proposed change would need valid reasons to back them up as well as calm and clear suggestions for possible alternate routes that could be considered.
If I was the Devs I'd be pretty proud of what they've come up with in the Combat Upgrade...I'd be excited to share...and I'm sure they are both proud and excited, but I too don't fully understand why it's taking so long to communicate...The only thing I can speculate is that it's pure "fear of misunderstood reactions" that is driving their silence and reserve nature when it comes communications.
PS...in case anyone has ever wondered...Guess what I do for a living? I create online trainings of a big companythat instruct folks in the ways of Customer Service.
Latenighter
Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:17 pm
#48
Short reactions and personal opinions:
1) SOE has overpromised and underdelivered.
2) SOE is not communicating because it communicates poorly.
3) SOE will not communicate deadlines because it has not achieved many deadlines.
4) SOE has not dedicated enough resources to meet the deadlines it has set in the past.
5) SOE can not use recent fixes to bugs that have been around for nearly 2 years and identified in testing as a sign of progress or dedication. The bugs shouldn't have been there this LONG in the first place.
6) Garvin is trying his damndest to get us all the information he can, to keep us excited and he is clearly frustrated by SOE's choices.
7) Fighting Garvin serves no purpose, other than venting frustration.
8) Fighting SOE accomplishes nothing because they have set a "tone from the top" that they will do what they will do whenever they chose to do it. Just give them your $14.99 a month and wait for the CURB in an unspecified amount of time.
This is a terrible business model, it makes the customer feel demeaned, and makes the customer question just why it should be paying to be treated like this. This is a Harvard Business School case study in what not to do.
We all understand that the unexpected happens. We aren't suggesting that SOE's job is easy. Software development and implementation is complicated. SOE is not evil. They don't want to irritate anyone. They want you to be happy and enjoying their product. And SOE could do a LOT to make the wait for the CURB easier by making a few adjustments to the way things ARE in the existing game.
Like add a few speed/accuracy points to Flamer in the master commando box. Fix the Smuggler auto-pull. Fix a busted pistoleer special, since there are MANY of those. This doesn't HAVE to be an all eggs in one basket "wait until the CURB and we'll fix it then" situation. It would make the game more useful while waiting.
SOE could take a mature approach, communicate its plans (not the nitty gritty details of calculations and stats), tell the community what its goals are for delivery, and keep an honest dialog going about the events that come up that affect making or missing the deadline. When they are going to miss a deadline, they could announce it and explain the reasons for the deadline being impacted. And that means communicating when they learn of the issue, not figuratively the night before a long awaited upgrade and giving a "Oops. Not going to happen for another 6 months. Sorry."
The meltdown of the player base is obvious to everyone. SOE seems to be holding back on announcing its deadlines because it doesn't want to have the players $14.99 a month vanish between now and then. That's understandable. SOE is in this for money. No complaints about that. But we are paying for a service. We are paying for entertainment. And SOE could deliver more on both FASTER, if it chooses to do so. But someone in the corner office at SOE should really take a look to see if staying quiet is keeping the players paying, because from the tumbleweeds blowing through Theed it doesn't look like it's working very well.
Another tirade and rant brought to you by your friends at RIENcorp. Have a pleasant evening.
1) SOE has overpromised and underdelivered.
2) SOE is not communicating because it communicates poorly.
3) SOE will not communicate deadlines because it has not achieved many deadlines.
4) SOE has not dedicated enough resources to meet the deadlines it has set in the past.
5) SOE can not use recent fixes to bugs that have been around for nearly 2 years and identified in testing as a sign of progress or dedication. The bugs shouldn't have been there this LONG in the first place.
6) Garvin is trying his damndest to get us all the information he can, to keep us excited and he is clearly frustrated by SOE's choices.
7) Fighting Garvin serves no purpose, other than venting frustration.
8) Fighting SOE accomplishes nothing because they have set a "tone from the top" that they will do what they will do whenever they chose to do it. Just give them your $14.99 a month and wait for the CURB in an unspecified amount of time.
