Commando Archive
Thread: Making Commando more commando-y
Commandos are not stealth ninja types. The word comes from the Dutch and came into use during the Boer Wars. It was later popularized during WWII. The more correct definition of Commando is Raider.
Their main task is to do hit and run attack usually behind enemy lines. Cut lines of communication, destroy supply convoys, etc. They are trained to operate behind enemy lines for long periods of time and to be self reliant.
In SWG they are not any of those of course. They are presently Heavy Weapon Specialists.
The problem is that the two are no completely compatible. True Commandos due to their nature don't like many heavy weapons. The weapons are bulkier, heavier, and so is their ammo. All factors that slow down Commandos. Which as Raiders is something they don't want. Speed and ease of hiding is the Commandos friend. Also the problem of resupply makes true Commandos prefer weapons that use the same ammo. It's easier to switch ammo between them that way.
So what has to be decided first is which role Commandos in SWG should have. Is it that of the Raider or that of the Heavy Weapon Specialist?
If you want to go the Raider role then great. Add in the stealth suggestions as outlined by others. But you'll also have to loose the heavy weapons. It's kind of hard to be stealthy and hide in shadows when carrying a six foot rocket launcher that weights 50 pounds. 
If you want to go the heavy weapons route then great there too. Fix the existing weapons and add in some more. But you can leave out the stealth suggestion. It would also be beneficial if this is the case to rename the Commando profession to something more in line with the Heavy Weapon Specialist they are. It helps to avoid confussion by the players when they decide to go this profession and have certain expectations based on the professions name.
Message Edited by Waste93 on 05-15-2004 03:24 PM
MY PROPOSAL:
Column 1: Combine all 3 heavy weapons xp columns into one column, combining the HAR, FT and Heavy Disposable Weapons. I wouldn't even care if they added the xp requirements together for these 3 columns.
Create 2 new skill columns:
New Column 1: Hand-to-hand combat: To build on unarmed skills but it isn't just unarmed-it's offensive and defensive melee combat whether you're packing a weapon or not. These would be the things a commando might do if an enemy soldier got up in his face while he was shooting his carbine-instead of continuing to try to blast away, clock him across the temple with the rifle butt and on the back stroke jam the rifle butt up into his jaw, for example. This move would just be a quick double punch if unarmed. Of course, the difficulty of this the type of experience used to build the column. It would be much simpler just to have an unarmed combat column, which would be reasonable and acceptable also. This column should definitely build in some sort of melee damage mitigation.
New Column 2: Multi-weapons specializations: Build on the weapons we all built skills for in Marksman and cast aside once we hit commando. Add some sniper skills for the rifle, some tactical asault skills for carbine(which is essentially an assault rifle) and close quarter fighting skills for the pistol. These are the ways commandos actually use these weapons! Why can't we?
Column 4: No more 'grenadeer'. Demolitions Expert. This columnn should include grenades(which need greater range and larger stacks-like 10 maybe), as well as heavy charges for taking out bases and large targets and shape charges, like claymoor mines and land mines, for setting traps for enemy players, npcs and the occasional hunting trap. If we get all this, we should definitely have a pre-requisite of the trapping column in the scout profession. And this column should also be built with the same xp as that column.
Would these changes make us too uber? I don't care, but maybe. If we got all this, I could definitely see Commando having greater requirements like having to master scout along with everything else we do. At least that would shut up all the bounty hunters who whine about how they have to master 2 professions to reach novice and commandos only have to master 1. Then we could whine more!
Regarding the stealth idea: Excellent idea. Where to implement it in my proposed Commando profession? I don't know, perhaps in the hand-to-hand or unarmed column? Making it the 'ninja stealth column' so to speak. Or just make a 'commando item' which requires master level for certification-and equipping the item removes you from enemy radar, maybe even from line of sight, but it must have a drawback, like you can't wear your armor while it's equipped. Something crazy like that.
So there's my 2, 5, 100 credits or so! With all the great ideas out there about how to re-vamp the commando, we'll be lucky if they just fix the HAR and the grenades!
Waste93:
"Commandos are not stealth ninja types."
The major point here is that commando should be a combination of all our pre-reqs...which involves the pre-req for rifleman.
Who also are the stealthy persons of the game...then why should Commando be exempt? Also...as your put it, commando is more like a raider....raiders usually are stealthy until they strike...and when they do, they pack a punch...
Which is why we need Master Marksman and Unarmed....Rifles for Stealthy/sniping, Carbineers for that punch, Pistols/Range Support/Unarmed for the Heavy Weapons/defenses
I saw a bit of your history of snipers waste....snipers ingame should be alot like snipers IRL...cuz there isnt much difference.....but please don't try and compare RL standards of a commando to the ingame...as at the moment, neither of them are alike...RL commandos prollydont do half of the things SW commandos even do....instead take in regard for our pre-reqs (cuz they wont change no doubt)....we require 4 pre-reqs of Snipers/Assaulters/Pistoleers/TKA....hence we should be a combination of all those...plus our "special" hvy weapons and demolition charges (gernades etc) which would come from both our core profession, MM, and Ranged support
Of course...raiders IRL many times have all those attributes...so some RL comparison can be made....ONLY unless if they make it like I said up above. DONT compare the profession to RL, as we are going to drastically change with the CB...and perhaps after that a full-fledged revamp [As the devs dont want to touch us until after the CB]
Edit: Also re-reading your post again...There is a chance we wont be sole Hvy Weapon Specialists in the future....so dont compare us in our current state...this thread is to generate ideas to bring us away from that 1 trick role...and into something more that reflects ALL of our pre-reqs as I said above...and RL commandos may want to "shy" away from hvy weapons..but Star Wars ones dont..and this IS star wars
Message Edited by StarNick on 05-16-2004 12:30 AM
StarNick wrote:
Waste93:
"Commandos are not stealth ninja types."