This is a terrible business model, it makes the customer feel demeaned, and makes the customer question just why it should be paying to be treated like this. This is a Harvard Business School case study in what not to do.
We all understand that the unexpected happens. We aren't suggesting that SOE's job is easy. Software development and implementation is complicated. SOE is not evil. They don't want to irritate anyone. They want you to be happy and enjoying their product. And SOE could do a LOT to make the wait for the CURB easier by making a few adjustments to the way things ARE in the existing game.
Like add a few speed/accuracy points to Flamer in the master commando box. Fix the Smuggler auto-pull. Fix a busted pistoleer special, since there are MANY of those. This doesn't HAVE to be an all eggs in one basket "wait until the CURB and we'll fix it then" situation. It would make the game more useful while waiting.
SOE could take a mature approach, communicate its plans (not the nitty gritty details of calculations and stats), tell the community what its goals are for delivery, and keep an honest dialog going about the events that come up that affect making or missing the deadline. When they are going to miss a deadline, they could announce it and explain the reasons for the deadline being impacted. And that means communicating when they learn of the issue, not figuratively the night before a long awaited upgrade and giving a "Oops. Not going to happen for another 6 months. Sorry."
The meltdown of the player base is obvious to everyone. SOE seems to be holding back on announcing its deadlines because it doesn't want to have the players $14.99 a month vanish between now and then. That's understandable. SOE is in this for money. No complaints about that. But we are paying for a service. We are paying for entertainment. And SOE could deliver more on both FASTER, if it chooses to do so. But someone in the corner office at SOE should really take a look to see if staying quiet is keeping the players paying, because from the tumbleweeds blowing through Theed it doesn't look like it's working very well.
Another tirade and rant brought to you by your friends at RIENcorp. Have a pleasant evening.
BravenIrish
Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:58 pm
#49
garvin wrote:
PS...in case anyone has ever wondered...Guess what I do for a living? I create online trainings of a big companythat instruct folks in the ways of Customer Service.
OMG! You don't work for The Video Professor do you? J/K Garvin ole' pal.... 
Anyway, I agree with Garvin, I personally would have done it different. THAT'S what I thought the correspondent summit was for. I really thought that the plans for the CURB would be presented to the correspondents, discussed, and the basics agreed on. I then assumed that the devs would give an outline of how to present the ideas in logical order. That way everyone is somewhat involved.
Of course there would be heated debates. But remember, we are ALL Commandos here, and I think we would come to a compromise on even the hardest issues. Amongst ourselves. If the other Sandbox profession teams are at all representative of thier respective communities, the same would hold true with every profession. I think, if done properly and in stages, led by correspondents, and taken in a mature sence, the trickle of info would have worked.
Before I was honored to represent us in the sandbox (Trust me, I take it as a second job and I see the rest of the Commando team holds the same passion), my biggest fear was to have something dumped into my Commando lap and have the Devs say.."Here ya go...like it or leave it!". To me, it would be like going to a classy restaurant, waiting in line forever, then finally being seated and have some dinner being served to me without even looking at the menue. I'd probably take the plate and throw it at whoever braught it to me. Unless it really looked good.
I feel like that waiter. I feel like that guy who's going to bring you a plate and hope you don't slam it in my face. SOE is cooking up some pretty cool stuff. But I'd prefer to serve a few appatizers first instead of dropping a platein front of you. We're trying our best to tell that damn chef what we need...we're going to tast it first as well. But every one has different tasts. On that note...
I really want to stress thatthe community IS making a difference. I know sometimes it a shot in the dark. But sometimes someone posts something that is a perfect example of what's going on in the CURB. That and the wonderful level of responcibility, respect, and unity the Commando Comminity has always portrayed is a HUGE plus.
Commandos are da shiznet! 
We've made it this far....
Slainte to having hope!
Novock
Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:20 am
#50
garvin wrote:
Novock wrote:
so if we stop flaming them for dates end deadlines and past dates end deadlines that are year over due but still not fruition they will start giving us dates and deadlines? Hmmm intriguing though if we remain quiet then Haden Blackman assumes we have no problems with the game. So be quiet or flame, and of course the problem with so-called flaming is what is a flame. Is asking for infomration a flame or is calling TH a liar and the devs good for nothing a flame. See I would agree the later is a falme but in all honesty I don't view the first as a flame. But anyway so its our fault the information is withheld..... fine I won't argue with that lets accept that as the case and thats its that simple. Anyone who voices discontent and frustartion is always called a flamer and us flamers are the reason noone has an actual timeframe on the CU.
That's not what I meant...I meant that if we stop attacking TH and the Devs for what is actually understandable and benificial delays, they might stop worrying so much what the ultimate reaction of their giving us information that isn't set in stone...You are understandably PISSED that things are "a year overdue"...right there that tells the devs that if they never gave us timelines, dates, and for the most part, kept us further out of the loop, you'd never even know anything was "a year overdue"...There are ways to get your opinions across more constructively rather then saying "TH is a liar"...
Ah but see you I wasn't calling Th a liar just using it as an example. I had already edited that but you had quoted it previous the edit.
Think about it...if you didn't know anything about the the CU, CB, CR, etc and never saw any dates, would you still be able to argue that anything is "over-due"...And with the limited access to information that you have, you have limited knowledge to WHAT CAUSED the delays...if you had ALL the information your feelings might be completely reversed...That's why I say timelines aren't the real issue...It's Communication that is...And after being bit so many times, the devs are nervious about posting anything more that isn't "set in stone"...The don't want to hear anymore "your a year overdue" or "Hey you promised to do A & B...you lied to us"...So yes...it's reactions like those that have created the environment we are living in now...
And on that note, I've already responded to the "a year overdue" arguement...SOE has already responded to the "year overdue" arguement...Tons of people have already responded to "a year overdue" arguement...most people have accepted the fact that what we were getting "back then" isn't anywhere close to what we are getting "now"...so its silly to bring up "a year overdue" anymore...it's NOT the same thing...
Its your opinion thats its silly. Changing the scope of it maybe true, and it maybe better but its been more than a year the combat has been promised to be fixed. The solution may have chnaged bu the problem has remained the same.
Ok now we have the blame on the customers shoulders for missed dates and frustrated sentiments on the forums. Now what? Now we engage in a war by the self-proclaimed wonderful customers of SOE with theflamers. I mean what in the world are you going to accomplish by blaming everything on the unhappy customers. yea I guess it would be wonderful if I could just be happy and excited everytime I got a push back and delay. And guess itseasy to say people like me can never be happy (even though you don't know me nor what I'm looking for) but all i want is some informaton from the Devs. A question and answer period or something of the sorts.Let them answer what they can and say I can't say anything where they can't say anything. This is oneso-called "flamer" who wouldn't be flaming but instead would asking questions and seeking information. heck just for them to do what they did when they first posetd the "whats Up With Combat?" thread would be just outright awesome. I mean all we are wanting is to be somewhat in the loop and we get is silence and those with the information blaimng us now for it not being available to everyone else. Thats a bit unfair my opinion but if thats the tactic you are choosing so beit. the fact is there will always be people who are upset and always be people who can't be staisified but I don't believe you can generically blanket every upset person in that fashion.
Again...Not blaming the customer...Blame is on SOE and you are making that very clear...SOE posted the timelines...they missed the timelines...and they got Flamed for it...Rinse and Repeat...So...what is the solution...well from SOE's viewpoint, the solution is as simple as "Don't Post Timelines"...They in effect caused the issue with their posts, so to fix it from happening again, don't make the same posts...