The major point here is that commando should be a combination of all our pre-reqs...which involves the pre-req for rifleman.
Who also are the stealthy persons of the game...then why should Commando be exempt? Also...as your put it, commando is more like a raider....raiders usually are stealthy until they strike...and when they do, they pack a punch...
Yes Raiders use stealth to strike. Also speed and surprise. But when I saw the ninja stealth quote I see more of assassins.
Also part of the problem is there is no stealth in the game for anyone. Radar use makes it impossible. The closest ingame to stealth is MaskScent and the Camo abilities of Rangers. Plus ConcealShot. But all those only work on MOBs.
Which is why we need Master Marksman and Unarmed....Rifles for Stealthy/sniping, Carbineers for that punch, Pistols/Range Support/Unarmed for the Heavy Weapons/defenses
I saw a bit of your history of snipers waste....snipers ingame should be alot like snipers IRL...cuz there isnt much difference.....but please don't try and compare RL standards of a commando to the ingame...as at the moment, neither of them are alike...RL commandos prollydont do half of the things SW commandos even do....instead take in regard for our pre-reqs (cuz they wont change no doubt)....we require 4 pre-reqs of Snipers/Assaulters/Pistoleers/TKA....hence we should be a combination of all those...plus our "special" hvy weapons and demolition charges (gernades etc) which would come from both our core profession, MM, and Ranged support
Please don't confuse Rifles skill with Sniper skill. That was the point of the history lesson. Your pre-reqs should read Infantry/Assaulters/Pistols/Unarmed. My question is which version of Commando would you prefer? The real word version of Raiders or the SWG version of heavy weapon specialists?
Of course...raiders IRL many times have all those attributes...so some RL comparison can be made....ONLY unless if they make it like I said up above. DONT compare the profession to RL, as we are going to drastically change with the CB...and perhaps after that a full-fledged revamp [As the devs dont want to touch us until after the CB]
Edit: Also re-reading your post again...There is a chance we wont be sole Hvy Weapon Specialists in the future....so dont compare us in our current state...this thread is to generate ideas to bring us away from that 1 trick role...and into something more that reflects ALL of our pre-reqs as I said above...and RL commandos may want to "shy" away from hvy weapons..but Star Wars ones dont..and this IS star wars
Exactly. The point of my post was to get you to think which role would you prefer. That of a real Commando or that of a Heavy Weapon Specialist. Because they are not the same thing. Commandos has lots of potential. But I'm seeing it being pulled in two directions. One wants to make it like real Commandos while others want to make it Heavy Weapons. As for Star Wars Commandos not shying away from heavy weapons that isn't totally correct. Star Wars Commandos are regular Commandos. Star Wars Galaxies Commandos however are another story.
If you are pushing for both roles you may run into a fair amount of problems. To make it both ways you would have to add a fair amount of skills. Ideas of some have been listed here and make sense. However you also have to take into account how that is going to effect everything else. Adding skills to a profession generate more problems than adding weapons. But even adding weapons makes those professions that didn't get any resentful. Adding skills will be much worse.
Not saying I agree with that view. Just giving you a heads up. Commando has about the same number of specials as other professions right now. Not saying they are working. But they are there. What happens if you double it to make Commandos both roles?
Let me give you an example. As you probably know but others here may not know, I'm a Rifleman. Right now Rifleman is generally the flavor of the month. We've also seen many people calling for a nerf on Riflemen because they thing they are overpowered. But lets look at why they think this.
There have been no major changes to Rifleman in 6-9 months. Rifleman got some defense and accuracy mods as did almost all the other combat professions back in Jan. Other than that we had one of our specials fixed, ConcealShot. But that is it. So why did they become popular and why are they viewed as overpowered if nothing has changed to them?
It's because of changes to other professions. None of which were even combat professions. First we had stimpacks. They allowed easy healing of Health and Action. This left mind vulnerable. A pool the Rifle can target along with a couple melee professions, BH, and CMs.
Then we had Doc buffs. This allowed boosts to your Health, Action, and their sustats by over 2k points. Again it left Mind as the vulnerable target.
Mind buffs came in with a Dancer/Musician buff. However they do not last as long as the Doc buffs and can only double your stat. They are also more difficult to get. So this made the Mind stronger but still not as strong as Health and Action. But it had another effect. Rifle shots require Mind to use primarily. They also have a high cost. However with buffing the Mind pool and its subs you can lower those costs and make it easier to spam the specials.
Food buffs. Same as the Dancer/Musician buffs. It lets you lower the costs for using specials.
Armorsmith. New and much better armor came out. This gave incredible resists. Some up to 90%. The downside of armor was encumberance. But with buffs that was easy to take care of. However armor is vulnerable to stun damage. Stun resists on armor cap at 40%, so on average you can do twice as much damage with a stun weapon as another. But there are presently only about three stun weapons in the game.
As you can see, it wasn't changes to Riflemen that made them popular. It's changes to Medic, Doctor, Musician, Dancer, Chef, and Armorsmith that did so. It shows the law of unintended consequences. Something that could happen to Commando if you added a number of new skills. Just want you to think about not only the beneficial effects it would have, but also possible adverse ones.
PS: Have you guys heard anything about what changes are going to be made to Commando in the combat rebalance? All I've seen so far is "Wait for the combat rebalance" when asked questions about the combat professions. The other popular one is "The combat rebalance will fix it". Not a whole lot of info.
Would there be an interest in a history of Commandos similar to the Sniping history I did? I still have some of my reference books from when I was doing reenactments with No4 Commando. It would be shorter than the Sniping history and without the conclusion part. But I could do it in a week or two if there is an interest.
Message Edited by Waste93 on 05-16-2004 06:16 AM