And those that argue that "Well, when they give us information things go well"...The is a HUGE problem with that and it causes DELAYS...TH has learned this over time...ever notice how good things are in a thread when the Devs/Programmers actively participate in answering questions...Take the recent CU threads for example...What happened after the Devs/Programmers got back to work and stopped replying in the threads? They turned to flames...So in otherwords, the public won't be happy unless the Devs/Programmers keep responding which of course causes work to back up...Even us Correspondents have been asked on more then one occasion to stop bugging the Programmers so much so they can focus on the CU...To keep a Programmer responding in a thread is to keep a programmer away from actually doing the Programming neeeded...the less they respond to us, the more they can get done...So TH's role is to talk to them, get updates, and report them back to all of us...and he does a good job of that in the CU forum...he'd do the same in the Public forums, but because of how many times things have gone totally wrong and flame fests have erupted because of supposed "broken promises", SOE has set the unofficial policy of closely guarding their communications...they only want to post "set in stone" information...
In the words of Dr Phil hows that working for ya SOE... cutting the flames down quite a bit eh?
Simply put SOE has a bad communications team and seriously need to considering changing policies or something. It would seem to me that they should make better use of their correspondents and release bits and pieces of information out through the correspondents who know their community, who know the info and can work to explain and answer questions. I mean this is far more than the CU the Cu is simply the heart of the game and is so vital to everything that what we talk about. But what about the new loot publich. We can't find any information reagrding it even though it was 2 mini-publishes ago. All that we know is that its not complete yet, but I'd like to know (for example) if the temp skill stims are in the game yet. they were advertised on the front page of SWG as being in there. I really think they need to clarify it. Now those people who were asking for some information... guess what they are doing now... you got it flaming... why... no clarification ever came. If they clarified would there still be some upset people... why yes there will always be upset people... would there be as many as now... NO WAY.
So, let say TH came out and said "Hey you Commandos, guess what, you are getting the Underslung Carbine" because some programmer told him that and then he later found out that the plans were changed, what would the response be...Let me guess "TH lied to us" along with other flames...Or if TH came out and said "The CU will go live on February 15th, 2004" and then the game producers decided that the Smuggler Revamp really needs to be IN the CU and therefore the CU get's delayed, I wonder what the reactions would be to that...probably "TH lied again!" and "You promised February 15th...your business practices suck!" It wouldn't matter of course that moving the Smuggler revamp into the CU would be HUGELY beneficial for Smugglers and anyone who dabbles Smuggler...no...non-Smugglers would just be upset and flame away...BTW...Both of those things are made up...There are NO current plans to add the Underslung Carbine to Commandos in the CU and Smugglers (as far as I know) are getting some good things, but their main Revamp will be post CU.
Every Delay has had a VERY GOOD reason and I've actively shared with you all each one (as much as I'm allowed to)...They aren't Delaying things because work isn't done or because they just want to keep us hanging...EVERY delay has been because they keep ADDING to the plan...If you aren't willing to believe me, then what's the point of having a Correspondent who's purpose is to bring you info from the Devs and take back your opinions and thoughts to them...
This is kind a a chineese puzzle and an ever ending cricle isn't it. With each day of delay there has to be that much more in it because with each day the expectation bar is sent that much higher.Oh and I believe you on hints and facts that you throw out I just don't share your optimism on time nor do I agree with you that SOE has been handling there communications well and its just flamers causing the problems.
I don't know who writes the little storyline captures in the loading screen but the one who wrote the last one needs to be promoted or something put into communications because he gets it... quoted from the last load in screen.... "I think you'll agree that any information is better than no information" LOL
Here's what I would like to see, calling it flaming or whatever makes it easier fo you to discounti in your mind:
1. If dates are the problem don't give dates, including vague ones. Vague dates have seemed to lead to more trouble than clear ones anyway.
Ok...they've already done that...Giving dates caused problems so they've stopped giving dates...So this one is taken care of...
No Th just did the vague thing a week or so ago and started a lot of this new frustration on teh board or atleast threw a new log on the fire. What if "less than a year more than a mini-publish " never appeared in the post.. hmm He is the Community rep afterall he's in customer service he needs to learn how to speak to a customer base without inciting a huge wave of frustartion and anger and I don't agree that silence is the answer. And by reading the forums I don't see it cutting down any flamin all I see is it fueling it.
2. release some reasonable information that is not in flux (surely there's something not likely to change in this thing), release it through teh correspondents and allow them to explain and communicate with their communities.
So what do they do when EVERYTHING is still in flux...My guess is that your Correspondent comes in and tells you all what is (for the most part) not in flux by giving you generic information...anything specific is "in flux"...Haven't I told everyone that we are (1) getting new certs...(2) getting increases in speed, accuracy and defenses...(3) our pre-reqs will play a bigger role...etc...I can't give numbers or cert specifics because, until we hit the Sandbox, ALL OF THAT could change and likely will...So basically I'm giving you what you are asking for...
Yes you are giving bits and pieces that are quiite helpful. I just believe that surely by now there is more than be can share. if Absolutely everypiece every cert every weapon every move every color on the color pallette is in flux then we have a long wait.
3. Explain better current in-game publishes (loot revamp for example). here's a wonderful opportunity for Th and the devs to really communicate with the community on issues not under flux or NDA and help to re-establish a positive relationship between company and customer.
I think, for the most part, they do explain things well...TH posted what he could from what was available...and it was to long after that that more full information came out...TH also tends to stick around for days responding to questions and concerns...so again, this one is done...Your asking for what they are already providing...don't believe me...go back and re-review all the posts and features on the Loot Revamp...take notice of how they "evolved" as things stopped being "in flux"....
I read the posts on loot revamp everyday and still no information on the temp skill stims. they're advertsied on teh front page as being in publish 11.3 but it appears from personal observation that they are not. So I have spent the past two weeks travelling planets killing every type of NPC in the game trying to varify it myself as they would be awfully handy to have and I wonuldn't be doing that with one post that said, "I know we advertised them in this publish but they didn't make in it and will be in the next publish." or "yes they are in there as advertised"
the only real Issue I've seen them address is that yes the rebels got more loot in the publish than imperials and that the schematics were not intended to mass produce new stuff but be one-time use stuff. I find that less than fitting for the amount of questions and concerns but you feel they are doing a good job with it, it's obvious we disagree.
4. See if there is a way to tackle some of the incredibly long laste bugs to build up better relationships in some of the more volitile sommunity forums. (ex teh auto-pull issue for smuggler)
Some of the bigger bugs out there that have been around since launch are BIG bugs...they aren't easy fixes...so the Devs are trying to take care of some of them with a dedicated publish...the CU will address many of the big bugs out there...They are finally saying "We need time to focus on this, so we are setting our focus on it"...If they just worked on one bug here, someone would complain about them not focusing on the "bigger" issues over there...Everyone feels like the "bugs" that effect them are the most important bugs in the game and don't like it when other bugs get fixed, even though those bugs might be the "biggest bugs" to other people...
Go back through all the past publishes...look at how many bugs have been squashed...Also, you can't tell me that you haven't noticed a HUGE rise in bug squashes over the last couple of months...so again...another of your issues has been taken care of...
So looking back above, all 4 of your issues have already been addressed... no in your opinion they have adequately been adress but I disagree so if those are the things you'd like to see and SOE is living up to them, why aren't you happy because they haven't been adressed as you have claimed? because I can't get any of the good lot unless I'm a Swordsmen with an uber powerhammer that can outdamage the campers. Because I can't PvP as the proffession(s) that I want to play and am forced if I want to compete into a narrow template form. Because I keep getting told by those of the prestigious class that I'm not worthy of information though I pay the same subscription fees and I have no right to be frustrated because I have no idea what I'm talking about. Why am I not happy because each day i see friends leave and in their leaving email they same If "SOE can't tell me whats going on, then SOE can kiss my money goodbye" because everytime I ask what happen to this that you told us weeks or months ago I get called a flamer and chewed out by ALpha member somewhere on the forums.
I haven't seen auto-pull addressed? Where is it adressed? I haven't seen the temp stims adressed? Where is it addressed? I've killed 51 GDK in the past month without a single scale dropping.... is the proper drop rateratio for this loot? I can't find this adddressed where is it addressed? Factional base (last I checked) are still bugged not going vulenerable at there vul times. This has been the case for weeks. Where is the thread addressing this issue?
You know what would be fun, what if SOE (I'll stop using TH as it seems when I use him as the rep for SOE then I'm attacking him personally). What if they through up a bunch of concept art for all kinds of new weapons thsoe we are getting those we are not those that NPCs might have whatever. And ask if you had a choice of three of these weapons now what would they be, i don't know that maybe to mcuh but there's bound to be something they can do to get us excited rather than just telling us we should be excited. Take it for what its worth since its from one the "evil flamers" who have ruined it for everybody.
I actually made a suggested just like that for a possible upcoming Friday Feature (based off another post in our Community)...I suggested that the do a FF that shows at least 1 new weapon per combat profession that is currently scheduled to be added via the CU...leave out all the stats and such since they will need to be balanced...But show us pics, preferably sketches over ingame art (I think it's fun to see the sketches and then see how those sketches evolve into the ingame art)...So far the idea has met with support, but I haven't heard back from the Devs yet...TH has repeatedly told us that more CU features are coming...I just think he's waiting on approval to post them...
The sick thing is that the information is out there...it exists...
Well now I'm confused you said earlier that everything is in flux so that why they can't share anything, now you act like they can and again claim they don't because of us.
I just wish the Devs felt comfortable sharing it...Wonder how we could make them "feel comfortable"...
Message Edited by garvin on 12-15-2004 11:08 AM
Like I said take what I said for what its worth I'm the "evil flamer." Just wondering what you seek to accomplish by trying to embattled those who are unhappy. Are you trying to get us so mad we finally quit or do you presume to all of a sudden make us happy. I have nothing against you Garvin but you keep embattling me when I say anything, my complaints are with SOE and this is the only avenue available to me to voice those complaints. I actuallywish I didn't have to come to the forums but I believe that I have to and I have to make it abudantly clear that i'm not happy with how they have handled things, like i said earlier if I'm quiet SOE believe I'm happy with everything in teh game (reference Haden Blackman), If I say something I'm an "evil flammer" So I'll go on being the bad guy. I'd much rather be in the game right now then on the forums, i'd mush rather be chasing rebels around and killing a few and getting killed and rebuffing and doing it again.I long for the days of this game 4 or 5 months ago before the Jedi Wars began I long to play again a game that i fell i love with, until then well I guess you'll just have to keep attacking me as attack SOE and we'll all sing silly road songs and eat chex mix.
garvin
Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:41 am
#51
Rather then respond to everything and keep going around in circles where to differing opinion of the same situation will never meet, I'm just going to respond to the below bit....
Novock wrote:
The sick thing is that the information is out there...it exists...
Well now I'm confused you said earlier that everything is in flux so that why they can't share anything, now you act like they can and again claim they don't because of us.
To go into more detail as to what I meant...The Information is out there but that information isn't "set in stone"...everything the Devs have given us so far they've tried to protect themselves by saying "all of this is subject to change"...Even the docs they recently gave us that shared specifics on what the Combat professions are getting (actual numbers in there and certs) is "in flux"...They could share info of what weapons we are getting, but what if something goes wrong and they don't give us that cert...or what if they advertise a cert at Novice Commando and then move it to Master Commando...or what if they tell us we are getting a new weapon within Commando and then move it down into the Marksman trees, and beyond that, what if they find out that the weapon is too powerful in the Marksman trees and then move it back up to Commando...Flux like that is still happening...numbers are changing...specials are moving around...some specials may not work when we hit the Sandbox to test them (they are trying new things)...What if all the new certs haven't been given out yet and what if they aren't sure what one profession might get...if they post a doc saying what each profession is getting in the way of new certs, won't that one left out profession go APE that they have been left out (doesn't matter that by the time they get into Beta they'll likely have something)?
The Devs have tons of information they COULD post...but it's reactions that they worry about...and the past is a prefect example of exactly the route the reactions would go...Like I said, you only need to be bit once bythe dog to knowit isn't a good idea to try and pet him...You gotta workup to petting him by giving him littletreats to chew on...Eventually, when you feel like you can trustthe dog again, you might try scratching his head...
Basically the Devs are investing a lot into the CU...to them, they are making it out to be a "make or break" deal...they are slamming us left and right about sticking to the NDA and not sharing info...They keep telling us they will share information when the time is right...My guess is that they aregoing to time it around the time that the Sandbox goes onlinebecause, for the most part, the overall changes will be"set in stone" at that point...it'll be the numbersand specifics that we'll be crunching andchanging at that point...
TatterSalad
Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:26 am
#52
garvin wrote:
TatterSalad wrote:
I was just browsing by the Commando thread in search of my next profession after the CU, because I know that my current profession is going to get destroyed (Rifleman) and I seen this thread.
I can't really say much on Riflemanbecause of the NDA and because Waste93 is really the expert, but to be honest, from what I've seen, there are some really cool new features (one especially) coming to Rifleman that may make me finally take that plunge with Commando.
I must say I agree with several posters here. Why is to hard to ask for a reasonable time table of when the CU is going to atleast going to live testing? I don't know about anyone else that has posted recently but at my job, every project has milestones that have to be meet and with those milestones is a time table, and within that time table are dates that, that part of the project are to be compelted by. Now I know in every project that milestones are sometimes not meet by the date that was planed. However, the fact still remains that DATE'S are set and the milestones in MOST cases are completed within a very short time after the original completion date. So that being said why is so hard for SOE to give is an actual date range. Not longer than "this," but shorter than "this." It is completely unreasonable to assume that the project managers at SOE are allowing the team to have a flexible completion date of this project of more than 1 months time.
It's different when you are working in a software business. I've had that pleasure and I know what working with programmers is like. Some projects are a nightmare to estimate a narrow timeline on. You can try, but if bugs and other issues come up that take you away from your current project, delays are inevitable...combine that with the higher ups constantly "adding" to the project and you have more delays. So the programmers try to give a firm date of completion, the Customer Service person on the Forums reports that timeline out, bugs and additions delay the timeline and guess what happens next? SOE get's the holy heck flamed out of them...
When your company doesn't meet a date, do your customers come pounding on your doors and start bad mouthing you on various electronic outlets? If they did, and it happened a lot (since that's basically happens often to Software/Game companies), do you think your company would continue to publically release their timelines? They might, but they'd be likely to publish a wider scope timeline to try and be safe...
In a way yes they do. If the company does not produce product to increase revenue for the company then the stock holders (The Ultimate Customers) come knocking on your door. Also, in atleast the industry I work in (medical device) time lines are still expected to be meet reguardless of set backs. For example a project that I am working on is behind several months, yet we are still expected to meet the intial due date. This has happend on almost every project that I have worked on. Because the industry is R&D problems are going to occur more times than not. However, it is still expected that wewill make the time lines as planned. Now if a time line from time to time is not meet things can be altered. But in the case of this particular project (SWG) there is been several occasion when time lines were not meet. Atleast in the industry that I work in if you fail to meet your time lines more than 2 timeson anygiven project you are replaced. This is because you are jepordizing the overall scope of the project. Reguardless of the industry I feel that it is unexceptable for a company or projectto continually miss projected time lines they set. Once, twice, maybe three times ok. But anything above and beyond that is not acceptable, In my opinion it shows a lack of respect to the customer and the ability to complete a task. This is just my opinion.
Look how often TH get's flamed. People don't realize that he is just given dates that he passes on to us, but when things get delayed, he get's targetted specifically for the blame? SOE got tired of getting flamed over delays...it's not good for the overall mood in the forums and not good for their business, so they may the decission to stop posting timelines. The only way that is going to change is if people STOP flaming them regarding how long things are taking and try and look beyond the fact that a "delay has happened" to actually focus on "why did the delay happen"...in most cases, delays are actually because (1) There was some huge bugs/issues that pulled the programmers away from their projects (2) SOE decided to give into adding something new to the project (3) Something that may have been overlooked could present an imbalanced spoiling certain efforts and therefore must be added to the project (4) A Programmer underestimated just how long it would take to program something (for this one, remember that SOE is trying somethings within the CU that ARE NOT currently in the game...think "new effects"), etc...
I don't diagree that constantly getting flamed has to be annoying, but doing nothing in any case is not going to make the problem subside, it is only going to increase the problem. Which I believe anyone can see is happening now. Unfortunate for SOE and this game many players are leaving the game because of a lack of communication. In any type of situation where you experiencing problems with a product you are developing orrevamping, the worst thing that you can do is to cut off communication with the end user.
Delays happen...Flaming SOE over missing dates only makes them NOT want to post dates...and to be honest I can't blame them for that...A Minority of trolls have ruined it for the rest of us who cared less about things being delayed and tried more to focus on the causes of the delay.
I agree delays do happen and are to be expected, but if the customer does not put some type of pressure on the company developing the product then the product may never get completed on time. Also, SOE is a major company they should expect to get negative feed back such as this when time lines are not meet they said would be. I am not saying that problems do not occur, but the fact still remains a product was to be completed by a time line set by SOE not the customer, at which SOE failed tocomply with.
The key is to stop focusing so much on "timelines" and focus more on communications...If you knew WHAT they were working on, it wouldn't be hard to figure out the timeline on your own as well as find it more understandable when and why delays happen.
Again I agree with you that communications is the key to solving this problem that has arisen. But the problem is there is no or very little communication coming from the end with all of the information.
The problem we face is that we can't DEMAND they post the communications...demanding it or telling them we deserve to see them doesn't do anything to convince SOE that we won't repeat things that have happened in the past. The best way we can get those Communications is to prove to SOE we will take them in with open minds AND that we understand EVERYTHING is subject to change. To get what we want, we have to CONVINCE them things have changed. If I got bit everytime I tried to pet a dog, I'd stop petting that dog...doesn't matter if it goes to obedience school or the owner tells me it's changed, that dog has to prove to me that I won't get bit if I pet it again. How long would you keep trying to pet that dog who keeps biting you whenever you try? How long would it take you to learn your lesson?
Agreed. Demanding something is not a good idea, in most cases this almost always causes a rejection to the demanded. But I have read several posts across different forums of people "ASKING" that something please be released, and still nothing. This is not to much to "ASK" seeing is that we do pay to play the game. I do understand that if you don't want to deal with this hassel you can simply just stop playing SWGand play a different game, but I think most players like the game and don't feel that being ignored is a very effective response.
On a side note, someone that I used to play SWG with told me the other day that since the release of WoW and I believe EQ2 (Not sure about this one) that SWG has experience a customer loss of about 46%. Has anyone else heard of this?
Haven't heard that...As far as I've heard, SOE still has one of the fasted new player growth rates of any MMO game (of course the newer games may have changed that because, well, they are new, but when they settled down, it'll be interesting to compare growth rates).
PS...look who EQ2 is made by (SOE)...so any loss that SWG has to EQ2 isn't really a "loss" to the company...Other then that, look at Blizzards track record on Games, Customer Service, and Bugs...WoW looks very cool, but I've heard it has it's own HUGE issues and many people are already leaving...
Yea I know EQ2 is made by SOE, but if that is the tactic they imploy, that is not a reallyrespectable one. In my opinion, it shows that SOE is not concerned about customer appreciation for the current customer.
Overall, the main problem is that for the players who don't want to quit the only leverage they have is voicing their opinion on forums such as this one. SOE has all of the leverageand there is nothing that a player can do about it, except quiting. By cutting off almost all communications with the community and simply ignoring the community is almost like taking away the only leverage left to the players.
I don't know the exact numbers but I would almost be willing to say that if you counted the number of posts about the current issue of SOE not giving out any info. and comparing that to the number of posts that were posted when SOE did release info. but said they were going to miss the date they thought. You would probably find that the number currently outweighs that of the previous. Taking into consideration equal time lengths.
P.S. Garvin I appreciate the response. I have seen in other threads when a poster posts a message such as I did they are often flamed to death by the correspondant. From what I have seen in the Commando forum you take care of things very well. Nice Job keep up the good work.